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The Lounge => Historical Discussion => Historical Reenactment => Topic started by: Dordak_the_Lost on April 25, 2013, 09:17:29 pm

Title: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Dordak_the_Lost on April 25, 2013, 09:17:29 pm
*borrowed from: http://www.9thpareserves.org/Tips.htm *

This stuff is probably common sense to a few people on these forums, however, I think it is something that all the fresh fish who use this forum should read. While this article is extremely helpful for new reenactors, there are exceptions to some of the things in this article so it is very important that you do your own research on whoever you are portraying. I find the article makes a lot of generalizations and seems a little opinion based but it still has a few good points.


A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve
Your Personal Impression
By Cal Kinzer

 Everyone thinks it costs big bucks to have a first-rate authentic soldier impression. However, there are a number of things any Reenactor can do to improve his impression that cost little or no money. Here are a dozen examples:

(1) Get a haircut

Both army regulations and contemporary photographs confirm that hair was kept short by soldiers. The idea that the Rebs wore long hair much like their "cavalier" ancestor is untrue, except for a few cases very early in the war. Problem with cleanliness and lice in the field made short hair a must. Don't be misled by the photographs of high-ranking officers. Their hair was probably longer than that of the men under their command. Civilian hair styles were shorter for the younger generation during the 1860s than they were among the older folks, many of whom still had longer hair from the 1840s or before. By the same token, long beards were probably uncommon for the same reasons. Most photos taken in winter quarters show the majority of the men with no beards at all. Most likely, beards, if worn, would be of the shorter variety and would be worn out of necessity during active campaigning when shaving was an impossibility. Most Civil War soldiers seem to have enjoyed shedding their summer growth of facial hair when they settled down to winter quarters.

(2) Lose some weight

I don't agree with the lady who is suing the Park Service because they won't let her participate as a soldier - but she is right about one thing. Reenactors as a group are grossly overweight. (Comes from munching Pringles while reading the latest Civil War book!) your uniform will never look right if you're more than 10-15% overweight. Not all Civil War soldiers were bean poles, but fat ones didn't last very long - especially in the combat arms.

(3) Lose your hat insignia

Kurt Holman pretty much said it all in his article ("Insignia Of The Common Union Solder", CCG, March, 1991). If you want to look like a real soldier, one of the easiest way to achieve it is to remove all insignia (bugle, corps, badge, etc.) form your headgear. Bugles were not even regulation for forage caps. Many Reenactors may also be surprised to learn that bugles and the side eagle plate were not issued with the Hardee hat. They had to be requisitioned separately. Once the war got going, soldiers rarely did so unless they were on special guard detachments behind the lines. Feathers are also wrong. I have yet to see any original photo of a field soldier wearing one. Hat cords were worn sometimes on Hardees, but since they also had to be obtained separately, probably not that much. The only ornamentation that came on the Hardee hat when it was issued was a 1.2" black ribbon which formed a small bow on the left side. The best way to go by far is to have a plain hat or forage cap. Take a long, hard look at your headgear. Nothing will make your impression like a good, correctly-styled hat. Nothing will ruin an otherwise good impression faster than a poor choice of headgear. Even though a hat may be historically correct, this still does not mean it is the right hat for you. Victorian men were very particular about their headgear. Soldiers were no different. Hats during the period had a definite shape and style. There were none of the shapeless (hillbilly) hats you so often see at reenactments. A hat should have a hatband and should not be too "floppy." Wearing a droopy hat is probably the most common mistake made by Reenactors.

(4) Burnish that Enfield

Several years ago some of the boys in my unit got into a discussion about whether period Enfields were burnished. After looking at scores of photographs and examining every original we could find that was documented as being issued, we came to the conclusion they definitely were not. In fact, I have yet to see a period photograph of a blued Enfield. (If anyone has one, I¹d like to see it!) Yes, the Brits did blue their metal, but the type of bluing they used didn't last long. It quickly wore off when the weapon was cleaned. American arms had traditionally been burnished and there is no reason to believe that US and CS officers made any distinction in this area with regard to foreign-made weapons. The argument that you will have to clean the weapon if the bluing is removed won't wash. It's either authentic or it's not - the choice is yours.

(5) Burn those gaiters!

It seems like every once in a while sutlers come up with some off-the-wall item which is specially designed to farb up an otherwise decent impression. Such is certainly the case with the current craze for gaiters. Yes, they had them. Yes, they can be documented. Yes, there are pictures of soldiers wearing them. But they look STUPID! This is precisely the reason why most Civil War soldiers got rid of theirs as quickly as they could. It's another of those questions of what was typical. A typical soldier in the field, after the first few months of the war, wouldn't be caught dead with such a silly and useless item.

(6) Wear full gear

There is a myth in the reenactment community that soldiers habitually dropped their knapsacks and blanket rolls on going into battle. It is the result of a few early war accounts (or accounts of assaults on fortified positions) in which this was done. (If you read farther in these same accounts, you almost always find that those who dropped their knapsacks or blanket rolls almost always later regretted having done so.) Veteran soldiers quickly learned that they would have urgent need of the dry clothing, blankets, and food contained therein once the battle was over - and who was to say that they wouldn't be miles from where they started when the fight was over. The wagons needed to carry knapsacks became fewer as the war progressed and the armies cut back on transport. Knapsacks aren't bad if you pack them right and don¹t overload them. They're much cooler than blanket rolls. There is plenty of documentation on their use in battle for those willing to hunt for it.

(7) Take mind of the season

If you are a Federal, try leaving your frock coat or shell jacket home during summer events. They are simply too hot for summer use. The sack coat was virtually universal during the hot months. It is likely that the shell jackets worn by Rebs during the summer were also unlined. On the other hand, it appears that soldiers did switch over to frocks or shell jackets during the winter, at least in some cases, especially if overcoats were not readily available.

(8 ) Hike up your traps

When you see a Reenactor with his haversack and canteen swinging down near his knees, it's a sure bet he's never marched in his gear any farther than the distance from the camp to the parking lot. Veteran campaigners soon learned that your traps ride a lot better, and don't beat the dickens out of your legs, if you shorten up the straps so that they ride fairly high. Don't make the mistake of simply tying the straps up shorter, however. This is a device invented by Reenactors for which there is no documentation so far as I know. If you shorten up your straps, do so by sewing them the desired length. Nothing looks worse than seeing a soldier with a big knot of canteen strap on his shoulder.

Similarly, the waistbelt and cartridge box should be worn high up - around the true waist - not on the hips (which we modern folks consider to be the waist). Most commercially made haversacks and canteens seem to come equipped with straps made form Michael Jordan. But when you look at the pictures, you will see the original soldiers wearing them up high and out of the way. (9) Use your "biled" shirt for a gun rag. Another atrocity which has been fostered on the unsuspecting Reenactor by so-called "sutlers" who care more about profits than for authenticity is the "biled shirt". This is the ubiquitous which linen shirt which you see most Reenactors wearing. Once again, a quick check of period photographs reveals that most civilian shirts were colored (soldiers, prints, or checks) and that most were either muslin, wool, or a heavier cotton. Federals (especially in the East) seem to have worn the issue woolen shirt (even in the summer). There is one account of a burial detail at Gettysburg. They could tell the dead Federals from the Rebs because the Feds were all wearing the off-white woolen Army-issue shirt (and this was in July!) As a general rule, colored shirts or off-white woolen or muslin shirts are far more authentic than the white linen shirts being worn by most Reenactors today.

(10) Lose the sweat-band

In spite of an absolute lack of documentation, many Reenactors insist on wearing handkerchiefs on their heads as sweat-bands. This makes us look like a bunch of 60s radicals or Kung-Fu experts. Does it follow that since Civil War soldiers had handkerchiefs they would have used them in this way? Not necessarily. Standards of personal looks are different now. As near as I can tell, the practice of wearing headbands was something we borrowed from Asia during the Vietnam War. It would have been foreign to the thinking of 19th Century people. If it can't be documented as being widespread, it doesn't belong.

(11) Un-blouse those socks

To many, this will seem like heresy. After all, everyone knows that Civil War soldiers tucked their trousers in their socks. Right? Well, maybe in some cases and in certain circumstances. One thing is for certain, it is incorrect to do so on formal occasions (such as guard duty, drill, dress parade, etc.) Nor does one see photographs (most of which were taken in camp during winter quarters) of soldiers with their pants tucked in their socks.

In the field, it might have been done by some. However, my personal experience has been that (1) it lets small seeds, dirt clods, and pieces of gravel down in your brogans, (2) it¹s hotter in the summer, and (3) it stretches out and eventually ruins your socks.

A good rule of thumb is that trousers should never be bloused in camp, on the drill field, or on dress occasions. On the march or on the battlefield it is more acceptable, although still probably not the practice by the majority. If you're a little on the heavy side, by all means don't blouse your trousers. It only accents your weight and makes you look like a top!

(12) Acquire the "plain nondescript" look

One strongly suspects that many Reenactors wear frilly, colorful, or even outlandish gear and insignia for all the wrong reasons - to be noticed in the crowd or to call attention to themselves. This is precisely the thing you don't want to do if there are people shooting at you! The most important rule to remember if you are looking to improve your impression is that combat soldiers are infinitely practical men. The veterans made a real fetish of traveling light and they did their best to rid themselves of anything which was superfluous or unnecessary to the everyday necessities of life in the field.

As the war progressed, even their officers came to recognize that practicality made for more efficient armies. Most veteran troops would have laughed at some of the ridiculous things worn by modern Reenactors: feathers, brass insignia, gaiters, etc. The best way to get that "look" for which we are all striving is to try to appear as plain as possible. As General Sherman said, "The longer the war goes on the less our men look like soldiers and the more they look like common day laborers". By the second year of the war, the veterans on both sides had discarded the finery of the early period, adopted very plain and functional dress, and had settled down to the grim business of survival.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 25, 2013, 09:36:31 pm
well good thing i have already done all of that  :D.

but i disagree with the burn those gators. sometimes my unit goes for the early war look.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 25, 2013, 09:52:09 pm
I have read this article from Authentic Campaigner. I supouse this article is meant for a mid-late war impression since thats what most  units do. I read this article about a month ago and changed my uniform accordingly.

I ditched my corps badge and hat brass. I adjusted my cartdidge bod (which was a bitch to do).
I also have decided to rock a knapsack or bedroll at every battle.

 I know there is a article somewhere regarding hat brass on forage caps. Could you link me. Also another question.

 I do a 20th Maine company G Gettysburg impression, would it be better to have my 5th Corps I division badge on or no?
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 25, 2013, 10:11:52 pm
After reading this I think I might put mine one seeing that hooker had only freshly been replaced by the time of gettysburg.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 25, 2013, 10:15:31 pm
what unit are you with?
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 25, 2013, 10:21:36 pm
Thats really cool dude. I have a guy in the FKI who does campaigner 28thMASS out of boston.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 25, 2013, 10:27:14 pm
what unit are you with?

I reenact with the 28th Mass Co B but we will be portraying:

at 150th Chancellorsville:

Prelude-5th Corps 2nd Div
Flank attack-11th Corps 1st Div
Salem Church-6th Corps 1st Div
I am not sure who we are for the Hazel Grove scenario.

at 150th Gburg

First Day-56th Penn
Cemetery Hill-4th Ohio
Second Day-28th Mass
Third Day-14th Conn

awsome all be at Chancellorsivills also
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 25, 2013, 10:36:52 pm
If gaiters were considered stupid, then why would they have put them on for photographs?

They had a use by the way - they kept dust, mud and the like off your pants and out of your shoes.

I could write a napoleonic version of this...
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 25, 2013, 10:44:14 pm
A Napoleonic version would be an interesting read.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 25, 2013, 11:04:02 pm
Well, here are some first ones:

1. Keep that uniform in shape!
A napoleonic soldier had to keep his entire uniform in shape - That's it. You lose a button? Get it on! Your bandolier is dirty? Go start whitening it! You lose, God forbid, a regimental insignia such as a grenade patch? Go repair it! People were very proud on their uniform - And if they weren't, the regulations would tell them to be.
People often say 'well they never all looked precisely the same', that's right, but they did try their best. I've been told of memoirs which tell people would walk the battlefield for hours to replace items they lost.

2. Remember, your house is on your back

Napoleonic soldiers had to carry everything they had on their backpack. While I'm not saying 'Get woodblocks in it to make sure it's the right weight', but here are some suggestions:
- The good ol' cup is of course standard
- A plate and a spoon, always nice additions.
- Shoes! People walked dozens of mile a day! Get an old pair of shoes, or some soles, and hang them on or under your backpack! Davout III's Corps was apparantly famous for doing this. I personally love the view.

3. There's no such thing as illogical.
Too often I hear re-enactors say: Yeah, well, it's far more logical they did this and wore that. So? It was the army - There wasn't logic. French troops did not have black leather. Light infantry did not only skirmish and run around. You get the picture.

I'm sure there are others, but these are the first ones I could think of.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: DeoVindice61 on April 25, 2013, 11:05:57 pm
If gaiters were considered stupid, then why would they have put them on for photographs?

They had a use by the way - they kept dust, mud and the like off your pants and out of your shoes.

I could write a napoleonic version of this...
 

in photographs? Those are early war my good sir. Early war. Gaiters didn't last so long in the Civil War unless you are portraying Zouaves fashioned units but most common infantry unit got rid of the gaiters not long enough when the war started.

Gaiters if appropiate, looks nice when a whole battalion wears them. But when a lone soldier does....that's just plain dumb.

Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 25, 2013, 11:07:04 pm
If gaiters were considered stupid, then why would they have put them on for photographs?

They had a use by the way - they kept dust, mud and the like off your pants and out of your shoes.

I could write a napoleonic version of this...
 

in photographs? Those are early war my good sir. Early war. Gaiters didn't last so long in the Civil War unless you are portraying Zouaves fashioned units but most common infantry unit got rid of the gaiters not long enough when the war started.

Gaiters if appropiate, looks nice when a whole battalion wears them. But when a lone soldier does....that's just plain dumb.

Like I said I my previous post, people often start thinking logical when addressing these matters. Please don't. You might as well be right, but only by evidence, not by thinking logical.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: König on April 26, 2013, 12:39:40 am
"The men had issued to them, shelter tents and white leggings, for the first time. The next morning after the issue, General Gibbons found the legs of his horse ornamented with white leggings. This was a silent protest against these leggings."


"Echos of the Civil War as I Hear Them,", by Michael Henry Fitch, page 34-35
Or the guys just liked the gaiters so much that they thought his horse would like some too.  ::)

But in all seriousness, I love my leggings/gaiters. Granted, I am a WWII reenactor, but we still use leggings, and hey, leggings are leggings. Duuring made some good points.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: DeoVindice61 on April 26, 2013, 12:48:39 am
"The men had issued to them, shelter tents and white leggings, for the first time. The next morning after the issue, General Gibbons found the legs of his horse ornamented with white leggings. This was a silent protest against these leggings."


"Echos of the Civil War as I Hear Them,", by Michael Henry Fitch, page 34-35
Or the guys just liked the gators so much that they thought his horse would like some too.  ::)

But in all seriousness, I love my leggings/gators. Granted, I am a WWII reenactor, but we still use leggings, and hey, leggings are leggings. Duuring made some good points.


Yeah the WW2 one looks good. and kinda slim compared to what i've seen at some reenactments. (Them farby Rebs skirmishers  >:( ) 

But there is evidence that there are good amount of regiments dismissing gaiters. In my opinion, they look straight outta ridiculous. But I'm glad to find evidence so I wont have to wear those dreaded things.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: König on April 26, 2013, 12:58:23 am
"The men had issued to them, shelter tents and white leggings, for the first time. The next morning after the issue, General Gibbons found the legs of his horse ornamented with white leggings. This was a silent protest against these leggings."


"Echos of the Civil War as I Hear Them,", by Michael Henry Fitch, page 34-35
Or the guys just liked the gators so much that they thought his horse would like some too.  ::)

But in all seriousness, I love my leggings/gators. Granted, I am a WWII reenactor, but we still use leggings, and hey, leggings are leggings. Duuring made some good points.


Yeah the WW2 one looks good. and kinda slim compared to what i've seen at some reenactments. (Them farby Rebs skirmishers  >:( ) 

But there is evidence that there are good amount of regiments dismissing gaiters. In my opinion, they look straight outta ridiculous. But I'm glad to find evidence so I wont have to wear those dreaded things.
#gaiterhater
#gaiters4life
:P

But yeah, do what seems to be regularly done.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 09:11:25 am
Let me play devils attorney here.

They say the generals horse's leg were ormanted with them. Now, how many gaiters would fit on four horselegs? A few dozen? 60? 100? 200?

Certainly not the entire batallion - this was done by a minorty of the regiment, probably all in 1 company (One guy took the lead, others followed).

Gaiters were part of high fashion in those days, so saying it looks ridicious has hardly got anything to do with. And eventually men regretted trowing away the gaiters, because why else would they fit their pants in their socks?

Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Docm30 on April 26, 2013, 09:41:54 am
Could they really get away with destroying their gaiters in those armies? in the 19th century British army the deliberate destruction of issued items was punishable by death. Most got off with a flogging, though.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 26, 2013, 03:48:02 pm
Could they really get away with destroying their gaiters in those armies? in the 19th century British army the deliberate destruction of issued items was punishable by death. Most got off with a flogging, though.
well i dont really know about punishment,  but the civil war soilder would have thrown away grear that sould make them less stremline on marches.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 26, 2013, 04:14:41 pm
Could they really get away with destroying their gaiters in those armies? in the 19th century British army the deliberate destruction of issued items was punishable by death. Most got off with a flogging, though.

On September 6th, 1862, the 16th Maine left their great coats, tents, knapsacks, bedrolls and other supplies when they left DC because they thought the war would be short. They were finally resupplied on Nov 27th, 1862.

I think the army wasn't as strict on their regulations as other countries.

Right, im sure the army was pissed at  haveng to resuppy them but only to some extent And that is how the U.S.  army works
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 26, 2013, 04:22:12 pm
i think gators sould only be used for early war impresstions but that they were "lost" very quickly and there for dont use them! no matter how pretty they look.

and besides i like mud on my boots and pants  ;D
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 04:29:59 pm
Could they really get away with destroying their gaiters in those armies? in the 19th century British army the deliberate destruction of issued items was punishable by death. Most got off with a flogging, though.

Such is an army of volunteers.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 05:04:18 pm
Could they really get away with destroying their gaiters in those armies? in the 19th century British army the deliberate destruction of issued items was punishable by death. Most got off with a flogging, though.

Such is an army of volunteers.

The British army consisted fully out of volunteers.

Of course some men didn't have much choice, but you know what I mean.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 26, 2013, 05:34:36 pm
Could they really get away with destroying their gaiters in those armies? in the 19th century British army the deliberate destruction of issued items was punishable by death. Most got off with a flogging, though.

Such is an army of volunteers.

The British army consisted fully out of volunteers.

Of course some men didn't have much choice, but you know what I mean.

"Volunteers"
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 05:36:58 pm
They had, for example, the choice between deportation or enlistment, or the noose or enlistment.

Those men were a far minority, though, and by the greatest part of the people signed up just to make a living. You're not telling me no ACW soldiers enlisted to run away from problems at home.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 26, 2013, 05:40:41 pm
and then you got the "press gangs"

"we will hit you until you join the navy"
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 05:42:57 pm
Spoiler
Could they really get away with destroying their gaiters in those armies? in the 19th century British army the deliberate destruction of issued items was punishable by death. Most got off with a flogging, though.

Such is an army of volunteers.

The British army consisted fully out of volunteers.

Of course some men didn't have much choice, but you know what I mean.

When he says army of volunteers, he is referring to the United States Volunteers (which was called The Volunteer  Army of the United States at the time) which were separate from the Regular Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Volunteers
[close]

I know. My point is that just because an army is made out of volunteers is no reason they were less disciplined or less punished. Even though he was probably only joking; I just like making points!

and then you got the "press gangs"

"we will hitt you ntil you going the navy"

That's the navy, and I don't think they ever really became violent until AFTER you had signed up.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 26, 2013, 05:44:33 pm
Spoiler
Could they really get away with destroying their gaiters in those armies? in the 19th century British army the deliberate destruction of issued items was punishable by death. Most got off with a flogging, though.

Such is an army of volunteers.

The British army consisted fully out of volunteers.

Of course some men didn't have much choice, but you know what I mean.

When he says army of volunteers, he is referring to the United States Volunteers (which was called The Volunteer  Army of the United States at the time) which were separate from the Regular Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Volunteers
[close]

I know. My point is that just because an army is made out of volunteers is no reason they were less disciplined or less punished. Even though he was probably only joking; I just like making points!

and then you got the "press gangs"

"we will hit you until you join the navy"

That's the navy, and I don't think they ever really became violent until AFTER you had signed up.

really, well that the american version of it, but im sure its wrong
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 06:23:41 pm
Ah, you silly Americans. Thinking people were violent in the early 19th century! Ha!
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 26, 2013, 06:34:58 pm
Ah, you silly Americans. Thinking people were violent in the early 19th century! Ha!

What peoplewere violent!!!  I thought everyone was frolicking in field drinking French wine and Switz chocolate in the 19th century!!! 
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 06:36:08 pm
I don't think your understanding what I meant duuring. Although it wouldn't be the best description of it but think the US volunteers as a better trained militia. Where as ditching equipment and such would be frowned upon and punished in the regular army (before the war) the volunteers often commanded by volunteer commanders cared less about that and did what what the men preferred.

 If somebody didn't like their equipment they would throw it away. Only arms and leathers were required to be in good order.

 To be frank I don't think your understanding that the Volunteer armies were more nonchalant than their European counterparts.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 26, 2013, 06:41:10 pm
And then the reb army was like all you need are a Rifle, leathers, and a cover (hat) shoes not needed but helpful
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 06:41:49 pm
I understand, and you make a good explanation in this post; I'm just saying that you can't say 'They were volunteers' as an explanation of why they kept their equipment in a lousy state. Or threw it away. Even saying they were a militia doesn't really explain that fact - You had so-called Schutterijen, local militia companies, in the Netherlands who were just as uniformed as the regulars or National Militia. The National militia, in fact, was an almost fully conscripted corps - The name militia wasn't entirely appropriate, maybe.

Didn't the rebels once throw away all their greatcoats in summer only to freeze almost to death in the winter, making Lee's planned surprise assault impossible?
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 06:45:18 pm
I meant Volunteers as that they were in volunteer regiments,brigades,divisions,corps. I wouldnt say a modern American or British Infantryman is unsiciplined and throws his gear away because he is a volunteer. Its the name of the orginization.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 06:46:54 pm
Silly volunteers making other volunteers look stupid.

It's quite interesting how many 'historians' write down the Nationale Militie was of a secondary standard and performed badly, just because they had Militie in their name. They weren't, and didn't. They were organized, trained, armed and dressed at the same level of the regulars - the only difference is that they were largely conscripts.

Fun fact : - There were 35 Battalions of Infantry in the Dutch army (not counting the Nassau units), and 51 of Militia.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Olafson on April 26, 2013, 06:59:19 pm
I guess you can not really compare an American Army of that time with an European Army of that time. I still can not believe that soldiers just threw away their equipment without getting punished. It just sounds weird to me. But everything about the American Civil War is so wierd. Nothing seems regulated and people just do what they want. Atleast thats my overall impression of it. They do not seem to care for the look either, while in Europe regiments did care how they looked and performed. Its just confusing.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 26, 2013, 07:06:32 pm
I guess you can not really compare an American Army of that time with an European Army of that time. I still can not believe that soldiers just threw away their equipment without getting punished. It just sounds weird to me. But everything about the American Civil War is so wierd. Nothing seems regulated and people just do what they want. Atleast thats my overall impression of it. They do not seem to care for the look either, while in Europe regiments did care how they looked and performed. Its just confusing.

Well ACW was a long Gritty war with both side fighting to the last man over that there way of life was going to end if the other side won. There were no dress parades,  this was a slug out fight.  Now I read many book about ACW and troop were marching 10 -20 miles a day, now to make it easier they would try to make there gear as streamline as possible. Keep the Bare minimum gear. Say putting gear in blacket rolls ect. Also America realized that pretty  uniforms were useless in combat and keep it simple.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 26, 2013, 07:07:58 pm
Also no troop really put blanket rolls on the top of there knapsack is was to heavy that way and less streamline.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 07:10:48 pm
Well they did care somewhat how they looked, Western troops ditching their forage caps for slouch hats was a fashion statement. same with the Iron Brigades hardees etc. An example from a book I read said that one reason for this was America had no military culture or tradition. There were 17,000 men in the regular army and almost all of them were in remote outposts in the west. Most people cared more about the next harvest then joining the army.

 Europeans at the time had centuries of military tradition and fashion. You can see this in the elaborate uniforms of Hussars and the extremely strict discipline. in the beginning of the war a man was more likely to say how do yes do sir? than than address him in a proper military manner.

US - No millitary tradition
EU - Centuries of Millitary tradition
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 09:42:29 pm
I would think they would be.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 09:51:01 pm
I would think they would be.

Depends on unit and commander. As items were mass-dumped, it seems the universal rule was no.

Munk, a unit trowing everything away is in no way more mobile. The French were packed with gear, 30 kilo is no overestmation, yet they marched the fastest of all armies. The only reason Americans threw away gear was laziness.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 09:59:33 pm
When a company was ordered to fall in they fall in. If they were ordered to conduct a dress parade they did.

Also I think if given the chance a man would like to march lighter Duuring. Im sure even a robust French Grenadier in 1805 would have liked to have had the chance to ditch anything that wasent needed so he may the lighter on the march. Not to go faster but to be more confortable. I wouldnt classify a man who marches 20 miles a day for weeks on end "lazy"

 However I think the important matter is that its difficult to compare the Volunteer armies of the civil war to the armies of the Napoleonic Wars. The mindsets were to different.

Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 10:13:37 pm
Of course they would have liked to ditch things. But name one thing on a full-packed French soldier he really didn't need - I wish you good luck.

Why did they march 20 miles a day? Because the army told him too. If they would have been given liberty on that as well, I don't they (or anyone!) would still march it every day.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 10:28:22 pm
Quote
That big bear skin hat...

Bearskins were ordered to be left in the depot during the campaign and were to be abandoned (for the line grenadiers) in 1812 - Yet they were carried on en masse. Why? Pride!

I believe you on your word the order exists, but, define 'pack lightly'.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 10:29:05 pm
Quote
In an order issued by the AoP, Board of Officers, for the Chancellorsville campaign, it states: “Two mules per Regiment, to carry camp kettles, rice, beans, & c. are all that are allowed “

Also another interesting thing I read

Quote
Evidence  suggest that many soldiers “lost” their bayonets, on the campaign, which tends to support the general adage that bayonet combat was not as frequent as the living history community would believe, or present. A visiting British officer commented upon a review of Arkansas troops in 1863: “ Most of them were armed with Enfield rifles captured from the enemy. Many, however had thrown away their bayonets…they asserted they have never met Yankees who would wait for that weapon.” [iii]


Some early war units wore Bear skins caps however ditched them event on parade for two main reasons.
A. They wearent confortable to wear while marching.
B. They made you a target compared the normal looking guy next to you.

 Some men even took the plates of their slings for their cartridge boc's so they wouldnt be wearing anything shiny.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 10:30:20 pm
Every French battalion had three wagons to carry things - Yet they still marched quickly.

Quote
Some early war units wore Bear skins caps however ditched them event on parade for two main reasons.
A. They wearent confortable to wear while marching.
B. They made you a target compared the normal looking guy next to you.

Now, this is something typically different for our two periods. By the way, bearskins were almost never worn during the march.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 10:34:25 pm
A Civil War regiment of roughly 300 (average) men had 1

I dont mean to be rude but the way your writing your posts makes you seem like your trying to prove something.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 10:38:46 pm
Yes thats what I meant Dordak.  :P

Quote
. A reduction in men also meant a reduction in wagons devoted to the men. The wagons devoted exclusively  to the men in a regiment of five hundred  would be reduced from four wagons to two. A veteran regiment of two hundred fifty would be reduced to one wagon. That one wagon would be used for carrying food, and cooking utensils, medical supplies, and baggage for the regimental staff. This means that the Companies were left to fend for themselves, and carrying their gear
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 10:54:11 pm
Thats a point I posted.

 The Armies of the Napoleonic Era were very different of the Armies of the Civil War.

Shame hooked got wrecked at Chancellorsville for it seems he did allot of good for the army on the administration side.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 11:03:58 pm
If we are discussing rations:

Dutch soldiers were issued two loafs of bread, 2 packs of hardtacks (yes, the very same) and a pound of flour. This served as breakfast - (I think) dinner had to be bought yourself on campaign. I'm not 100% certain on what was given and what was to be (mandatory) purchased. Anyway, the soldier in question had to eat the two loafs in the first four days, then the hardtacks, and then the flour, to make pancakes or poultice. The soldier had to be able to eat about two weeks with this.

Sadly, as the flour was heaviest, they usually ate that first and after a few days the bread would have to be thrown away (it started to rot) - and when the hardtacks were eaten as well, they had to either purchase new food or be hungry.

They usually ate potatoes or soup for dinner, and as far as I know that was purchased personally.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: DeoVindice61 on April 26, 2013, 11:08:12 pm
They were lazy? huh?

Civil War Veterans are not lazy Duuring..... Have some respect. They had some gut to face volley in the face of enemies yet at same time, maintaining their line forward. Altough i'm not trying to be rude of make a big deal out of it but I just had to say that was straight out unnecessary to comment like that.

How would you like it if I went ahead saying the Dutch were straight out coward at Waterloo?  Altough I believe they weren't coward and they fought hard just as anyone. But Imagine a fellah coming from another period. Comparing two different era and insulting the Dutch at Waterloo.

That would be plain rude and ignorant. See what I mean Eh?
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 11:09:40 pm
They were lazy? huh?

Civil War Veterans are not lazy Duuring..... Have some respect. They had some gut to face volley in the face of enemies yet at same time, maintaining their line forward. Altough i'm not trying to be rude of make a big deal out of it but I just had to say that was straight out unnecessary to comment like that.

How would you like it if I went ahead saying the Dutch were straight out coward at Waterloo?  Altough I believe they weren't coward and they fought hard just as anyone. But Imagine a fellah coming from another period. Comparing two different era and insulting the Dutch at Waterloo.

That would be plain rude and ignorant. See what I mean Eh?

Right, I should have used the word 'self preservation' instead of laziness. Better?
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Millander on April 26, 2013, 11:35:50 pm
If we are discussing rations:

but we arent

 Really duuring I mean no offence but the way your writing your posts really sounds like your trying to prove something.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 26, 2013, 11:50:08 pm
Well, more or less I am. I'm not, in any way, trying to prove Napoleonic soldiers were better people then the Americans in the ACW. They might be more disciplined soldiers, because they didn't drop their gear, but this has other explanation, such as punishment or having to pay for a replacement.
But as you can see by my point of the flour, when given liberty, Napoleonic soldiers did these kind of things too. Damn regulations and damn the heavy stuff.

I might be sounded a little confronting, that's just Dutchness.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: DeoVindice61 on April 27, 2013, 12:01:06 am
Well, more or less I am. I'm not, in any way, trying to prove Napoleonic soldiers were better people then the Americans in the ACW. They might be more disciplined soldiers, because they didn't drop their gear, but this has other explanation, such as punishment or having to pay for a replacement.
But as you can see by my point of the flour, when given liberty, Napoleonic soldiers did these kind of things too. Damn regulations and damn the heavy stuff.

I might be sounded a little confronting, that's just Dutchness.



Pretty sure the American army was like that during the period, just not ACW. Where people actually gained some common sense.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 27, 2013, 12:03:37 am
Once again, what might sound as common sense to us nowadays doesn't necessarily had to be common sense in those days.

It was common sense in those days to stand still while you are being shot at.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Docm30 on April 27, 2013, 01:53:44 am
It was common sense in those days to stand still while you are being shot at.

The hell it was. Common sense would have told them to run for the hills. It was desire to win the battle and fear of punishment that got men to stand still under fire. Couldn't have been common sense as that's not a very sensible thing to do.

They were lazy? huh?

Civil War Veterans are not lazy Duuring..... Have some respect. They had some gut to face volley in the face of enemies yet at same time, maintaining their line forward. Altough i'm not trying to be rude of make a big deal out of it but I just had to say that was straight out unnecessary to comment like that...

He's not wrong, though, is he? perhaps he could have said it more eloquently, but soldiers fighting in the US Civil War (and all wars) were above all else humans. Humans are lazy; they hate to carry heavy loads and they hate to walk long distances, and will always try their best to weasel out of doing it or try to make it easier to do. That's why kit was abandoned or destroyed.

Napoleonic soldiers carried an average load of 25-30 kilograms, so you can be sure they dispensed with as much of their gear as they could as soon as they could. By the end of the retreat to Corunna, for example, the British soldiers had almost none of their issued equipment left, save for their weapons and parts of their uniforms. Knapsacks and their unneeded contents were widely gotten rid of. I'm sure soldiers in the US Civil War did the same, but I just found it a bit hard to believe that they'd get rid of their kit at the beginning of a campaign under the watch of their superiors.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: König on April 27, 2013, 03:46:19 am
Just a thought, but if he's desperate enough to keep his pants clean/keep stuff out of his pants, or whatever, to stuff the ends in his socks, wouldn't it make sense to guess that he wished he hadn't thrown away his gaiters?
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Docm30 on April 27, 2013, 04:17:36 am
It's not his pants he's trying to keep clean. It's his wooden leg, which he won in the war in nineteen forty four.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: König on April 27, 2013, 04:25:11 am
It's not his pants he's trying to keep clean. It's his wooden leg, which he won in the war in nineteen forty four.
Oh, of course, that makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: munky-wunky on April 27, 2013, 04:38:56 am
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gutenberg.org%2Ffiles%2F31771%2F31771-h%2Fimages%2Ffrontispiece.jpg&hash=1d9783dc5a8ac7bc0c154cf0ed0083d6a375504f)

that is what exactly i was saying STEAMLINE
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: DeoVindice61 on April 27, 2013, 05:52:32 am
Spoiler
It was common sense in those days to stand still while you are being shot at.

The hell it was. Common sense would have told them to run for the hills. It was desire to win the battle and fear of punishment that got men to stand still under fire. Couldn't have been common sense as that's not a very sensible thing to do.

They were lazy? huh?

Civil War Veterans are not lazy Duuring..... Have some respect. They had some gut to face volley in the face of enemies yet at same time, maintaining their line forward. Altough i'm not trying to be rude of make a big deal out of it but I just had to say that was straight out unnecessary to comment like that...

He's not wrong, though, is he? perhaps he could have said it more eloquently, but soldiers fighting in the US Civil War (and all wars) were above all else humans. Humans are lazy; they hate to carry heavy loads and they hate to walk long distances, and will always try their best to weasel out of doing it or try to make it easier to do. That's why kit was abandoned or destroyed.

Napoleonic soldiers carried an average load of 25-30 kilograms, so you can be sure they dispensed with as much of their gear as they could as soon as they could. By the end of the retreat to Corunna, for example, the British soldiers had almost none of their issued equipment left, save for their weapons and parts of their uniforms. Knapsacks and their unneeded contents were widely gotten rid of. I'm sure soldiers in the US Civil War did the same, but I just found it a bit hard to believe that they'd get rid of their kit at the beginning of a campaign under the watch of their superiors.
[close]


Oh yes by all mean, I agree with you. But I'm just replying to Duuring because in his previous post. He appear to make ACW bunch of lazy bones and Napoleonic as opposite of his claim toward to ACW.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Landrik on April 27, 2013, 07:43:01 am
by John Stillwagon

It's a small world afterall. John Stillwagon is the platoon sergeant for the Red Guard. The Soviet unit who I keep on talking about.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Duuring on April 27, 2013, 09:41:55 am
Spoiler
It was common sense in those days to stand still while you are being shot at.

The hell it was. Common sense would have told them to run for the hills. It was desire to win the battle and fear of punishment that got men to stand still under fire. Couldn't have been common sense as that's not a very sensible thing to do.

They were lazy? huh?

Civil War Veterans are not lazy Duuring..... Have some respect. They had some gut to face volley in the face of enemies yet at same time, maintaining their line forward. Altough i'm not trying to be rude of make a big deal out of it but I just had to say that was straight out unnecessary to comment like that...

He's not wrong, though, is he? perhaps he could have said it more eloquently, but soldiers fighting in the US Civil War (and all wars) were above all else humans. Humans are lazy; they hate to carry heavy loads and they hate to walk long distances, and will always try their best to weasel out of doing it or try to make it easier to do. That's why kit was abandoned or destroyed.

Napoleonic soldiers carried an average load of 25-30 kilograms, so you can be sure they dispensed with as much of their gear as they could as soon as they could. By the end of the retreat to Corunna, for example, the British soldiers had almost none of their issued equipment left, save for their weapons and parts of their uniforms. Knapsacks and their unneeded contents were widely gotten rid of. I'm sure soldiers in the US Civil War did the same, but I just found it a bit hard to believe that they'd get rid of their kit at the beginning of a campaign under the watch of their superiors.
[close]


Oh yes by all mean, I agree with you. But I'm just replying to Duuring because in his previous post. He appear to make ACW bunch of lazy bones and Napoleonic as opposite of his claim toward to ACW.

I love it when people aren't offended by what I say but by HOW I say it.

Anyway, not my intention etc etc, as said before. My point was that the reason they trew away items wasn't because of some tactical reason or anything. It was self-preservation. I'm not saying ACW were more lazy. I even gave an example to show Napoleonic guys did it too, yet you all seem to ignore that.

Docm, I meant that fighting in a straight line, shooting at your opponent, was a common and accepted way of fighting.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Docm30 on April 27, 2013, 09:53:30 am
That developed not so much from common sense, but from centuries of fighting. That's really the only way one can find the most effective way to fight.

Anyway, I think Napoleonic soldiers were probably a lot more inclined to hold on to their equipment because, unlike Americans in the US Civil War, they often operated in foreign and hostile areas, where one wouldn't know the terrain and it'd be a lot harder to survive and get aid from the locals than it would be when fighting a war in one's own country. That makes everything you own a lot more precious.

I realise that southerners didn't exactly welcome Union soldiers (or northerners rebels), but I don't think their hostility was usually comparable to the kind you'd experience in a war between sovereign nations.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: DeoVindice61 on April 27, 2013, 03:33:45 pm
That developed not so much from common sense, but from centuries of fighting. That's really the only way one can find the most effective way to fight.

Anyway, I think Napoleonic soldiers were probably a lot more inclined to hold on to their equipment because, unlike Americans in the US Civil War, they often operated in foreign and hostile areas, where one wouldn't know the terrain and it'd be a lot harder to survive and get aid from the locals than it would be when fighting a war in one's own country. That makes everything you own a lot more precious.

I realise that southerners didn't exactly welcome Union soldiers (or northerners rebels), but I don't think their hostility was usually comparable to the kind you'd experience in a war between sovereign nations.
 


Oh trust me, there are quite many amount of stories of crazy southners acting out on union troops during reconstruction.
Title: Re: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)
Post by: Olafson on April 27, 2013, 07:11:33 pm
Still, there are no things such as different languages etc..
Besides, just a few months before the war, the USA still were one nation. Sure, it was split into two groups, but these groups did not fight each other or were in war. You can not compare it to a war between two nations that have been in war for centuries. Mistrust and hatred were much more common than in the Civil War.