Why did Saxony betray Napoleon in the Battle of Nations?

[Archduke Sven]

Most people tend to forget that Napoleon had already lost 50% of his army by the time he got to Borodino, the soldiers, mostly Germans, deserted on the way there...

So the Grenadier battalion that your ancestor server in was probably already down to less than 200 by the time they got to Borodino.

[Hadhod]

Yes I am saying that Duuring because Napoleon had parts of his armies garrisoned in Saxony. Saxony fielded up to 30.000 men under Napoleon. They couldn't raise much more men than that. Hence they couldn't rebel on their own, only after the allied troops won decisive against Napoleon at Leipzig where it was clear to see that Napoleon would be forced to retreat out of Saxony and later on Germany aswell.

[Duuring]

Saxony threw in her lot with France, until, at the battle of Leipzig, they realized they could get a much better deal fighting for the other side. Bavaria did the same, even though they liked Napoleon quite a bit more then they liked Austria. They did what was best for themselves. Had Leipzig been won, they would have stayed with Napoleon.

Hatred or love have very little to do with national politics. Your statement of 'They wanted to rebel!' is based on nationalistic pride, not hard facts.

[Hadhod]

It is a fact that the german population did not like to be ruled by frenchmen. In the first years of occupation they though Napoleon would let Germany be recreated under his rule but the Rheinbund and all the other small states he kept taught them otherwise. So basically Napoleon woke the german thoughts of a united Germany by occupieing half of Germany. I am sure you know for example the poet Theodor Körner, he was born in Saxony and served under Napoleon but went over to the allies even before 1813 cause he wanted to free his country from occupation. Of course nationalistic pride played a role in that. The 3.000 Saxons who changed sides during the battle could have easily surrendered if they wanted. But no they turned around and now fought against the french. Of course it was partially influenced by the fact that the allies were gaining the upperhand (it was already the 19th of Octobre so the fights were already going on for several days and it was clear that Napoleon would lose). As I said, if Napoleon wouldn't have lost in Leipzig Saxony would have been still occupied and those troops would have never switched sides.

[Duuring]

There's a very broad area between 'dislike' and 'wanting to rebel'.

Those Saxon soldiers had sworn an oath to serve Saxony and the Saxon King, and that's what they did. Surrendering would be a breach on their personal honour, especially if it was a cowardly act as surrendering to the enemy on their own terms.

[Archduke Sven]

What?

The Confederation of the Rhine was pretty well liked from what i heard, they got modern thoughts into their states, and were aided by the French economically, all they had to do was supply soldiers to the French, but they would have to do that anyways for protection of the country, only difference was that they served French commanders. And there was no such thing as occupation in Saxony until 1813, but that was just because the army was stationed there due to the fact there was a campaign going on there. Before that Saxony had always been the most independent of the Rhine Confederation states, along with Bavaria.

Also i think it is pretty obvious who is going to win when it is 200 000 vs. 400 000, in fact many of the German soldiers had already tried selling away their weapons and equipment on the eve of battle saying that they wouldn't fight anyways and would surrender immediatly.

The German states switching sides had very little to do with Nationalism, barely any. It had overwhelmingly to do with the fact that everyone was just trying to get a better outcome for themselves after the war, instead of being annexed by power hungry countries such as Austria or Prussia.

[Hadhod]

So if you all call them cowards please tell me more about what you guys would have done in their position.  Stood there, fought bravely for a lost war and eventually died for a power hungry monarch that never cared for the germans (so yourself) before?

[Duuring]

Where does he claim they were cowards?

It had overwhelmingly to do with the fact that everyone was just trying to get a better outcome for themselves after the war, instead of being annexed by power hungry countries such as Austria or Prussia.

This is pretty much what it comes down too.

[Archduke Sven]

So if you all call them cowards please tell me more about what you guys would have done in their position.  Stood there, fought bravely for a lost war and eventually died for a power hungry monarch that never cared for the germans (so yourself) before?

Well it is pretty self-explanatory that when you go into an alliance, you're supposed to stay with your ally to the end, well if you want to be 'honorable' i guess.

Personally, if i was in the position of the King of Saxony, i would probably have done the same thing, had i known that my nation would have been spared after the war, but there is always a risk that the alliance you turncoat for, will turn on you and strike you when you have lost your strongest ally.

And Napoleon had cared for the Germans, quality of living there had gone up immensively, for example him abolishing ghettos and introducing the Code Napoleon, which is still in use in countries like Belgium today.

Anyways, i was just trying to explain that the Saxons or other German states didn't turncoat because of Nationalism, it was simply because their leaders wanted to keep their lands and keep living their lavish lives.

[Johan]

So if you all call them cowards please tell me more about what you guys would have done in their position.  Stood there, fought bravely for a lost war and eventually died for a power hungry monarch that never cared for the germans (so yourself) before?

Well it is pretty self-explanatory that when you go into an alliance, you're supposed to stay with your ally to the end, well if you want to be 'honorable' i guess.

Personally, if i was in the position of the King of Saxony, i would probably have done the same thing, had i known that my nation would have been spared after the war, but there is always a risk that the alliance you turncoat for, will turn on you and strike you when you have lost your strongest ally.

And Napoleon had cared for the Germans, quality of living there had gone up immensively, for example him abolishing ghettos and introducing the Code Napoleon, which is still in use in countries like Belgium today.

Anyways, i was just trying to explain that the Saxons or other German states didn't turncoat because of Nationalism, it was simply because their leaders wanted to keep their lands and keep living their lavish lives.

Italy switched sides before World War I begun and they won the war and got their lands back from Austria. Had they stayed in the Alliance with Austria and Germany that Italy had before the war it would've most likely been crushed by Anglo-French forces and lost territories.

Same thing applied to Saxony before the Battle of Leipzig, either die for an "honourable" cause or switch sides and preserve your country. However after your country was destroyed and in ruins and the "honourable" monarch died history would forget about him, however if the country got preserved it would survive and continue as a nation which everyone knows.

[Docm30]

Saxony's betrayal had nothing to do with German "nationalistic pride" as such a thing did not exist. There was no notion of a German nation in the Napoleonic era. That developed later in the 19th century. The Germanic states despised each other and warred constantly. Prussia was especially known for their dislike of other Germanic states. There was Saxon nationalism, Prussian nationalism, and Bavarian, and Austrian and so forth, but few people seemed to have desired a united German nation. Von Schill tried to stir up Germanic pride and was ignored as Prussian rebel.

In short, people associated themselves with their state, not their ethnicity.

Saxony threw in her lot with France, until, at the battle of Leipzig, they realized they could get a much better deal fighting for the other side. Bavaria did the same, even though they liked Napoleon quite a bit more then they liked Austria. They did what was best for themselves. Had Leipzig been won, they would have stayed with Napoleon.

That wouldn't have done either one much good, Saxony having changed sides during the battle and Bavaria having declared war on France two days before it started. I doubt Bavaria could have passed their declaration of war off as a practical joke.

[Duuring]

It was more of a hypothetical situation.

Bavaria having declared war on France two days before it started

I was under the impression they did it about a week after Leipzig. My bad.