Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 529509 times)

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Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Now with fresh poll!
« Reply #2190 on: December 17, 2017, 12:00:59 am »
Guess it's time for a brexit poll

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Dunno why people are mad over this-Parliament can say either 'yes' or 'no' on the final deal. That's it. It's not really something you can say 'no' to anyway as it's either the deal on offer or WTO rules.

Or the UK has to negotiate a new deal and Brexit gets postponed.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 12:07:14 am by Duuring »

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Now with fresh poll!
« Reply #2191 on: December 17, 2017, 12:36:08 am »
Guess it's time for a brexit poll

Quote
Dunno why people are mad over this-Parliament can say either 'yes' or 'no' on the final deal. That's it. It's not really something you can say 'no' to anyway as it's either the deal on offer or WTO rules.

Or the UK has to negotiate a new deal and Brexit gets postponed.

Perhaps, although when it comes down to it Corbyn will whip his MPs to vote for the Brexit deal (probably with a bit of 'wish the deal were better, oh well' spin) as will May. Would take a miracle for Parliament to vote it down, after all they did vote 5 to 1 to trigger Article 50. If Labour had a competent Blairite leading it I think there'd have been a significant chance of Brexit being reversed. But instead it's Corbyn, who has been anti-EU his entire political career and we wouldn't have won the referendum without him. 

Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2192 on: December 23, 2017, 01:06:50 am »
https://www.facebook.com/help/1991443604424859

Looks like Zuckerberg has finally given into pressure from the EU and US Democrats (though it's no secret that he's never been the most steadfast fellow).

Offline Furrnox

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2193 on: December 23, 2017, 01:38:18 pm »
You say that like you want foreign involvement in your politics. Sure the Russians exposed the DNC (in an illegal way btw) but they also spread tons and tons of misinformation through different medias such as Facebook. They did the same thing during the French election to support Le Pen.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2194 on: December 23, 2017, 02:22:11 pm »
I don't mind public foreign involvement in our politics. Nothing would kill off electoral changes for a Dutch politician more then being endorsed by Putin.

Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2195 on: December 23, 2017, 02:30:00 pm »
You say that like you want foreign involvement in your politics. Sure the Russians exposed the DNC (in an illegal way btw) but they also spread tons and tons of misinformation through different medias such as Facebook.

Well first of all, I think it's shameful that a third party had to intervene and expose the criminal activity of the DNC and its politicians. As such, I hope we both share the opinion that such activities should have been much more widely covered by the American media, regardless of how the information was acquired (I understand that using criminal methods to incriminate an individual(s) is contradictory in a sense, but this is the DNC we're talking about, and think of the implications of such people holding one of the most powerful offices in the world). I don't believe Russia did hack the DNC in fact; government hackers as adept as Russia's certainly do not leave digital breadcrumbs.

As for the recent developments of Facebook, I ask that you consider this: is your political agenda more important than free speech? Historically speaking, AI-assisted crackdown of "misinformation" has always led to an Orwellian-esque crackdown of political views that oppose that of the platform hosting the AI and such opinions. The most prominent example of this is when Google rolled out its own AI to combat 'misinformation' and 'fake news' - then went on to wage to war against users and channels refuting Google's propaganda funneling through YouTube. Twitter used to do the same thing but has toned it down massively, most likely as a result of people from both sides of the spectrum ditching it.

They did the same thing during the French election to support Le Pen.

Let's be honest: there were far more ads against Trump and Le Pen on social media platforms than there were for. Overwhelmingly so for Brexit. The influence of Russia has been massively overstated.
 

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2196 on: December 23, 2017, 02:40:56 pm »
The right to free speech doesn't cover lying.

Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2197 on: December 23, 2017, 03:01:28 pm »
Correct, and I have no objection to the elimination of misinformation and fake news. It's when legitimate criticisms and arguments start getting brushed under the rug too that I get concerned.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2198 on: December 23, 2017, 05:50:27 pm »
So sue Facebook if it compromises free speech. We still have a rule of law.

Offline Edwin

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2199 on: December 23, 2017, 05:52:31 pm »
"Just leave the EU!", "Just sue the conglomerate!"

You have a fetish for unfeasible absolutes.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2200 on: December 23, 2017, 06:01:50 pm »
No, I have a fetish for pointing out that for many of your concerns there are clear legal provisions to protect against bad things and a track-record of about seventy years of protecting political rights through the rule of law. Facebook doesn't infract upon free speech until it does, at which point it can be legally forced to change its policies. Just like any other legal entity. Your concern should be by making sure that A. those legal limits aren't moved and B. rule of law remains a thing.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 06:03:29 pm by Duuring »

Offline Furrnox

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2201 on: December 23, 2017, 07:24:41 pm »
You say that like you want foreign involvement in your politics. Sure the Russians exposed the DNC (in an illegal way btw) but they also spread tons and tons of misinformation through different medias such as Facebook.

Well first of all, I think it's shameful that a third party had to intervene and expose the criminal activity of the DNC and its politicians. As such, I hope we both share the opinion that such activities should have been much more widely covered by the American media, regardless of how the information was acquired (I understand that using criminal methods to incriminate an individual(s) is contradictory in a sense, but this is the DNC we're talking about, and think of the implications of such people holding one of the most powerful offices in the world). I don't believe Russia did hack the DNC in fact; government hackers as adept as Russia's certainly do not leave digital breadcrumbs.

As for the recent developments of Facebook, I ask that you consider this: is your political agenda more important than free speech? Historically speaking, AI-assisted crackdown of "misinformation" has always led to an Orwellian-esque crackdown of political views that oppose that of the platform hosting the AI and such opinions. The most prominent example of this is when Google rolled out its own AI to combat 'misinformation' and 'fake news' - then went on to wage to war against users and channels refuting Google's propaganda funneling through YouTube. Twitter used to do the same thing but has toned it down massively, most likely as a result of people from both sides of the spectrum ditching it.

I don't think what the DNC was doing was illegal?? (If it was I'd assume the DNC chair lady would have been imprisoned?) Not sure though. Either way yes it's good that it got exposed so that hopefully something get's done about it, but I doubt it will.

Correct, and I have no objection to the elimination of misinformation and fake news. It's when legitimate criticisms and arguments start getting brushed under the rug too that I get concerned.

Yet you support Trump.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 07:26:34 pm by Furrnox »

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2202 on: December 23, 2017, 07:53:32 pm »
What are the odds on Catalan independence by 2020? Everything Rajoy does just makes it even more likely, Spain's PM is totally incompetent.

Offline Furrnox

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2203 on: December 23, 2017, 08:54:55 pm »
Same odds as Kurdistan (almost).  :'(

Unless the EU somehow decides to support Catalonia.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2204 on: December 23, 2017, 09:09:40 pm »
Why would it? It's an internal Spanish affair and the only ones opposing the rule of law are the seperatists.