Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 529499 times)

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Offline Riddlez

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4245 on: August 27, 2018, 10:06:20 pm »
You could take a garbage book like Harry Potter and find archetypes that define Western culture if you really wanted to see them.

Underlined: if you define Harry Potter as garbage you either don't understand what it was written for or you're just a salty alt type trying to be part of a sub-culture by denying things.
Italic: That's because, tadaa, Harry Potter was written by someone raised by Western culture and thus stuck in the Western thinking. You bet you're going to find Western Archetypes in there.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Riv

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4246 on: August 27, 2018, 10:26:04 pm »


Like a physicist trying to explain quantum physics to 5 year olds.
Peterson is not that good of a philosopher,  pretty overrated and his obsession with Christianity is weird.
He doesn't call himself a philosopher? I wouldn't necessarily say he's obsessed with Christianity either, it's more so that he's interested in the archetypes within the bible itself, thus, he speaks from a psychological stance. If you watched any of his Biblical Lectures you would know that the Bible is more than just religious rambling, it provides psychological significance and an understanding of Western culture.
He doesn't but he criticizes post modernist philosophers as if he was one. I've seen people that study philosophy say that he actually doesn't understands post modernist philosophy. Bible itself is mostly just a religious rules. It is actually mostly ancient Greek (Aristotles) and medieval (Thomas Aquinas) philosophers that influenced Western culture. For example Thomas Aquinas read Aristotles works and used its philosophy to apply it into Bible. He took plain words from Bible and explained them with help of Aristotles. Every time you take a book you can find some deep meanings if you look hard enough and want to find them. For example there is debate whether Jesus claimed that homosexuals need help or is their way of life equally normal to life of heterosexuals. Theologians of course took something that Jesus supposedly said and explained it as if here he meant that homosexuals need help, even though those words could also mean the opposite, they explained it as it fit them the most or what they believed it meant.
You could take a garbage book like Harry Potter and find archetypes that define Western culture if you really wanted to see them.

I can agree with you in regards to his stance on post-modernism. I think most people view post-modernism as an ideology when in reality it's a description on what people are doing, (people losing faith with western modernity and beginning to reject it to replace it with values they have made up themselves) would be an example. However, I guess what he is eluding to is the people that start to believe in post-modernism (post-modernists) which therefore transforms it into an ideology of sorts. In essence, post-modernism is a form of uber skepticism deriving from modernism. More and more there is no longer a trust in institutionalized science and instead, structure is replaced by choice. People are starting to create their own form of logic and their own philosophies, an example of which would be transgenderism, the idea that an identity is now a commodity (you can choose what gender you are etc) and how the introduction of Bill C-16 is a threat to freedom of speech and therefore a threat to how we think. So that's sort of how I would interpret what Jordan refer's to when he talks about 'post-modernism/ists' and why he believes they are a threat. However, another way of interpreting people as being 'post-modernists' is not because they believe in post-modernism. post-modernism basically gives a prediction of the future, (people losing faith in western institutions and replacing conventional values with ones they've made up themselves), this is what is happening in Western civilization and therefore the people that are doing this are technically a creation of post-modernism if that makes sense. They are, therefore 'post-modernists', as they have become what post-modernism predicted. So that could also be what he means when referring to post-modernists.

I'd also disagree that the Bible is just 'religious rules'. It offers a perspective that allows one to find wisdom in how one shall face the world. I also didn't say that the Bible influenced Western culture, I said it helps us understand it. By that I mean it's probably a good idea to know the story of Christ's Passion in order to listen to St Matthew Passion by J.S Bach. Or that it's also probably a good idea to know that the within the context of art, believers in the early Christian church would use certain signs like the anchor to show that they are Christians. There is a difference between influence and understand.

Offline McPero

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4247 on: August 28, 2018, 12:34:52 am »
You could take a garbage book like Harry Potter and find archetypes that define Western culture if you really wanted to see them.

Underlined: if you define Harry Potter as garbage you either don't understand what it was written for or you're just a salty alt type trying to be part of a sub-culture by denying things.
Italic: That's because, tadaa, Harry Potter was written by someone raised by Western culture and thus stuck in the Western thinking. You bet you're going to find Western Archetypes in there.
I mean it is nice book for children I guess.
You could take a book written by someone raised in Chinese culture, you would still find them.

I'd also disagree that the Bible is just 'religious rules'. It offers a perspective that allows one to find wisdom in how one shall face the world. I also didn't say that the Bible influenced Western culture, I said it helps us understand it. By that I mean it's probably a good idea to know the story of Christ's Passion in order to listen to St Matthew Passion by J.S Bach. Or that it's also probably a good idea to know that the within the context of art, believers in the early Christian church would use certain signs like the anchor to show that they are Christians. There is a difference between influence and understand.
Well exactly purpose of religious rules is to help one find wisdom in how one shall face the world. Life rules is maybe better expression.
I kind of don't understand what is the purpose of him helping people understand Western culture, I feel like people in Europe that are well rounded already understand it and those who do not mostly are not interested and never will. I don't know how he could bring this knowledge to those people. Could you explain that?

I can agree with you in regards to his stance on post-modernism. I think most people view post-modernism as an ideology when in reality it's a description on what people are doing, (people losing faith with western modernity and beginning to reject it to replace it with values they have made up themselves) would be an example. However, I guess what he is eluding to is the people that start to believe in post-modernism (post-modernists) which therefore transforms it into an ideology of sorts. In essence, post-modernism is a form of uber skepticism deriving from modernism. More and more there is no longer a trust in institutionalized science and instead, structure is replaced by choice. People are starting to create their own form of logic and their own philosophies, an example of which would be transgenderism, the idea that an identity is now a commodity (you can choose what gender you are etc) and how the introduction of Bill C-16 is a threat to freedom of speech and therefore a threat to how we think. So that's sort of how I would interpret what Jordan refer's to when he talks about 'post-modernism/ists' and why he believes they are a threat. However, another way of interpreting people as being 'post-modernists' is not because they believe in post-modernism. post-modernism basically gives a prediction of the future, (people losing faith in western institutions and replacing conventional values with ones they've made up themselves), this is what is happening in Western civilization and therefore the people that are doing this are technically a creation of post-modernism if that makes sense. They are, therefore 'post-modernists', as they have become what post-modernism predicted. So that could also be what he means when referring to post-modernists.
Yes people ignoring scientific facts and most basic human tools like math is pretty problematic. I find (trans)genderism very interesting occurrence. People that support genderism are mostly people that are against gender roles and stereotypes (men play football, woman cook for example). I don't understand why they feel the need for social construct of gender since it has no purpose but to label people with gender roles, stereotypes and pronouns (since gender won't help a doctor healing his patient) which is what they are against. It makes far more sense to only have sex which is defined by science and let people live like they want to live, if a born man wants to dress as a girl let him but that won't change his y chromosome to x.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 12:37:10 am by McPero »

Offline Riv

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4248 on: August 28, 2018, 03:07:28 am »
Quote
Well exactly purpose of religious rules is to help one find wisdom in how one shall face the world. Life rules is maybe better expression.
I kind of don't understand what is the purpose of him helping people understand Western culture, I feel like people in Europe that are well rounded already understand it and those who do not mostly are not interested and never will. I don't know how he could bring this knowledge to those people. Could you explain that?

Mmm one that I can think of off of the top of my head would be when he talks about the Western individual. He states how it's not an accident that the axiomatic western individual (Jesus) was someone who was unfairly nailed to a cross and tortured as this is symbolises the idea that life is suffering and it's what the religious people have always been saying. I sort of agree with this, we all go through hardships in life and not everything is fair - people you know are going to eventually die, you're going to die at some point. So there are many reasons for us to be resentful. But what Peterson proposes is that although life is suffering, there are ways to reduce it. First, you accept it. Then you start with yourself, get yourself together so that when something bad happens you're not whining away and instead you can stand up solidly. Be a better person is basically the point, and that's a start in overcoming the suffering of life. On a side note, I just realized it's somewhat similar to the Stoic philosophy as well. So that's sort of one way how he meshes religion and the understanding of western culture together, but that was very brief also. The reason I think he's so successful is because in fact there are a lot of people who are whining away in the corner and are incompetent, and Peterson knocks sense into them, tells them to stand up with their shoulders back and take responsibility for their lives. He emphasizes the importance of the individual and pushes for self-improvement. So by him helping one understand why the axiomatic western individual is nailed to a cross, he can then help people understand how to better themselves if that makes sense.

Offline McPero

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4249 on: August 28, 2018, 01:08:45 pm »
Quote
Well exactly purpose of religious rules is to help one find wisdom in how one shall face the world. Life rules is maybe better expression.
I kind of don't understand what is the purpose of him helping people understand Western culture, I feel like people in Europe that are well rounded already understand it and those who do not mostly are not interested and never will. I don't know how he could bring this knowledge to those people. Could you explain that?

Mmm one that I can think of off of the top of my head would be when he talks about the Western individual. He states how it's not an accident that the axiomatic western individual (Jesus) was someone who was unfairly nailed to a cross and tortured as this is symbolises the idea that life is suffering and it's what the religious people have always been saying. I sort of agree with this, we all go through hardships in life and not everything is fair - people you know are going to eventually die, you're going to die at some point. So there are many reasons for us to be resentful. But what Peterson proposes is that although life is suffering, there are ways to reduce it. First, you accept it. Then you start with yourself, get yourself together so that when something bad happens you're not whining away and instead you can stand up solidly. Be a better person is basically the point, and that's a start in overcoming the suffering of life. On a side note, I just realized it's somewhat similar to the Stoic philosophy as well. So that's sort of one way how he meshes religion and the understanding of western culture together, but that was very brief also. The reason I think he's so successful is because in fact there are a lot of people who are whining away in the corner and are incompetent, and Peterson knocks sense into them, tells them to stand up with their shoulders back and take responsibility for their lives. He emphasizes the importance of the individual and pushes for self-improvement. So by him helping one understand why the axiomatic western individual is nailed to a cross, he can then help people understand how to better themselves if that makes sense.
I think Western individual is far more about believing that he has his future in his hands that he can advance in society to higher status which is also main tool for capitalism to run. Life being suffering was mostly medieval thing which kinda started to die out with Renaissance. Out of "Christians" right now only orthodox still follow this. While for example puritans made up USA mentality with predestination.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4250 on: September 03, 2018, 05:08:37 am »
Looks like it'll be 'No Deal' then, and Barnier won't be appointed as Juncker's successor after all.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45389610

Kinda funny to see a careerist politician panic as he realises his political career is almost over. Rather than be driven around in an expensive limousine and be addressed as 'Monsieur le Président' he'll now end his days in some shitty think tank. Might even have to peddle a ghostwritten book about how the Brexit negotiations failing weren't his fault (which to be fair they weren't since his only input was eating cake in front of the cameras whilst the civil servants did all the work behind the scenes).

Then again the EU does often reward failure so who knows?

Offline junedragon

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4251 on: September 04, 2018, 02:13:05 am »
You could take a garbage book like Harry Potter and find archetypes that define Western culture if you really wanted to see them.

Underlined: if you define Harry Potter as garbage you either don't understand what it was written for or you're just a salty alt type trying to be part of a sub-culture by denying things.
Italic: That's because, tadaa, Harry Potter was written by someone raised by Western culture and thus stuck in the Western thinking. You bet you're going to find Western Archetypes in there.


« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 03:18:47 am by junedragon »
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Offline Windflower

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4252 on: September 04, 2018, 02:21:54 am »
Harry Potter is a fine work of literature.

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Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4253 on: September 05, 2018, 12:04:27 am »
Quite the performance from Democrat protesters at the senate committee! Does anyone else feel nothing but secondhand embarrassment for those who were wearing outfits from "The Handmaid's Tale"? Good God.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4254 on: September 05, 2018, 02:20:18 am »
Does anyone else feel nothing but secondhand embarrassment for those who were wearing outfits from "The Handmaid's Tale"? Good God.

I personally welcome it. Makes a change from those people who used to constantly view politics through the prism of Harry Potter.

Offline Von Bergen

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4255 on: September 05, 2018, 10:00:41 am »
Harry Potter is a fine work of literature.

Offline Conway

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4256 on: September 05, 2018, 06:36:13 pm »
I've so for only had 1 of my 5 profs not mention Donald Trump in a negative light and its day 2, the fuck is that.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4257 on: September 05, 2018, 08:21:43 pm »
The truth.

Offline Toffee

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4258 on: September 05, 2018, 08:36:17 pm »
“I don’t know why they don’t take care of a situation like that. I think it’s embarrassing for the country to allow protesters. You don’t even know what side the protesters are on.”

There you have it. Donald Trump doesn't like free speech when it goes against him.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #4259 on: September 05, 2018, 08:43:20 pm »
“I don’t know why they don’t take care of a situation like that. I think it’s embarrassing for the country to allow protesters. You don’t even know what side the protesters are on.”

There you have it. Donald Trump doesn't like free speech when it goes against him.

I don't think Trump actually thinks that deeply about anything. His positions depend on his mood, who the last person to speak to him was, etc.