Author Topic: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8  (Read 51223 times)

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Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #90 on: January 06, 2019, 07:48:18 pm »
My experience of competitive play within NW was an overly unrealistic and restrictive one. If you are hoping to encourage those rules, and to only cater for the current NW Community in competitive play then you'll do your game a disservice.

What did you not like about competitive play in NW? What did you find restrictive? How would you like to see competitive play in BCoF?


It was along time ago so correct me if Im wrong. Where do I begin.... Lets start at the top, the inability to target Officers. I mean really, its the first natural choice of target surely! Cut off the head and the body fails.

Some rules like Line only, no Skirmishers, Light, Flag bearers or Musicians. Lets get rid of Trees, Hills and cover completely and fight in a perfectly flat Arena shall we!!!!!

Whats with the strict rule on Skirmish spacing (if even allowed in game). Skirmishers surely should take advantage of terrain and cover, and not be concerned by the 3-4 spaces between them and their fellow skirmisher.

Lets move on to gaps in the line and firing rule, it happened as the chaos of battle and as soldiers drop.... why penalise a regiment in the heat of battle for some gaps in the line?

Movement in Line only!?!?!?! Why????

I mean you build a game, and then start saying we dont want to build in restrictions. No need, the player based restrictions are worse and hamstring the game completely! They put me off taking NW or HF seriously. If you are building a game for the old NW crowd and their competitions then be honest and tell us, otherwise give us some game built options to help promote the game we wish to play (Realism/Hardcore/Arcade).


How would you like to see competitive play in BCoF?


For a start lose the competition reference, surely every game is a competition between sides. A winner, loser or draw! By pushing the Competition label, you are cheapening the experience. Making a two tier game, the one plebs play and then the self called 'Pros!' Cant they play together with game applied rules and experience the game together?

The key to any type of musketry game is maintaining the Lines, Regiments and Cohesion. Penalise Lone wolves or kill count players and push TEAM play, whether that be bonuses to players who plays as a unit with extra tickets, points or quicker spawns for collective play. Make going alone cost the side dearly, make not being a teamplayer a huge disadvantage to the team and to the player as well. Killed out of Line - extra time to spawn, extra points lost, unless of course you are a Skirmishers (unique rules apply).

Make Team objectives the priority over Kill reports or personal achievements.... I'd ban personal kill counts, over Regiment/Company kill counts any day!

Make moving in formation quicker. We've all run alone and felt it. Run with a group and time flies. No lagging behind when 30 plus guys shout 'get your arse moving'.

There are so many things the game can do better than player 'artificial' rules, just needs the will and the way.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #91 on: January 06, 2019, 07:51:21 pm »
I was not replying to you, just putting emphasis on the fact it's retarded and anyone with a gun should be able to tell you that. You might not defend it, but other WoR developers do, and so do so many WoR players. Mind you, you don't even admit it's retarded and wrong, just 'that you will look into it'. Tell me, TrustyJam, do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?

Why are you so aggressive in the manner which you conduct yourself?

If you wish for me to provide you with any information please ask me properly without insulting myself and my dev team.

- Trusty

Where am I being aggressive? Where am I being insulting? I ask you quite straightforward and directly whether you think this reloading animation makes practical sense and if it's historical accurate. 

Now, if you don't want to answer that question, that's fine. Can't force you. But don't throw the 'Insults!'-cards because you lack a proper answer. It's too easy to pretend you misinterpret the directness in which I ask these questions, because I'm sure you understand just fine. We're both adults. Nowhere did I insult you or your dev team, and anyone can see that. So let me ask again:

Do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 07:54:53 pm by Duuring »

Offline TrustyJam

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #92 on: January 06, 2019, 07:58:25 pm »
I was not replying to you, just putting emphasis on the fact it's retarded and anyone with a gun should be able to tell you that. You might not defend it, but other WoR developers do, and so do so many WoR players. Mind you, you don't even admit it's retarded and wrong, just 'that you will look into it'. Tell me, TrustyJam, do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?

Why are you so aggressive in the manner which you conduct yourself?

If you wish for me to provide you with any information please ask me properly without insulting myself and my dev team.

- Trusty

Where am I being aggressive? Where am I being insulting? I ask you quite straightforward and directly whether you think this reloading animation makes practical sense and if it's historical accurate. 

Now, if you don't want to answer that question, that's fine. Can't force you. But don't throw the 'Insults!'-cards because you lack a proper answer. It's too easy to pretend you misinterpret the directness in which I ask these questions. Nowhere did I insult you or your dev team, and anyone can see that. So let me ask again:

Do you honestly think this reloading animation makes sense, let alone has some historical accuracy?

Thank you for not calling us nor our project retarded in every other sentence.

The load animation was done after video material recorded by our historical advisor.

As you and several others have pointed out it has some errors which will be corrected at some point - but it is not a priority to us animation-wise currently.

I do not lack a proper answer - I give you the same answer I gave in the thread that was linked to.

There's no great cover-up movement or the like which you seem to believe you've uncovered.

- Trusty

Offline Duuring

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #93 on: January 06, 2019, 08:07:12 pm »
Quote
Thank you for not calling us nor our project retarded in every other sentence.

I didn't. I never did. I called the animation retarded. Don't put words in my mouth and then claim I've insulted you.

Quote
I do not lack a proper answer - I give you the same answer I gave in the thread that was linked to.

And I asked whether you think the animation itself is accurate or not. Which you did not answer in the WoR thread nor on this one until just now. Thank you for answering my question.

Quote
There's no great cover-up movement or the like which you seem to believe you've uncovered

I don't believe I uncovered anything, and I don't see the added value of this remark. The criticism on the animation is easily backed up with several arguments and wildly shared. Asking whether you think it is correct seems a valid question and you spend most of your post either claiming I insulted you (Which I did not, and again, anyone can read back and see that my criticism is entirely directed towards the animation) or demeaning my criticism with remarks like this.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 08:09:00 pm by Duuring »

Offline TrustyJam

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #94 on: January 06, 2019, 08:20:16 pm »
Quote
Thank you for not calling us nor our project retarded in every other sentence.

I didn't. I never did. I called the animation retarded. Don't put words in my mouth and then claim I've insulted you.

Quote
I do not lack a proper answer - I give you the same answer I gave in the thread that was linked to.

And I asked whether you think the animation itself is accurate or not. Which you did not answer in the WoR thread nor on this one until just now. Thank you for answering my question.

Quote
There's no great cover-up movement or the like which you seem to believe you've uncovered

I don't believe I uncovered anything, and I don't see the added value of this remark. The criticism on the animation is easily backed up with several arguments and wildly shared. Asking whether you think it is correct seems a valid question and you spend most of your post either claiming I insulted you (Which I did not, and again, anyone can read back and see that my criticism is entirely directed towards the animation) or demeaning my criticism with remarks like this.

I stated close to two years ago that I'd pass it onwards to our historical advisor (in the thread that was linked to).

I would not have done so had I believed it was flawless.

I won't be taking up more space here when this thread and forum is dedicated to another game.

- Trusty

Offline JoseyWales

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #95 on: January 06, 2019, 08:22:12 pm »
WoR is not a civil war simulator, it's a re-enactor simulator.
Well said m8!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 08:27:51 pm by JoseyWales »

Offline Duke Of LongTree

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #96 on: January 06, 2019, 08:36:46 pm »
WoR is not a civil war simulator, it's a re-enactor simulator.
Well said m8!

hes not wrong ...

Offline TrustyJam

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #97 on: January 06, 2019, 08:46:51 pm »
WoR is not a civil war simulator, it's a re-enactor simulator.
Well said m8!

hes not wrong ...

We're thrilled if we've come as close as reenacting. :)

- Trusty

Offline Duuring

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #98 on: January 06, 2019, 08:57:27 pm »
If historical accuracy is your goal, then you really shouldn't.

Offline TrustyJam

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #99 on: January 06, 2019, 09:00:43 pm »
If historical accuracy is your goal, then you really shouldn't.

Historical authenticity/Immersion is our goal - we're quite pleased to be compared to a digital form of reenacting.

- Trusty

Offline Xethos

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #100 on: January 06, 2019, 09:04:07 pm »
It was along time ago so correct me if Im wrong. Where do I begin.... Lets start at the top, the inability to target Officers. I mean really, its the first natural choice of target surely! Cut off the head and the body fails.

Some rules like Line only, no Skirmishers, Light, Flag bearers or Musicians. Lets get rid of Trees, Hills and cover completely and fight in a perfectly flat Arena shall we!!!!!

Whats with the strict rule on Skirmish spacing (if even allowed in game). Skirmishers surely should take advantage of terrain and cover, and not be concerned by the 3-4 spaces between them and their fellow skirmisher.

Lets move on to gaps in the line and firing rule, it happened as the chaos of battle and as soldiers drop.... why penalise a regiment in the heat of battle for some gaps in the line?

Movement in Line only!?!?!?! Why????

All of these things vary from event to event. I can't speak to EU event, but no combined arms event in NA bans officer aiming. A lot of events had rules (or less strict enforcement) allowing skirms to use cover as they saw fit.

In regard to competitive play itself, all of the rules that pop up in league rules are intended to isolate skill at the game (whether they're successful is a different question). There were attempts to do more realistic competitive battles if memory serves, but they all died out from a lack of sustained interest. People who want to pretend they're actually a soldier in 1812 and people who sweat just haven't mixed well,

Quote
I mean you build a game, and then start saying we dont want to build in restrictions. No need, the player based restrictions are worse and hamstring the game completely! They put me off taking NW or HF seriously. If you are building a game for the old NW crowd and their competitions then be honest and tell us, otherwise give us some game built options to help promote the game we wish to play (Realism/Hardcore/Arcade).

If nobody else wanted to play the way you want to play, that's not the game's fault. That's the fault of everybody who didn't make the event or host the server with the rules you want (or if they did, the fault of everybody who didn't play on those servers). It's less the case today, but for three or four years after NW released, you could go to a dozen different servers at any given time and get a different experience, plus the myriad of different linebattles or competitive play that took several different approaches.

My understanding at this point is that BCoF's server settings will be extensive enough to allow for different kinds of game play. You could probably prevail on somebody who runs a server to get the kind of setup you want with enough convincing (or get your own server if you have the means). If that's what people want to play, you won't have any problems, and if they don't, well, I don't think it'd be a weakness of the game to give them the choice to play a different way on a different server.

Quote
For a start lose the competition reference, surely every game is a competition between sides. A winner, loser or draw! By pushing the Competition label, you are cheapening the experience. Making a two tier game, the one plebs play and then the self called 'Pros!' Cant they play together with game applied rules and experience the game together?

Competitive NW was pretty much always player-driven. For a long time, there were less serious players in competitive, but they slowly either quit playing or quit doing competitive over time (again, speaking from NA experience). That was entirely a community push. You can read the event threads to see why people didn't want to deal with it forever, especially as the game put on years.

In combined arms events, pub events, whatever you want to call them, there has always been a mix of people who need to win and everybody else. I don't think anybody unironically wakes up in the morning and thinks, you know what would make this a perfect day? Losing! But there are plenty of people who just don't care. Plenty of people just jump on the game to meme with their friends or walk into cannonballs, or plant sapper crates in earthworks to try to blow up enemies charging artillery even if it would have been more effective to run to the rest of the team and melee with them. Those sorts of people were never interested in competitive. They try to win, sure, but they're more interested in fun. But the things that make the casual players laugh are the things that make competitive players flip tables (e.g., having the entire line deleted by a howitzer shell).
I guess what I'd ask is you think that split could actually be fully overcome without sacrificing the interests of either group, realizing as well that there is a crossover of players who like doing both at different times.
Xethos’ game looks like the Matrix slowly being corrupted and deconstructed by Agent Smith every time he steps foot on a Warlance server.

Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #101 on: January 06, 2019, 09:31:55 pm »

My understanding at this point is that BCoF's server settings will be extensive enough to allow for different kinds of game play. You could probably prevail on somebody who runs a server to get the kind of setup you want with enough convincing (or get your own server if you have the means).

I dont just think its me but I get your point. I'm encouraged that you feel a more 'realistic' gameplay is possible currently with BCoF. I do however get the impression BCoF is and will be heavily influenced by the NW Competitive community, whether thats a good thing or bad we'll see.

Offline Duke Of LongTree

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #102 on: January 06, 2019, 09:56:02 pm »

My understanding at this point is that BCoF's server settings will be extensive enough to allow for different kinds of game play. You could probably prevail on somebody who runs a server to get the kind of setup you want with enough convincing (or get your own server if you have the means).

I dont just think its me but I get your point. I'm encouraged that you feel a more 'realistic' gameplay is possible currently with BCoF. I do however get the impression BCoF is and will be heavily influenced by the NW Competitive community, whether thats a good thing or bad we'll see.

lol the NW Comp community just do group fights and 1v1 linebattles they are not really influencing Bcof ...
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 09:58:13 pm by Duke Of LongTree »

Offline Charles Caldwell

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2019, 10:50:13 pm »

lol the NW Comp community just do group fights and 1v1 linebattles they are not really influencing Bcof ...

Well reading between the lines and knowing the love of Melee only comps within the NW Community, It seems Melee within BCoF is being given equal prominace in what is predominantly musketry game. Im sure we might find other concessions as the game progresses.

Offline Dazzer

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #104 on: January 06, 2019, 10:56:31 pm »
Two, the stupid pinky finger at the end. Try pushing down a ramrod with just a pinky. It won't work.
1:42

https://youtu.be/VCAYXQ1Z6q4?t=101