The General Political Thread

[Duuring]

Yeah, let's focus on that, instead of the Nazi-like behavior of these Trump-fans. Priorities.

[Karth]

Lolll

[MrTiki]

What's LA, for the non-Muricans here?

[Theodin]

What's LA, for the non-Muricans here?

Unless I'm mistaken (didn't watch the video, either) it's an abbreviation for Los Angeles?

[StevenChilton]

Yeah, let's focus on that, instead of the Nazi-like behavior of these Trump-fans. Priorities.

What's Nazi like about their behaviour? They're fantasists who get together and give a 'heil Hitler' salute then go home and rant on the internet. Call me (or don't, as I don't really care about the US domestically) when they start arming themselves and act on what they say. The thing we should be concerned about is the SJW/Antifa lot who not only say a lot of evil stuff but also carry it out. Keep giving them a free pass and you will get actual Nazis as a response.

[Duuring]

What is nazi-like abour their behavior? I dunno, the Hitler salute and the 'Hail Trump/Hail our victory!'-thing is pretty nazi to me. But you're right, naturally, they're not the real nazis.

[MrTiki]

Steven for the love of god don't defend those scum. Say they aren't representative of the alt-right, or that they're extremists, or whatever else, but don't pretend they aren't modelling themselves after actual Nazis.
"Hail Victory", "Lugenpresse", wondering "if they're people at all". How can you not see that as anything but what it is? I don't care what your views are regarding the economy, rights, healthcare or whatever else, there is no way you can defend those people.
As for if they're armed, that was possibly even more stupid. You'd be hard pressed to find a single one who doesn't already own a gun, not that that's a big deal in the US, but you wanted to bring up them arming themselves.

As for doing things, white supremacists have been busy since 9/11:
31 attacks in 15 years from Muslim terrorists, killing 119 people.
81-89 attacks in 15 years from "far right extremist attacks" killing 106-158 (depending on how it's categorised).
0 deaths from Muslim refugees.
http://www.snopes.com/2017/06/07/threat-extremists-more/

[StevenChilton]

I'm not defending them, I'm calling them out for what they are: fantasists who play dress up and act big on the internet. By arming themselves I meant forming their own SA or whatever, of course your average American will already be armed to the teeth.

Those figures are true if you only look at the US and exclude Europe. 130 people were massacred at the Bataclan attacks alone, with two of the perpetrators having sneaked into Europe as refugees. Of course if the problem is caused by Islamic extremism, and if the Muslim population of the US is less than 1% of the total, then you're going to see fewer attacks compared to say France where the figure is between 7-9%. It's also difficult for ISIS to smuggle fighters posing as refugees into the US given they control their borders compared to most EU states which don't.

[Duuring]

By arming themselves I meant forming their own SA or whatever,

Yeah, let's assume that they're stupid enough to attempt a political tactic that is illegal and will immediatly lose them political legitimacy due to the obvious Nazi resemblence. Then again, if they can get away with doing Hitler salutes and the English for 'Sieg Heil' without people like you thinking this is something to worry about, somehow I'm led to believe people like you will even at that point continue to defend them ("IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE FORCED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES FROM THE SJW'S!!!11!") and state that they're not real Nazi's until they're actually shipping people off to the deathcamps.

[MrTiki]

I mean we were talking about white supremacists being an issue in the US, which they are. Don't start moving the goalposts with Europe, which is a whole different matter. It is undeniable that white supremacists are still a massive issue in the US. You may believe them all to be fantasists, but the fact that there are so many attacks which are directly linked to the far right should be reason to be concerned. White supremacists are not a recent phase that America is growing out of, nor are their killings.
Yes, recent attacks in Europe have caused great loss of life, even if it's still a tiny fraction of total deaths in any given country. But then we aren't worried about school shootings here, nor gang killings, police shooting at traffic stops and so on.

I missed the bit about collectivism before, but it could just as easily be argued that Trump now follows the same propaganda (America First, eerily reminiscent of Deutschland uber alles?), or argue the opposite, that Hitler was actually dividing the nation up into Us and Them (dehumanising them too), which again could be related to Trump (de jure Americans being called Mexicans, wanting a national register of a religious group).

I must say I still find it funny that groups which usually detest the establishment support an individual so wealthy and used to exploiting working people. Then again, I suppose they don't believe he'd ever turn on them, what with being white and all.

[Theodin]

By arming themselves I meant forming their own SA or whatever,

Yeah, let's assume that they're stupid enough to attempt a political tactic that is illegal and will immediatly lose them political legitimacy due to the obvious Nazi resemblence. Then again, if they can get away with doing Hitler salutes and the English for 'Sieg Heil' without people like you thinking this is something to worry about, somehow I'm led to believe people like you will even at that point continue to defend them ("IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE FORCED TO DEFEND THEMSELVES FROM THE SJW'S!!!11!") and state that they're not real Nazi's until they're actually shipping people off to the deathcamps.

Why is it that neo-Nazi's are (rightfully) disdained and suppressed when neo-Communists (with a much worse body count based on ideological history) are given an essentially free pass?

[Edwin]

Yes, recent attacks in Europe have caused great loss of life, even if it's still a tiny fraction of total deaths in any given country. But then we aren't worried about school shootings here, nor gang killings, police shooting at traffic stops and so on.

This is easily the most condescending and amusingly contradictory post you've made on this forum.

By your own logic "81-89 attacks in 15 years from "far right extremist attacks" killing 106-158" is a "tiny fraction of the total deaths" in the United States! Duuring's white guilt is impalpable in most of his posts, but you make absolutely zero attempt to hide your bias. You later go on to say that European terrorism isn't allowed to be brought up, as if European lives are of less importance than non-whites. Of course, you simply don't want it mentioned because it does not fit into your ridiculous rhetoric that white supremacy is a bigger issue than Islamic terrorism.

I missed the bit about collectivism before, but it could just as easily be argued that Trump now follows the same propaganda (America First, eerily reminiscent of Deutschland uber alles?), or argue the opposite, that Hitler was actually dividing the nation up into Us and Them (dehumanising them too), which again could be related to Trump (de jure Americans being called Mexicans, wanting a national register of a religious group).

You and this post are equally hysterical...

Hitler was actually dividing the nation up into Us and Them (dehumanising them too), which again could be related to Trump (de jure Americans being called Mexicans, wanting a national register of a religious group).

The difference being that the Jews hadn't declared holy Jihad on Germany during the 1930s and weren't actively sending trained mass murders into the European continent!

I despise people like yourself and Duuring who try to use Nazism as an excuse for inaction against extremists and groups of people that are of equal menace to society. You pick and choose who is worthy of victim-hood; Europeans are allowed to be murdered by people brought foolish into the continent by people like yourself, but we must be up in arms about murders committed by murderers born into a continent. Murders committed by both sides are equally vile from the perspective of someone like myself, but I warn you: do not fool yourself into thinking the latter is much harder to prevent than the former.


And I haven't even got started on the events happening in Germany this past week. More violence being committed by "NAZIS!!!!!" (this is their historically accurate behaviour, not your definition) being perpetuated by the... LEFT-WING.

[StevenChilton]

For the last time I'm not defending them, I'm saying they're no threat (Richard Spencer and the alt-right at least, I'm sure there's violent nationalists groups who are).

Trump isn't a collectivist, he's an economic nationalist. Always found this argument very compelling on Hitler and his version of socialism:
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/hitler-and-the-socialist-dream-1186455.html

There was very little that was conservative or right-wing about Nazism, it was fundamentally a left-wing platform. Hitler put into practice all the popular causes of the left in the 1920s/1930s: eugenics, antisemitism and related racial theory, state-sponsored social and economic programmes, the installation of a one party state (where both the party and the state were essentially inseparable) and so on. Hitler and his associates were extremely well-read on Marxism and considered themselves part of that tradition, it's just they rejected the international socialism of the USSR and believed it should be based on racial and national lines instead.

[MrTiki]

Gordo what on earth was hysterical? I genuinely don't see how you were able to misinterpret the tone of what I wrote to that degree.
If anyone's hysterical here it's you between the caps, exclamation marks and underlining. Pointing out similarities between Trump and Hitler was obviously facetious, which given that I argued both for and against I figured any moron would be able to see.

As for excluding Europe, again, we were talking about right wing extremism in the US, not Europe.
We were discussing whether or not the extreme right was a threat in the US, to which I responded that they had actually committed a large number of attacks, quoting statistics. I have no qualms admitting that there are plenty of issues in Europe, not least of which is terrorism. I think you have to admit that the US and Europe are in very much different situations, with Europe at far higher risk of terrorist attacks for a number of reasons including the porous borders, geographical proximity, cultural attitude and so on. Obviously I'm much more scared of terrorism than white supremacy mainly because I live in Europe, not the US (also I'm white).

Lastly, I don't use Nazis as an excuse for anything; (obviously) I hate everything they stood for. I always find it really weird that the right have this obsession with Hitler; half of them want him back in power and the other half want to prove that the left are all secretly nazi sympathisers. Both are equally retarded.
I don't get where you've managed to get these ideas that I think I'd rather Muslims kill us than Nazis, as again I've never said anything of the sort and despise both equally.
I also fail to see why you blame me for bringing terrorists into the country and claim that I decide who gets to be a victim. Obviously anyone who dies is a victim, which one might add extends back to colonialism, but that might trigger you a little too hard.


And Steven, I realise that there was a left-wing/socialist aspect to the Nazis (I mean it's in the name), but I don't see how that in and of itself is evil. An evil person will often do good things.
I may hate May for many reasons, but allowing those in care at home to pay back social care costs after their deaths is not one of them.
Hitler was evil because of the anti-semitism, the racial segregation, the mass slaughtering of innocents, not the aspirations of improved living standards.
Whatever your views on socialism and the welfare state may be, they were not the root of Hitler's evil, only a populist method of acquiring power (even though he probably did genuinely believe them). In economic strife nations will always look to the left, hoping to be looked after by the government, while in prosperity they will want to shrug free of welfare states, saying they hold them back despite everything.

[StevenChilton]

Whatever your views on socialism and the welfare state may be, they were not the root of Hitler's evil, only a populist method of acquiring power (even though he probably did genuinely believe them). In economic strife nations will always look to the left, hoping to be looked after by the government, while in prosperity they will want to shrug free of welfare states, saying they hold them back despite everything.

They were actually. The left conveniently forgets the fact that in the inter-war period it was at the forefront of promoting eugenics which was the intellectual underpinning of Hitler's murders. Just about every socialist thinker of note during that period (Bertrand Russell, George Bernard Shaw, William Beveridge, Harold Laski, Beatrice Webb etc the list is endless) said some pretty f*cked up things regarding their support for eugenics, though granted most didn't advocate murder merely mass sterilisations, forced abortions and selective breeding programmes. Seriously, read it for yourself:

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/left/eugenics.html (<-- especially good, if you only read one make it this)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/17/eugenics-skeleton-rattles-loudest-closet-left
http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2010/12/british-eugenics-disabled

Leftist newspapers also pushed eugenics. It's in the links above but I always found this quote from the New Statesman in July 1931 encapsulated the situation perfectly:
"The legitimate claims of eugenics are not inherently incompatible with the outlook of the collectivist movement. On the contrary, they would be expected to find their most intransigent opponents amongst those who cling to the individualistic views of parenthood and family economics."

The modern left likes to snigger about that one time when the Daily Mail gave Oswald Mosley a positive headline but strangely doesn't like to recall that around the same time The Guardian was pushing eugenics and the mass sterilisation of the poor and disabled.
Eugenics had some narrow support on the right too but for the most part conservatives strongly pushed back against it (with help from one or two working class Labour MPs I should add who rightly viewed Fabian Socialism with suspicion).

Eugenics was an evil ideology but collectivists at the time thought it was for the greater good of society as a whole and therefore justifiable. The left has always been utopian and that lends itself to the kind of thinking whereby doing a little evil is 'fine' if it gets you closer to that perfect future which is always just around the corner. Truth is that utopia doesn't exist, you can never get there so all you're left with is the bloodshed and nothing to show for it.