The General Political Thread

[Riddlez]

but, and correct me if I'm wrong, the actual fighting is still mostly done by guys with rifles.

While this is technically true there is much more to be said about combat than "fighting with rifles". The complexity of combat operations is incredible... The individual specialisations out there in modern armies are getting more and more complex in increasingly demanding environments... You cannot simply assume you give someone a rifle, some ammo and a little but of training and expect them to perform in modern combat.... it just doesnt work that way anymore.... This shows in the way basic soldiers get trained now... BCT in thw '70 was done within half a year... usually a 3 to four momths. After that they were immediately pressed into service for half a year.

The comabt trainings are still jhust as long but the current standard is to such an extent now that as soon as you come straight out of training, you basically know how to hold and shoot your rifle. At least another year of training is required until one is a fully functional member of the unit and able to be an individual and independantly operating soldier. Not to mention they have no actual specialisation when they come out of basic, that still needs to be trained.

Then there's the matter of officers. If you have a conscription army, you need conscripted officers. The minimum amount of training you undergo as an officer in the Netherlands is 1.5 years... and that is for combat service support unit. Go to manoeuvre and you're stuck to at least 2 years.... and that is for people who already have a bachelor. These days you need officers with a high intellectual capacity... The americans thought they didnt and are currently facing the problems with subaltern officer.... well.... basically being too stupid.
There is a reason the US cannot seem to fucking properly conduct stab ops.... a significant part of it is because its personnel is too stupid... combat isn't any less complicated... especially if you're fighting a numerically superior foe, you need to be the quicker, more smarter army... you cannot just beat a numerically superior foe by somewhat increasing your numbers.....

[Olafson]

You can still send all your badly trained conscripts into a trench or a fuel depot and tell them to defend it. Sure, they probably won't defeat a professional army, but at least they will make it harder for them to capture the thing. There is no point in guarding a fuel depot with professional soldiers, they are more valuable at the front. You are probably also assuming that the other side is numerically superior and has mostly well trained troops, which sounds off.

Besides that, unless your country is on an island (think the UK or US) and you are fighting a war against an enemy with the same technological standards as your own country, you will eventually run out of professional troops and you will not have the time to train new. You will be forced to use conscripts, as you simply will no longer have the manpower to defend yourself.

[Furrnox]

Just look at the Taliban they're beating back the Afghan government in rural areas and now controls more territory than they've ever had since the NATO invasion, even though ANA
and ANP have air support and some heavier weaponry. But then again the ANA and ANP is awful, riddled with corruption and desertions.

Both the US government (at least under Obama) & the Afghan government have admitted that defeating the Taliban is no longer realistic and so a peaceful solution needs to be found.
This is but one example there's also the militas in Syria, Iraq & Ukraine. So yes conscripted, militias etc can be effective.

[Duuring]

While this is technically true there is much more to be said about combat than "fighting with rifles". The complexity of combat operations is incredible... The individual specialisations out there in modern armies are getting more and more complex in increasingly demanding environments... You cannot simply assume you give someone a rifle, some ammo and a little but of training and expect them to perform in modern combat.... it just doesnt work that way anymore....

But that's exactly how it works in Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, Ukraine and nearly every post-Soviet conflict like the Nagorno-Karabach conflict and the Chechen wars.

This shows in the way basic soldiers get trained now... BCT in thw '70 was done within half a year... usually a 3 to four momths. After that they were immediately pressed into service for half a year. The comabt trainings are still jhust as long but the current standard is to such an extent now that as soon as you come straight out of training, you basically know how to hold and shoot your rifle. At least another year of training is required until one is a fully functional member of the unit and able to be an individual and independantly operating soldier. Not to mention they have no actual specialisation when they come out of basic, that still needs to be trained.

But you do not require optimal training in order to be reasonable combat effective. Olafson mentioned it as well, and although he puts it rather simple, it is essentially true. Not all militairy roles or even all combat roles require specialized trained soldiers. Look at the Dutch National Reserve, whose main militairy task is to simply free full-time soldiers for more important tasks then guarding a harbour.

Then there's the matter of officers. If you have a conscription army, you need conscripted officers. The minimum amount of training you undergo as an officer in the Netherlands is 1.5 years... and that is for combat service support unit. Go to manoeuvre and you're stuck to at least 2 years.... and that is for people who already have a bachelor. These days you need officers with a high intellectual capacity... The americans thought they didnt and are currently facing the problems with subaltern officer.... well.... basically being too stupid.
There is a reason the US cannot seem to fucking properly conduct stab ops.... a significant part of it is because its personnel is too stupid... combat isn't any less complicated... especially if you're fighting a numerically superior foe, you need to be the quicker, more smarter army... you cannot just beat a numerically superior foe by somewhat increasing your numbers.....

Again, you offer a choice between a fully professional army and one made entirely out of conscripts. That is not the only choice.

[Furrnox]

Ukraine still triggers me REEEEEEEE.

[Riddlez]

Hmmm yes it is true that I was only talking about manoeuvre groups... perhaps logistics would be a suitable role for conscripts...

[Duuring]

Logistics, (rear) security, deskjobs, technical roles, basically anything that frees professional troops from doing what they do best; actually fighting the enemy. You obviously don't use troops not trained for specialized combat roles in specialized combat roles. My dad drove a jeep to transport either officers or tank parts during his service.

But apart from freeing professional troops, it also creates a large back-up of easily mobilized troops, which at the same time makes it easier to set up resistance forces. If your country faces a risk of actual invasion, having conscripts to support the professional army and expand its defensive reach makes perfect sense and can be a reasonable cost-effective endeavour.

[Riddlez]

Mostly because conscripts are basically the State's Bitches by law.

[Duuring]

I don't oppose conscription even in the Netherlands, although I accept the counter-argument that it's much more effective to spend the same amount of money in just expanding (or repairing) the professional army. I think Lithuania has a pretty good model though, where they first conscript those who volunteer and only use random selection if they don't meet their target. I think they reached their targets by just volunteers for every year since the re-instation. There are plenty of people who are very much willing to support national defence without making it their career.

[Riddlez]

No use in expanding any military if there is no basis. It is not just the Dutch Military, the belgian military doesnt have a singel infantry battalion filled over 80% anymore... The french army has an entire division's worth of open applications (15.000), the german military barely has anything that flies anymore and the British aren't doing much better from what I have heard.... and those are the principal fighting nations of Europe (except belgium then). Greece is doing fine considering their armed forces ar for home defense anyway... and I really don't know anything about Italy but I imagine they're in pretty deep shit, along with Spain.

Scandanavia is doing fine from last I heard, so at least we have Denmark as a standing army...

[Duuring]

All Scandivanian countries, as well as Finland, use a form of conscription.

[Toffee]

British army has cut jobs in the past few years but is still one of the best in terms of training. Two aircraft carriers have also been built.

[Duuring]

There are various reasons why recruitment has gone down, though. Cutbacks, a bad reputation (The militairy is only in the news when someone dies or some accident happens), demographic changes and very low unemployment. The armed forces isn't the only organization looking for people, and it just isn't the most appealing to many. I won't be surprised if conscription becomes an issue during the next national election.

[Toffee]

Yeah the British army have been stuck on a 1% payrise for the last 8 years with the rest of the public services meaning they have had real term pay cuts due to the inflation rate. Considering they were already on low pay there isn’t much incentive past gaining skills for post-military life. I think most people view the army as a means to an end.

[Furrnox]

I can only speak for myself but I do oppose conscription because not only is it semi ineffective but it also more importantly violates my personal freedoms which I'd only accept being overwritten if we were in some kind of extreme crisis.
Which news flash Sweden isn't. I'd still support increased military spending though especially since Russia can't leave our airspace and waters alone REEEEE.