Best General of All Time?

[Mr T]

Grouchy was delayed in his pursuit anyway because after Ligny, the cavalry sent to find out which direction they went reported that the army was headed east, this was because a force of fugitives of around 8000 men or so was fleeing in this direction but the Prussian army was headed for Wavre.

[Archduke Sven]

Because when you can hear the battle from miles away and the reinforcements you're pursuing get smaller, you can usually tell something is up.

How would he know they were getting smaller?

The Hussar patrol reports he got that day reported the whole Prussian army being there, and it didn't seem like it was decreasing as he was essentially fighting the same force all day. He can't see the battlefield from a birds eye view.

[Duuring]

Apart from that, Southern Belgium is a rather hilly area, and with the addition of battle-smoke and trees (it was full summer), visibility is minimum. He really couldn't have known, as Sven rightfully points out.

[ClearlyInvsible]

I'm aware of Lingey.

But Grouchy himself admitted that he thought the battle was going on for too long, he heard the cannon shots and continued to follow the orders instead of follow his initiative. That's enough for me to want to trade him out for Davout.

Sven:
He went from fighting an entire army to merely a Corps, that's a noticeable drop in manpower.

[Duuring]

I'm aware of Lingey.

But Grouchy himself admitted that he thought the battle was going on for too long, he heard the cannon shots and continued to follow the orders instead of follow his initiative. That's enough for me to want to trade him out for Davout.

There were two options

A. Go against Napoleons EXPLICIT orders and let the Prussians go, essentially throwing away the Ligny-Victory.
B. Fight on and hope for the best.

He went from fighting an entire army to merely a Corps, that's a noticeable drop in manpower.

No it's not. All he saw during the pursuit the back of that corps, as the rest of the Prussians had already escaped anyway. And he couldn't see most if anyway. As a commanding General, a good deal of your campaign-decisions, as opposed to battle-decisions, are based on reports instead of your own eyes. It was reported to him that it was the full army in front of him, and there was no reason to question that report. Some people got nervous when they heard the battle sounds and suggested moving to the sounds, but Grouchy had really no reason to listen to that. Once again, it would be against his explicit orders, written by Napoleon himself. He knew that there would be a battle that day, and he also knew he was not to take part in it.

[Mr T]

Bearing in mind also that the Prussians re-organizing themselves, rallying and marching to Wavre was not what the French were expecting, it seemed likely after Ligny that the Prussians would surely retreat East, and the early reports indicated this, and any other army commanders but Blucher and his staff probably would've done. But it was the skill and leadership of the Prussian commanders that kept their army together and pushed these troops on and on to Wavre then Waterloo. The Prussian army conducted unprecedented accomplishments in the Waterloo campaign, they suffered through skirmishing with the French on the 14th and 15th, then suffered a demoralizing setback at Ligny, but it still kept going, marching through the night to Wavre then the early morning of the 18th through boggy and poor roads to reach Waterloo.

Grouchy would never have even guessed that the Prussians were already preparing to march on Waterloo, even after his delays.

[Archduke Sven]

I'm aware of Lingey.


But Grouchy himself admitted that he thought the battle was going on for too long, he heard the cannon shots and continued to follow the orders instead of follow his initiative. That's enough for me to want to trade him out for Davout.

Sven:
He went from fighting an entire army to merely a Corps, that's a noticeable drop in manpower.

It's worth pointing out he said that in hindsight. Grouchy was very experienced, he had been leading armies for the past decade with success. He followed his orders, he followed his instinct to stay to his orders.

Sure, Davout may have accomplished more astonishing feats, and proven to be the best tactician of the age, along with Napoleon. However Napoleon knew very well that this campaign would be controlled by him in a tight area, thus the autonomy and skill of command Davout may have had, would have gone wasted, furthermore Napoleon needed talented administrators, which was another gift Davout had which would have gone to waste had he been on the field. Thus Grouchy was a much better choice, since he was experienced and proven to be trustworthy and follow orders and wasn't needed for other important posts.

And Grouchy never fought the whole Prussian army at one point, he fought the same troops all day at Wavre.

[ClearlyInvsible]

I guess we can all just blame Blucher for being a crazy bastard

[Duuring]

The entire behavior of the Prussian forces between Ligny and Waterloo was just one big win-or-lose gamble by Blücher. The Prussian army was badly mauled at Ligny and it lost entire units on that day. Retreating to safety and re-enforcements would ensure that the army would not suffer more. Going to help the Allies in the hope that they would give battle and not retreat to the north, was very risky.

Let's not forget that Wellington had promised Blucher the 5th UK Division under Picton to help at Ligny. He then had to use those troops to hold the crossroads; Blücher got nothing yet kept on fighting as long as possible in hope for re-enforcements, lost, and if he had said 'Well damn those British betrayers', packed up and gone home at that point, nobody could really blame him. Luckily for the Allied, Blücher's extreme hatred for Napoleon somewhat clouded his judgement.

I guess we can all just blame Blucher for being a crazy bastard

Yes.

Little bit of extra crap for those who care about the Waterloo campaign.

Quatre-bras was somewhat of a draw. Ney was not able to conquer the crossroads, but at the same time the Allied were unable to hold it without the help of the 5th Division.
Then there are those that argue that the Allied saved the Prussians by keeping Ney occupied, but that's a two-cutting knife, as the Allies were also unable to help Blücher. However, if there had been no troops at Quatre-bras to hold the crosspoints, Ney would have occupied it while Napoleon fought Ligny. This would not only allow D'Erlon to re-enforce Napoleon, but would also have made very hard for Wellington and Blücher to connect their armies.

I presume that Wellington would have retreated north, met up with his reserves at Halle and would have tried to win a defensive battle somewhere in Northern Belgium. The only advantage Wellington would have had is the knowledge that Napoleon HAD to destroy the Allied army quickly to race to another part of France to defend against the Austrians or Russians, and decisions made in haste are often not very good ones. Maybe even Blücher would have regrouped and marched behind Napoleons forces. Anyway, while the war might have been prolonged by a month or two, as long as the Allied kept to their agreements, Napoleon could not have won.

[close]

[ClearlyInvsible]

Say what you will about Blucher, that man had balls of STEEL.

[Bruin]

Gebhard von Blücher

Had an amazing mustache.

[Dan the Seagull Chef]

Say what you will about Blucher, that man had balls of STEEL.

Most great generals had them.

[TheRedRedcoat]

I know this thread is about generals but I feel I need to throw in some more admirals for discussion.

Yi was a great one. He defeated vastly superior forces while his country had limited access to resources. Nelson always needs to be mentioned simply because of Trafalgar. But a quote from Master and Commander sums up my opinion on him: "some would say not a great seaman, but a great leader". His tactics were pretty straightforward. He basically just said straight at them. But he had the mind of a leader that many military commanders lacked sorely. I always liked that both those admirals met death in their hours of triumph.

A less mentioned one is Pierre du Suffern. He was able to hold off the British Indian oceans squadron during the American Revolutionary War. Always inflicting more casualties than he took, he is a sort of Rommel of the French navy.
De Ruyter was a good Dutch one. He was able to effectively combat the English in the Anglo Dutch war and succeeded in defeating the spaniards and French while having vastly inferior forces.

[Duuring]

I don't think De Ruyter ever fought the Spaniards. But yeah, he was a pretty bad-ass guy. Superior to Nelson if you ask me, but that's really kicking the column of consensus.

[Killington]

Damn officer aiming.