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Author Topic: The War of 1812 Historic Discussion [New Poll!]  (Read 21848 times)

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Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2014, 09:41:29 pm »
The US goal of the war wasn't to take Canada

Uhm...Yes it was. Sure, it's claimed that they started a war because they were tired of the British navy pressing 'Americans' into their service, but the only thing they did was apprehend British deserters and this had pretty much stopped as the war was ending. Another reason is trade blockades but those had also been lifted just before the war.

By no stretch of the imagination was the goal of the war to take Canada. That's a myth perpetrated by Canada after the war to over-glorify their victory. Invading Canada was intended as a tool to weaken Britain in order to force them to accept terms pressed upon them by America.

From the internet:

Spoiler
There were several immediate stated causes for the U.S. declaration of war. First, a series of trade restrictions called the Orders in Council (1807) introduced by Britain to impede American trade with France, a country with which Britain was at war; the U.S. contested these restrictions as illegal under international law.[2] Second, the impressment (forced recruitment) of U.S. citizens into the Royal Navy. Third, the alleged British military support for American Indians who were offering armed resistance to the United States.[3] An unstated but powerful motivation for the Americans was the need to uphold national honor in the face of British insults (such as the Chesapeake affair.)

Historians have considered the idea that American expansionism was one cause of the war. The American expansion into the Northwest was being blocked by Indians and that was a major cause. More problematic is the question whether an American war goal was to acquire Canadian lands (especially western Ontario), or whether it was planned to seize the area temporarily as a bargaining chip. The American desire for Canadian land has been a staple in Canadian public opinion since the 1830s, and was much discussed among historians before 1940, but is rarely cited by experts any more.
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Offline Price

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2014, 09:43:48 pm »
Al Qaeda won.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2014, 09:44:32 pm »
So what did the US intend to gain with the war?

"We're gonna take Canada, and then British will be forced to trade with us! HA!"

Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2014, 09:48:50 pm »
Please read more into the subject before making wild claims and coming to conclusions solely based on things you're reading in the thread.

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812#American_goals

Offline Aiello

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2014, 10:23:44 pm »
Uhm...Yes it was. Sure, it's claimed that they started a war because they were tired of the British navy pressing 'Americans' into their service, but the only thing they did was apprehend British deserters and this had pretty much stopped as the war was ending. Another reason is trade blockades but those had also been lifted just before the war.

I'm sorry but this is absolutely incorrect, it was noted by the American government during the war and is accepted by virtually every historian who has studied the topic. The expansion sought by America was in Indian territory, the possibility of American annexation of sovereign British territory was only thought of after parts of Canada had been occupied. Even then, it is still disputed and is widely agreed that America sought to use occupied land as a bargaining chip in a war that had become a stalemate. And the so called 'claims' that you mentioned were cover-up reasons for starting the war are in fact the real reasons. The British had breached a special trading relationship that had existed between the United States, formerly British America, and was only interrupted by the American War of Independence previously. Even though Britain and America had fought a war, the consensus of most Americans, especially New Englanders, was that America should closely align with Britain as opposed to other powers like France.

Note that America had been involved in several wars before the War of 1812 where America believed her maritime rights were being violated so its not out of the ordinary for America to declare war for these reasons.

Offline George385

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2014, 10:25:11 pm »
Please read more into the subject before making wild claims and coming to conclusions solely based on things you're reading in the thread.

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812#American_goals

Not sure if srs about link.

Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2014, 10:28:03 pm »
Please read more into the subject before making wild claims and coming to conclusions solely based on things you're reading in the thread.

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812#American_goals

Not sure if srs about link.

Completely serious. What do you find objectionable within the article?

Offline George385

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2014, 10:41:10 pm »
Please read more into the subject before making wild claims and coming to conclusions solely based on things you're reading in the thread.

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812#American_goals

Not sure if srs about link.

Completely serious. What do you find objectionable within the article?

its Wikipedia, on the reasons for 1812, and its why America was in it. meaning anyone could have written it, and is probably written by some wannabe historian in the states, someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2014, 10:41:44 pm »
Please read more into the subject before making wild claims and coming to conclusions solely based on things you're reading in the thread.

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812#American_goals

Not sure if srs about link.

Completely serious. What do you find objectionable within the article?

its Wikipedia, on the reasons for 1812, and its why America was in it. meaning anyone could have written it, and is probably written by some wannabe historian in the states, someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Oh boy, another person who still thinks wikipedia is unreliable. Check the citations if you really must. It's all accurate information, and you could find the same things written elsewhere.

Offline George385

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2014, 10:54:41 pm »
Please read more into the subject before making wild claims and coming to conclusions solely based on things you're reading in the thread.

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_War_of_1812#American_goals

Not sure if srs about link.

Completely serious. What do you find objectionable within the article?

its Wikipedia, on the reasons for 1812, and its why America was in it. meaning anyone could have written it, and is probably written by some wannabe historian in the states, someone who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Oh boy, another person who still thinks wikipedia is unreliable. Opinion immediately discarded.

Wikipedia is a very unreliable source, kids in Australia, if they have Wikipedia in their bibliography, they are penalized marks, no matter how true or false the piece of information was. Wikipedia is a site where anyone who has internet can contribute to the site, any person who says that is okay and doesn't effect the reliability isn't very intelligent.

history channel as well is quite an unreliable source, sometimes they have good stuff and sometimes they have programs completely full of bullshit. that's the exact case with Wikipedia, its good for finding out the outlines and a brief description of a war or even a battle in history, but going in-depth with a delicate matter like 1812 and what the reasons were for war for both sides is not something you want Wikipedia to answer, it will be a complete subjective opinion probably by some redneck.

Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2014, 11:07:24 pm »
Yes, it is not allowed as a source in schools because anyone can edit it and because encyclopedias in general are not accepted. That doesn't mean it's inaccurate - it just means that due to the format of the publication it can't be 100% verified. This was a rule made back in the early days of the internet when wikipedia was first created and it had a rather bad reputation for these things, but since then, and especially in recent years it has stepped up its game to such a level that anyone could get away with citing a wikipedia article in school and no teacher would be able to tell the difference. It is only a matter of principle at this point. Notice how all claims and points made in the article are cited, and there's a massive list of references at the bottom of the page. Wikipedia officially employs hundreds of editors and janitors to keep the pages neat and accurate, and thousands of other volunteers mark claims without sources with the tags [citation needed]. Any article without a warning at the top of the page that says something like "This article lacks citations and therefore wikipedia cannot verify its authenticity" is accurate. Random editing of wikipedia pages is far rarer than you'd think. The only people who write wikipedia pages are those who have the time and knowledge to do so, and so the vast majority of articles are perfectly source-able.

Here is the biography of the person who wrote most of the article I linked:

Spoiler
Since taking a PhD at Yale in 1966, I have been an active historian, with numerous books, articles and papers on quite a variety of themes, especially American political, social, military and economic history, as well as historiography and quantitative and computer methods. Since 1971 I have authored, coauthored or edited 21 scholarly or popular books, and written 45 scholarly articles. My most recent popular books I served as well on the editorial boards of six scholarly journals such as the Journal of American History and the American Journal of Sociology and have been a permanent or visiting professor at U Illinois-Chicago, Washington U, U. Michigan, Harvard U, West Point, Moscow State (in Russia), etc. Currently I am retired from teaching and am a Research Professor at Montana State University, Billings, Montana, USA. Here's the favorite book I've written: The Winning of the Midwest: 1888-1896 (1971), online free.
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tl;dr Wikipedia is a perfectly fine source and generally the only people object to it in an argument are those who stand to lose by accepting it.

Offline Allasaphore

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2014, 05:57:59 pm »
Nipplestockings, this article (from the Spanish Wikipedia) seems to indicate that the USA declared war to invade Canada (among the other reasons for war discussed in this thread). I've decided to leave the webpage here for you all to do with as you please.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerra_anglo-estadounidense_de_1812

EDIT: The American Declaration of War (June 18, 1812) dos not explicitly mention a cause for the war. http://research.archives.gov/description/299950
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 06:02:18 pm by Allasaphore »

Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2014, 06:05:08 pm »
Nipplestockings, this article (from the Spanish Wikipedia) seems to indicate that the USA declared war to invade Canada (among the other reasons for war discussed in this thread). I've decided to leave the webpage here for you all to do with as you please.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerra_anglo-estadounidense_de_1812

It's merely a less complete translation of the English version without sources or explanations to back up their claims. Note the disclaimer at the top - this is an example of a bad wikipedia article. Invading Canada was indeed part of America's strategy to force Britain to accept terms laid out by the American government, but annexation was not part of the war goal. Surely there were some in the United States who favored an extended occupation of Canadian territory to strain Britain's resources and humiliate them, but I don't think a full forced cessation of Canada by Britain was ever considered a possibility nor a goal.

Offline junedragon

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2014, 06:23:37 pm »
The US goal of the war wasn't to take Canada

Uhm...Yes it was. Sure, it's claimed that they started a war because they were tired of the British navy pressing 'Americans' into their service, but the only thing they did was apprehend British deserters and this had pretty much stopped as the war was ending. Another reason is trade blockades but those had also been lifted just before the war.

By no stretch of the imagination was the goal of the war to take Canada. That's a myth perpetrated by Canada after the war to over-glorify their victory. Invading Canada was intended as a tool to weaken Britain in order to force them to accept terms pressed upon them by America.

From the internet:

Spoiler
There were several immediate stated causes for the U.S. declaration of war. First, a series of trade restrictions called the Orders in Council (1807) introduced by Britain to impede American trade with France, a country with which Britain was at war; the U.S. contested these restrictions as illegal under international law.[2] Second, the impressment (forced recruitment) of U.S. citizens into the Royal Navy. Third, the alleged British military support for American Indians who were offering armed resistance to the United States.[3] An unstated but powerful motivation for the Americans was the need to uphold national honor in the face of British insults (such as the Chesapeake affair.)

Historians have considered the idea that American expansionism was one cause of the war. The American expansion into the Northwest was being blocked by Indians and that was a major cause. More problematic is the question whether an American war goal was to acquire Canadian lands (especially western Ontario), or whether it was planned to seize the area temporarily as a bargaining chip. The American desire for Canadian land has been a staple in Canadian public opinion since the 1830s, and was much discussed among historians before 1940, but is rarely cited by experts any more.
[close]

Let's go through this (putting aside arguments over the lack of credibility in wikipedia articles for a moment).

First, you said "That's a myth perpetrated by Canada" in regards to the goal of the war being to take Canada.
But then in your quote you use as evidence for your claims (well wikipedia's quote but whatever), "you" say, "There were several immediate stated causes for the U.S. declaration of war.", the key word here being "stated" (bold added for emphasis). So first you accuse Canada/Canadian historians of acting purely out of bias, then openly accept without questioning the reasoning the US gave when it started the war? Don't you think there might be a bit of bias/misinformation surrounding a war declaration?

Further, let's accept that the US claim that the goal was to capture Canada as a temporary bargaining chip (as your quote asserts). Even if this was the case, this still means that the US for all intents and purposes failed their objective as they failed to make any substantial gains in British North America/Canada.

The only major assertion you are making was that the US did not plan to *keep* the land once they took it, but rather use it as a bargaining chip to affect British policy. However this is irrelevant to the question of who won the war as the US failed to seize the area in the first place and thus was unable to keep it or hold it temporarily to barter with whatever their intent may have been.

"However, historian J. C. A. Stagg states that, "... had the War 1812 been a successful military venture, the Madison administration would have been reluctant to have returned occupied Canadian territory to the enemy".[28] Other authors concur, one stating, "Expansion was not the only American objective, and indeed not the immediate one. But it was an objective",[29] and that "The American yearning to absorb Canada was long-standing...In 1812 it became part of a grand strategy".[30] Another suggests that "Americans harboured 'manifest destiny' ideas of Canadian annexation throughout the nineteenth century".[31] A third states that "[t]he [American] belief that the United States would one day annex Canada had a continuous existence from the early days of the War of Independence to the War of 1812 [and] was a factor of primary importance in bringing on the war".[32] Another says that " acquiring Canada would satisfy America's expansionist desires" .[33] Historian Spencer Tucker tells us that "War Hawks were eager to wage war with the British, not only to end Indian depredations in the Midwest but also to seize Canada and perhaps Spanish Florida.[34]

John Randolph of Roanoke said "Agrarian greed not maritime right urges this war. We have heard but one word - like the whipporwill's one monotonous tone: Canada! Canada! Canada!".[35]"
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 06:37:14 pm by junedragon »
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Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Who won the war of 1812? (Had to be done)
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2014, 06:34:27 pm »
The myth perpetrated by the Canadians (not the government) was that the US planned to annex Canada and force Canadians to become American citizens.

Yes, the US failed to hold Canada long enough to force any of their terms, I was never denying that. Yes, the US lost the war because they failed in this mission. If you'd read earlier in the thread you'd see I completely agree that the US lost the war, as they failed in their war goals. You basically just restated my original argument before it got lost in wikipedia credibility debates and the like. I don't disagree with anything you're saying, except for the first paragraph which is an understandable misrepresentation of my argument, considering I got rather off-topic halfway through explaining it.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 09:58:24 pm by Nipplestockings »