The General Political Thread

[Duuring]

Yeah, I suspect the 'It's the EU's fault for not accepting we are a special snowflake that wants to have the cake and eat it too'-line will be pushed a lot by Brexiteers after the British economy tanks by -9%.

You could have avoided almost all of this by having a grown-up negotiation that kept the UK close to the EU bloc.

Ha. You could have avoided all of this by having a grown-up talk with eachother about the reality of leaving the European Union. How many times have you guys been told the deal you imagined cannot happen and will not happen? What, you thought we were joking the first 1200 times?

Instead you fucked Theresa May about much the same way as you did to Yanis Varoufakis.

No, you just have to accept that A. you fucked yourself with Brexit and B. The European Union doesn't own you anything. We could literally force a deal on you that makes Gibraltar part of Papua New Guinea and puts Northern Ireland on sale on Ebay if we feel that's in our interest.

Good fun, the Brexit vote is apparantly planned just before my birthday. What a present.

[DaMonkey]

We could literally force a deal on you that makes Gibraltar part of Papua New Guinea and puts Northern Ireland on sale on Ebay if we feel that's in our interest.

[doubt]

[Duuring]

I meant 'force' as in the only deal we'd offer. Although considering the UK suffers so much more economically and the political fall-out is so much bigger in the UK than it is within the EU, I wonder what we could away with.

[StevenChilton]

Meh, 'No Deal' Brexit will be bumpy but nowhere near as bad as -9%. In 20 years time EU politicians (if the EU is still a thing that is) will look across the English Channel at a very large economy and regret the fact that it was allowed to move so far outside the EU orbit.

The sad part about all this is that Duuring is Dutch, and the Netherlands is heavily exposed to Brexit, yet he's cheering on predictions of economic doom (predictions which have thus far failed to materialise). But if Duuring is right then his birthday present might be that he eventually becomes unemployed. I can imagine him sitting at home in Holland, welfare check in one hand and EU flag in the other, still ranting and raving about how it's all Britain's fault.

[Duuring]

I'm not cheering on predictions of economic doom. I have accepted that there is no positive end to this story. We're all gonna suffer, and nobody will benefit. Unless Brexit is of course reversed.

And yes, it is Britains fault. We didn't force them to become a member and we did not force them out.

I can imagine him sitting at home in Holland,

My home is not in Holland.

[StevenChilton]

I'm not cheering on predictions of economic doom. I have accepted that there is no positive end to this story. We're all gonna suffer, and nobody will benefit. Unless Brexit is of course reversed.

And yes, it is Britains fault. We didn't force them to become a member and we did not force them out.

The EU changed very rapidly in a short space of time. A lot of people, probably the majority of EU citizens given the referendum outcomes, were not happy with the changes. Then the Germans decided to fuck over Southern Europe, unilaterally open up the borders of an entire continent and make demands for an EU army.

Plainly Britain could never sign up to any of that. Before the referendum was even announced people in Brussels were arguing that a new relationship was needed with the UK.

[Duuring]

Good luck eating that cake.

[StevenChilton]

Good luck eating that cake.

K, good luck with the Germans.

[Riddlez]

losing co-operation in defence, intelligence sharing,

No. Britain will still be part of NATO and come on... just because countries are in the EU doesn't mean they share intelligence... this is not the Netherlands.
Britain has pretty much only have open intelligence sharing with the U.S. and to lesser extent the 5Is.

Europe will not be less safe because of Brexit in that sense, by any degree.

[StevenChilton]

The EU wanted Britain to sign up to the European Defence Agency, European Defence Fund, PESCO collaboration, and so on post-Brexit. They want British expertise for the EU military proposal and now that's all in the current Withdrawal Agreement.

EU countries do share intelligence with one another, but they could never set up their own version of 5 Eyes because it simply wouldn't work. Too many EU member states (whether it be their political, military or intelligence apparatus) are extensively penetrated by the Kremlin. Just recently an Austrian colonel was exposed for being a Russian spy for decades, and it was apparently a British tip-off that led to the exposure:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/12/british-tip-off-led-arrest-retired-austrian-colonel-charges/

[Svensson]

The problem with the EU is that the federalists strip power and self-governance from European nations for matters which they know nothing about.

It is troublesome when EU lawmakers wish to regulate our forest industry and our domestic hunting laws and gun regulations.

The longterm play federalists in Brussels is to wipe the borders clean and impose a central government in Brussels to rule all of Europe. This is becoming more and more clear.

[Riddlez]

Eu countries do share intelligence with one another,

Okay they do, but barely... France barely does it, because France does its own thing. Eastern Europeans aren't that good to begin with so little they can offer the rest of Europe.
Spain and Italy pretty much only share acute terrorist threats and military intel in combined ops.

Really intel is too closed in the EU. They're trying, and rightfully so, to break it open a little but it's very, very slow going.

[StevenChilton]

Really intel is too closed in the EU. They're trying, and rightfully so, to break it open a little but it's very, very slow going.

Yeah, for a good reason given the amount of Kremlin cock that gets sucked by EU member states *cough* Italy *cough* Austria *cough* Greece

[Riddlez]

Unlike what you seem to think, it's really quite uncommon for higher government circles to be penetrated these days.... most espionage work is focused against intelligence services and not the hardcore The Americans spy shit.

It's really not that glamorous... want movie-level intel shit? Go to counter-terrorism.

[StevenChilton]

Unlike what you seem to think, it's really quite uncommon for higher government circles to be penetrated these days

I never said it was common, it's far more the case that their military and intelligence circles have been deeply penetrated by the Kremlin. And I'm not saying it's anything like 'The Americans' that's just silly. But it is the case that political leaders in a number of member states are very close with the Russians. Berlusconi and Putin used to go on holiday together, Putin was a guest at the current Austrian Foreign Minister's wedding, also in Austria the FPÖ (a party currently in government) has a cooperation pact with Putin's United Russia, etc. You think French DGSE agents are going to risk their necks by sharing intelligence with that lot?