Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 529477 times)

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Offline Von Bergen

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1485 on: September 05, 2017, 04:55:29 pm »
I think you're forgetting about all those generals and top military strategists Trump has at his command, lol. What few moves the US is going to make in regards to NK will be calculated.
Are these the same group of generals which coordinated Afghanistan and Iraq?
Let's not forget both invasions were excellently planned and executed. It was the occupation which wasn't
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Offline Riddlez

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1486 on: September 05, 2017, 06:16:58 pm »
I think you're forgetting about all those generals and top military strategists Trump has at his command, lol. What few moves the US is going to make in regards to NK will be calculated.
Are these the same group of generals which coordinated Afghanistan and Iraq?

Please, the failure of the Afghanistan mission was due to a failure in political strategy, not a military failure.
If you really want me to explain this I can write a small essay about this but I'd be happier not to.
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Offline Toffee

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1487 on: September 05, 2017, 06:29:06 pm »
I think you're forgetting about all those generals and top military strategists Trump has at his command, lol. What few moves the US is going to make in regards to NK will be calculated.
Are these the same group of generals which coordinated Afghanistan and Iraq?

Please, the failure of the Afghanistan mission was due to a failure in political strategy, not a military failure.
If you really want me to explain this I can write a small essay about this but I'd be happier not to.
I wouldn't have to write an essay. Former commanders have come out and openly said that British troops were inadequately prepared for Afghanistan. The chilcot enquirey even found that the British forces were ill equipped and planning was poor in iraq as well as the army being slow to adapt to what was happening on the ground such as the threat of IEDs. And Theodin the invasion went well sure, but that was only the first part of the involvement in Iraq. The military still failed to achieved their objectives during the occupation. Besides, fighting China and North Korea would be a whole different ball game.

I don't know if it was the fault of the generals, from what I've read much of the blame falls at the feet of the British ministry of defence but that links to the original comment of those who surround trump were still the same people who failed to achieve what they wanted in both Afghanistan and Iraq, which is evident if you look at the news.

Offline Edwin

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1488 on: September 05, 2017, 07:26:39 pm »



So I told Trump to get rid of all the illegal students in the US... he actually did it the absolute madman hahahahaha!

Offline Karth

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1489 on: September 05, 2017, 09:11:15 pm »
Ok.. if we are talking about US forces and their strategy in Iraq, militarily it was a success. Sustaining only the casualties they did and deploying and coordinating 100,000+ soldiers, carpet bombing cities then advancing with their ground and tank units, and essentially toppling the Iraqi government as a whole.  Politically it was obviously a disaster.  Same for the U.K. strategy (which helped with sortie missions and special forces)

Afghanistan was and still is a shit show.  Obama only made it worse with the 2012-2013 surge there.  There is absolutely no reason why our American military personnel are still dying over there, literally just 2 weeks ago there was another army guy KIA.  I know too many veterans who served there who wonder the same thing. 

Offline Toffee

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1490 on: September 05, 2017, 09:23:46 pm »
The thing is that you can't easily distinguish political and military success in this kind of situation since the military was the tool used to try and achieve a political aim. In Iraq obviously the supposed aim at the beginning of operations was to locate and seize any WMD within the possession of Iraq.

When none were found the objective changed. Since the regime had been toppled the main objective was to now deal with the insurgency and install a diplomatic government and leave behind a peaceful, stable nation. It was the military's job to enforce this aim and since it obviously was not achieved
, military success was not established.

Offline Conway

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1491 on: September 05, 2017, 09:55:32 pm »
With your logic Toffe, the 1940 German invasion of France and the low countries was a failure as it didn't end their resistance. See, how it doesn't really make sense?

Offline Toffee

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1492 on: September 05, 2017, 10:05:44 pm »
With your logic Toffe, the 1940 German invasion of France and the low countries was a failure as it didn't end their resistance. See, how it doesn't really make sense?
There is a big difference between a conventional war where the aim is to take land like in the Second World War and a guerilla war where the main objective is to kill your enemy. The military intervention in Iraq was a failure because they didn't achieve their mission which was to leave behind a stable country. Germany were successful because their aim was to conquer France, which they did. Now if their aim was to put down the French resistance then they wouldn't have been successful. You can't say Iraq was a success when the entire focus for the invasion ended up being futile.

Offline Conway

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1493 on: September 06, 2017, 01:00:17 am »
The U.S led coalition invasion destroyed the Iraqi army and capitulated the Saddam regime in 2 months. The mission was to remove Saddam from power and neutralize any WMD's. This was done and completed in two months. There was never a preset "We're invading Iraq to make it stable". The U.S didn't invade Iraq to fight insurgents, they fought insurgents due to their invasion of Iraq, just as the Germans battled the Dutch and French in WW2. Eliminating the insurgents and creating a stable Iraq became an objective after the main goal had been completed. The infamous "Mission Accomplished Speech" given by Bush was given after the defeat of organized Iraqi forces. Which is technically correct seeing the mission had been accomplished.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1494 on: September 06, 2017, 03:11:07 am »
The U.S led coalition invasion destroyed the Iraqi army and capitulated the Saddam regime in 2 months. The mission was to remove Saddam from power and neutralize any WMD's. This was done and completed in two months. There was never a preset "We're invading Iraq to make it stable". The U.S didn't invade Iraq to fight insurgents, they fought insurgents due to their invasion of Iraq, just as the Germans battled the Dutch and French in WW2. Eliminating the insurgents and creating a stable Iraq became an objective after the main goal had been completed. The infamous "Mission Accomplished Speech" given by Bush was given after the defeat of organized Iraqi forces. Which is technically correct seeing the mission had been accomplished.

Stabilising and re-building Iraq was an objective from the outset and part of the overall mission. If you don't believe me here's Bush and Blair during the invasion:

Offline Riddlez

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1495 on: September 06, 2017, 04:14:44 pm »
It is extremely obvious that soldiers were unprepared for the Afganistan campaign. No military had trained for insurgency missions before but were used to conventional, cold war threat.

really only once before has an insurgency in modern setting been quelled with relative success, and that was by the British in Malaysia. This did cost extreme amount of money and took them decades to achieve with an impossibly rigorous program. We are talking about the disaster that was the Afghanistan campaign and people blame the military, which is hardly fair. It takes more than 14 years to rebuild an entire country.

Also, Karth, the fact that soldiers didn't know what they were doing in Afghanistan is a systematic problem that is frequent in the U.S. military. The military leadership never seems to be willling to tell their soliders what they're there to do and why they should do it. It is a doctrine problem that enlisted men don't get shared the details of their mission because officers are unwilling to have to explain to their subordinates what it is they're actually fucking doing. the term "theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die" is way too prevelant in the U.S. MIlitary
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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1496 on: September 07, 2017, 06:57:14 pm »
Dennis rodman is our only hope for peace with North Korea tbh
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Offline Edwin

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1498 on: September 12, 2017, 05:45:39 pm »
For that money germany could invade poland a 2nd time.

Offline Earth Bby

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Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #1499 on: September 12, 2017, 06:02:50 pm »
For that money germany could invade poland a 2nd time.

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