Author Topic: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8  (Read 51222 times)

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Offline John Price

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #30 on: December 25, 2018, 02:49:37 am »
will this not also alienate new players compared to veterans?
Chambering is a mechanic that is difficult to master and only experienced players will be able to perform it on a regular basis. It is a feature that will require experience and skill. As such, players that regularly play the game will be rewarded for that with the ability to perform chambers.
So essentially you are?

Skill and Experience should be a reward of its own, not seal clubbing new players.

Lets use World of Tanks as an example. You get your first Tier 4 tank, you get matched up against lots of experienced players driving around in their Tier 6 tanks with big derp guns that 1 shot you. Without anything you can do about it. That game has been suffering upwards of 10% of player loss a year with even less people signing up and playing past tier 6 which is actually when the game gets fun.

BCoF, New player steps in, attacks someone, gets chambered instantly and dies not understanding why he couldn't block etc. In NW us reg leaders teach our members for hours how to chamber enough to counter the regiments we face (competitively speaking), thats alot of time we have to spend just because of a flawed system but thats because there is no casual community. Do you not want one in BCoF?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 02:53:14 am by John Price »
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Offline Olafson

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #31 on: December 25, 2018, 02:59:57 am »
As I said, if it turns out to be a silly feature we will remove it. But as it stands right now, I see no problem with making a more "advanced" melee system.

Yes, you could only have blocking and attacking. But then more experienced players are still going to be better at the game. It won't change a thing. It will just remove a feature from the game. And that makes no sense. Removing features from a game shouldn't happen unless there is a real reason for it.

With your logic, would you also want to remove reduced aiming sway/shake when bayonets aren't fixed? Or a Fuse lenght timer for artillery? Or a realistic bullet system with bullet drop and ricochets? All of this are features that only experienced players will really profit from.

Of course you can make a game extremely casual, but whats the point. You want players to return back to the game and try to get better. You want to offer stuff that requires time to master. What you want is a system that is easy to get into, but difficult to master. That will make players play the game because they want to get better. Casuals can still play the game without further knowledge of these features, as they won't be gamebreaking or off putting. You don't have to master them to play the game. It is simply offering additional depth to the game.

The entire melee system of blocking and attacking with 4 swing directions is already complicated in itself. There are almost no games that have it. Do you want to remove that to appeal to casual players only? You would end up with a game that has no unique features and is boring to play for more than 2 minutes. You would know about all of the features of the game after playing one round. There would be nothing new to learn and discover. As a player, there would be nothing to specialize in.
In BCoF there will be some people that are extremely good at shooting, others that are extremely good in melee and others that are extremely good at artillery. Do you want to get rid of that by making the game so simple and casual that there is no point in specializing? That there is no point in spending additional time in the game to get better than others?


"All the best games are easy to learn and difficult to master."
If everything is easy to learn and there is nothing to master, the game is just boring. People won't return back to it.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 03:23:33 am by Olafson »

Offline John Price

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #32 on: December 25, 2018, 03:42:44 am »
What actually are you talking about? You have twisted my point then gone on a rant whilst avoiding the topic I began.

At no point did I say "Make the game easier just so its completely casual", what I actually said was "Don't implement BS melee features that will seal club new players".

Try to keep in mind that if a player comes in, doesn't have a good experience and just gets seal clubbed, they will refund the game not think "Oh I am going to devote 20 hours next week just learning melee mechanics just so I can play the game". Try to remember those players are going to be heavily outnumbered by NW players are they not? I have never once seen any public announcement or Demo from this game. So who will buy it and play it because 2/3 of the NW players who you announced this to have actually entered adulthood now.

I'm all for making melee more advanced/adding a parry system, but you specifically used the word CHAMBERING. So we are going off what it looks like in NW. I remember being taught to chamber back in 2011 when I was a Cadet in the 84e, I remember jumping on 84e siege and literally racking up hundreds of kills just because nobody understood how to counter a chamber, and this stayed the same until 2014 when the competitive scene really came into full swing. If its a differen't system do please enlighten me.

Anyways, this is my opinion and whether or not you take it in is up to you. My advice is protecting the players will protect the growth of your game not the other way around.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 03:49:12 am by John Price »
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Offline HaroldW

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #33 on: December 25, 2018, 04:53:02 am »
I've been playing public servers for the past four years, so believe me when I say chambering is in no way as common, or even viable, as you are making it out to be. Chambering is extremely situational and relies upon your opponent being very predictable. Hell in most cases, ping + rotation during combat make chambering highly impractical and nigh impossible.

I suggest you turn your attention towards spintards and feint spammers - a far more unrealistic and annoying problem.


Update: I just went on deathmatch and successfully chambered around 85.7% of the players. For a brief, fleeting moment I forgot just how moronic and docile the average NW player is.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 05:12:53 am by HaroldW »

Offline John Price

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #34 on: December 25, 2018, 05:36:54 am »
Yup
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Offline Dust

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2018, 07:37:37 am »
chriseh ur retarded so stfu pls

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #36 on: December 25, 2018, 08:12:39 am »
Gamers rise

Offline Thunderstormer

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2018, 11:28:41 am »
I don't really get why you are focused on chambering of all things when it comes to melee, and calling it seal clubbing.  Most of the casuals and new players can barely block(if they even tried) and were slaughtered regardless, after you blocked their attack then stabbed them.  Most didn't even bother to watch their back, and were backstabbed without even knowing enemies were there.  Add on to the fact that many of the "experienced" players would abuse animations and have a seizure while they were feinting making it impossible for the casual to know what the attack was.  Chambering wasn't even all that effective, as you had to be close enough to do it, and not mess up while doing it.  The higher the ping, the more challenging it is.  Against most players, you were just better off blocking then attacking.  If they knew how to block, then you started throwing in chambers, more feints, holds, spams, and kicks. 

Heck, even most of the experienced players can't block a sword.  I am always amazed over the years, at least on NA, how many of the "best" meleers would melt like butter the moment they fought a sword.  If you want to know what real seal clubbing is in NW, play cav during a steam sale.  i guess most regs never bothered to try fighting people with swords to get better at it.  same with cav.    Probably one reason why events keep throwing in stupid rules in to try to curtail cav. 

Anyways, as olaf said.  We will be doing a lot of testing on melee in our builds, and tests with others as the game gets closer to release.  Its going to be something we spend a lot of time working on.  We will do what we can to make it fun for all players.     Something to keep in mind too is that shooting will be deadlier in BCoF.  The weapons are more accurate and deadlier in general.  So just ramboing around meleeing everyone wont be as easy, unless you are on a part of a map that is more conducive to getting in close to the enemy.(or weather making shooting accurately harder)  Shooting and melee are still being worked on, and maps are still being made/worked on.   All of which will effect how the game plays. 
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Offline Syncmaster667

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2018, 01:27:39 pm »
Loving the look of the new melee stuff, should help people like me who are still shit at melee after 5 years of NW xD
Nice little snow gif at the bottom aswell, guessing yous have got more weather types then rather than just sunny days :D

Just a quick question as ive noticed some devs post sometimes thought my years of seeing the FSE forums, how many do you currently have on your team?

Keep up the good work!
With the addition of a new programmer, there are 5 devs.(i dont think the new guy has an account here.)   there are a fair amount of people helping with things like making maps, or other stuff as well.

Oh thats cool, so i guess yous tell them what to make ect ye? So like a map maker makes a LB style map for yous but someone else maybe makes a new object with texture for that map.
Will we possibly get a blog on either maps or gamemodes that might be available at a public launch excluding your private alpha testers.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 01:35:00 pm by Syncmaster667 »

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2018, 10:45:12 am »
Loving the look of the new melee stuff, should help people like me who are still shit at melee after 5 years of NW xD
Nice little snow gif at the bottom aswell, guessing yous have got more weather types then rather than just sunny days :D

Just a quick question as ive noticed some devs post sometimes thought my years of seeing the FSE forums, how many do you currently have on your team?

Keep up the good work!
With the addition of a new programmer, there are 5 devs.(i dont think the new guy has an account here.)   there are a fair amount of people helping with things like making maps, or other stuff as well.

Oh thats cool, so i guess yous tell them what to make ect ye? So like a map maker makes a LB style map for yous but someone else maybe makes a new object with texture for that map.
Will we possibly get a blog on either maps or gamemodes that might be available at a public launch excluding your private alpha testers.
not necessarily.  we discuss at our meetings what we want to do next, and what will be needed to make it done.  my job is just to figure out what to do and make it work, after we discuss what we want.  after i get it working, i tell them how to make it work on the map.  then its on to testing, refinement, bug fixing, and possibly rework if its something we want to do differently. 

as for maps and gamemodes, i would assume when we have plenty of maps done to fill a blog, we will show them off, highlighting certain parts of the map.   As for game modes, we have several of them done.  They will need to be tested for both bugs and possibly tweaks to the "rules" for the game modes to make them more enjoyable.  Not to mention map balance and any bugs that may be on a specific map.    There is only so much we can test as devs, so much of this will be tested in the more public versions of the game. 

and of course there is UI that will need to be worked on for them.   
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Offline Steinmann

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2018, 05:56:55 pm »
Looks better then holdfast atleast

Offline Miller786

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2018, 12:09:38 am »
I personally don't understand the big deal about chambering, it's risky and requires pretty good timing to pull off.
New players will be clubbed even without chambering by experienced players that know how to melee, that's just the way it is. Also in my opinion chambering adds a layer of depth to melee combat that would otherwise be boring, it is useful to break the attack/block stalemate that always happens between two experienced players, the ability to chamber could be the factor that determines the better one and will prevent a fight from lasting 20 minutes.
I don't see how this feature is any different from learning the normal melee system...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 12:11:37 am by Miller786 »

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2018, 01:21:17 am »
I personally don't understand the big deal about chambering, it's risky and requires pretty good timing to pull off.
New players will be clubbed even without chambering by experienced players that know how to melee, that's just the way it is. Also in my opinion chambering adds a layer of depth to melee combat that would otherwise be boring, it is useful to break the attack/block stalemate that always happens between two experienced players, the ability to chamber could be the factor that determines the better one and will prevent a fight from lasting 20 minutes.
I don't see how this feature is any different from learning the normal melee system...

chambering is literally braindead and not risky if you know how to play the game
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Sleek somehow only attacks when he’s successfully pulled a dude away and his team is coming to help - as in, the most reasonable time to continue blocking

Offline Steinmann

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2018, 02:02:01 am »
I personally don't understand the big deal about chambering, it's risky and requires pretty good timing to pull off.
New players will be clubbed even without chambering by experienced players that know how to melee, that's just the way it is. Also in my opinion chambering adds a layer of depth to melee combat that would otherwise be boring, it is useful to break the attack/block stalemate that always happens between two experienced players, the ability to chamber could be the factor that determines the better one and will prevent a fight from lasting 20 minutes.
I don't see how this feature is any different from learning the normal melee system...

chambering is literally braindead and not risky if you know how to play the game
reeee I NEVER LEARNED HOW TO CHAMBER I WANT THIS REMOVED NOW!

Offline Vincenzo

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Re: Developer Blog 37 - Battle Cry of Freedom Part 8 (MIGHT TAKE LONG TO LOAD)
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2018, 09:49:57 am »
I programmed the melee and chamber system in BCoF so maybe i have some insight.
First of all it will not be EXACTLY like in NW/Warband, diffirences of timings will exist as well as animations.
Stuns naturally are difirent too.

All of this is still under development/testing as such once we open it up for public alpha you guys can come in, both melee pro as melee hater. and give your opinion on the system, we have a very dynamic one, and we can change any timing, any variable and change any speed of animation at any stage quite easily so we can ensure we get melee RIGHT.

For me personally it is one of the most important parts of NW/Warband and I will make sure that it is good.

I understand the argument about experienced players vs new ones, but you will always have that with a game like this. that is something a tutorial can help in a bit, but people don't play that anyway, the best thing is they jump on some public siege server or something and start shooting away, and learn melee slowely.