Author Topic: North American Community List-NaCl Reborn [Update 2.0: The NaCl Floweth]  (Read 144379 times)

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Offline Fartknocker

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Postscript: The Problem with Lists
Spoiler
Why lists are always going to be flawed: a breakdown
   
Another day, another list that people find flaws in. Perhaps the most consistent aspect of melee lists is the varied nature of rankings - and the disagreement that will always come with it. The most likely scenario, then is not that we merely need to find the right rankings, or assuming that there is a “right” rankings. Instead, it’s that melee lists will always be controversial and flawed for at least 5 reasons:

1. The impact of a frag
2. The intangibles - IQ, teamplay, communication
3. External stressors
4. Technical limitations
5. Lack of statistics beyond KD’s


   Frag impact: It is often, but not always the case, that first picks in groupfights are important and impactful frags. It is often the case, too, that getting two kills in a 1v5 but losing the clutch is not an example of useful or impactful frags. As well, fragging fluctuates based upon where you are in the groupfight, who you’re with, and the quality of the opposite team. Importantly, none of these are factored into groupfighting rankings! How much of anyone’s kills are impactful? If that question can’t be answered, then the only quantifiable variable that can be taken into account is itself not even as solid of a measure of rating as it often is taken as.

   How do you measure someone’s groupfighting IQ against another person? How do you rank teamplay between players? How important is the quality of communication impactful or measureable? None of these factors are (yet!) measurable, and yet supposedly are taken into account when discussing rating. One of groupfighting’s most important tenants, awareness, is not something that you can measure or statistically analyze in any meaningful way, so to assign a number to someone’s groupfighting skill without being able to assign a number to someone's groupfighting awareness is deeply problematic.

   Ever had cold fingers or stress affect gameplay? How about being yelled at by a family member? If the effect on performance in more commonplace activities can’t be accurately measured by scientists, how is it even remotely possible to have any sense on how external stressors affect NW gameplay? It seems like a significant variable to control for, but since it can’t even be calculated, it certainly can’t be controlled for.

   There has been many documented cases of increased fps or a better computer having a positive on gameplay, but there has also been cases of players overcoming technical limitation. So, how much does this variable factor into melee rankings? I certainly can’t tell you.

   Often people gripe about the possibility of assists being calculated in NW. That highlights an important problem - only two statistics are measured by the game: kills and deaths. Somehow list makers extrapolate many different statistics (usefulness, tactics, etc) from a game that only calculates kills and deaths. Perhaps a reason why lists vary between people is that they all use different criteria, and none of them have an agreed upon statistical footing. Until stats like KAST, RWS or something to that affect are able to calculated in NW, getting a picture of a players impact is going to be purely a personal opinion.

   In conclusion, lists are bunk, and we really should stop this charade that lists are realistic in any way.
[close]

https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=34981.new#new

Actually, there are way more precise ways to measure and rate melee.

Spoiler

[close]

Can't say I agree with your conclusion though. Lists are opinion-based. I dunno why you feel this is anything new, and I don't know why you feel like they should be disbanded because of it.

You don't get a prize for being on a list. They aren't tournaments. They aren't even really popularity contests. They are just opinion. That is their purpose.

The only mistake people are making is taking them too seriously.
63e pawn in an anti-63e world.

Offline KillerShark

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I say his name and he appears :O
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Offline Sgt.Winters

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fuck man...

Offline ~NickCole~

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I remember a current top 10 regiment list use to be on this thread and there is a hall of fame for regiments. I use different ways of determining the list (you will see that in the reasoning) and there are several regiments you can move around (based on people's opinion) but overall I think it is a good list. I got bored and decided to finish the list and post it just to see what the community thinks.

Current Regiments
1. 71st
2. 98e
3. 6te
4. AEF
5. 63e
6. 87th
7. HRE
8. 15e
9. 78th
10. LIR
[close]

All-Time Regiments
1. 12th (L2 S1 NANWL Champs - 33 Victories - 2 Defeats)
2. 71st (S3 L1 Chamption, S2 L1 TNWL Champion - 200 Victories - 22 Defeats - 5 Ties)
3. 3eVolt (S6 L1 Champion, NARGL Champion - 181 Victories - 25 Defeats - 6 Ties)
4. 63e (S2, S4, & S6 L1 NANWL Champion - 3 NANWL League 1 wins speaks for itself)
5. 9y (Never Won a League - Unknown)
6. LG (S7 L1 NANWL Champion, S2 NAPL Champion - 80 Victories - 16 Defeats - 6 Ties)
7. 58e/91st (S5 L1 NANWL Champion, NWPC Champion - 42 Victories - 10 Defeats - 7 Ties)
8. 5th/75th (S2 L2 NANWL Champion, S1 L1 TNWL Champion - 71 - 22 Defeats - 4 Ties)
9. PSG (S6 L2 NANWL Champion - Unknown)
10. 45e (Never Won a League - 95 Victories - 36 Defeats - 6 Ties)
[close]

Reasons
This is my list for current top 10 NA and all time. Current is pretty obvious right now and all time for me was based on championships, record, regiment record vs another top 10 regiment, regiment's melee skill ,and how long they were dominant. USMC would be number 10 since they did win two league 2 titles in NWL. However, I give the edge to 45e because their record vs USMC in 1v1s is 5-1 (The one loss was against USMC for L2 title) & was a way better melee regiment then the USMC. Although 63e has 3 NANWL titles, both 71st and 3eVolt has a better record reg vs reg over the 63e.

12th - I don't think I need to say much for everyone to agree this was the best NA regiment of all time.
71st - It was a tight race with 3eVolt & 63e but I gave 71st the edge because of their 1v1 record & GF record vs 63e is simply better.
3eVolt - Well deserve 3rd spot for their long run of dominance over the years.
63e - 3 NANWL League 1 titles is impressive and Karth 1v1 leadership help them win a lot of 1v1s.
9y - Since they didn't last long and never won a league I put them at the 5th spot but I also recongize their amazing melee abilities.
LG - I put LG over the 58e/91st because if we compare primes for both regiment LG simply had a better roster (because of 45e guys) and 58e didn't have much competition to go against during their run compare to the LG vs 3eVolt rivalry.
58e/91st - When they were around at first weren't that great but quicker rose to become the best regiment during its run until losing a close 9-8 lose against 71st in the TNWL S2 L1 playoffs.
5th/75th - Great leadership by the due of Alex/Chan and great teamwork helped this group become one of the best regiments in NA history. Also known for the #underdogs meme & Alex great speech got them the victory when down 5-6 to the 18th.
PSG - This group took a long time to become good but they manage to finally become good and beat USMC for a League 2 title. KOSJ was a great leader that help PSG during its prime tied the 3eVolt after they just finish winning NANWL S6 L1.
45e - Although they never won any leagues, this group was still hard to beat in melee and lead by the duo of Nappy & DJ.
[close]

I got bored so I decided to make my top 10 current & all time regiments. I would do melee and leaders list but those are pretty controversial and only known the competitive community since late 2013 - early 2014 so I have no right to judge the older players. I wanted to do a top 10 all time NA regiment project with nappy a couple of years ago but we never got to finish it. Keep in mind regiment records might not be 100% accurate due to various reason and these numbers were based off of what I found from threads & TS.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 09:35:49 pm by NickCole »

Offline Moraine

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HRE are no way above the 15e in terms of groupfighting maybe, But in 1v1s I'd argue that jolly and Uni or even Gelnn and Uni Duo would easily beat the HRE 8-2 or 9-1



Offline Stroke0fd34th

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All-Time Regiments
1. 12th (L2 S1 NANWL Champs - 33 Victories - 2 Defeats)
2. 71st (S3 L1 Chamption, S2 L1 TNWL Champion - 200 Victories - 22 Defeats - 5 Ties)
3. 3eVolt (S6 L1 Champion, NARGL Champion - 181 Victories - 25 Defeats - 6 Ties)
4. 63e (S2, S4, & S6 L1 NANWL Champion - 3 NANWL League 1 wins speaks for itself)
5. 9y (Never Won a League - Unknown)
6. LG (S7 L1 NANWL Champion, S2 NAPL Champion - 61 Victories - 14 Defeats - 4 Ties)
7. 58e/91st (S5 L1 NANWL Champion, NWPC Champion - 42 Victories - 10 Defeats - 7 Ties)
8. 5th/75th (S2 L2 NANWL Champion, S1 L1 TNWL Champion - 71 - 22 Defeats - 4 Ties)
9. PSG (S6 L2 NANWL Champion - Unknown)
10. 45e (Never Won a League - 95 Victories - 36 Defeats - 6 Ties)
[close]

Reasons
This is my list for current top 10 NA and all time. Current is pretty obvious right now and all time for me was based on championships, record, regiment record vs another top 10 regiment, regiment's melee skill ,and how long they were dominant. USMC would be number 10 since they did win two league 2 titles in NWL. However, I give the edge to 45e because their record vs USMC in 1v1s is 5-1 (The one loss was against USMC for L2 title) & was a way better melee regiment then the USMC. Although 63e has 3 NANWL titles, both 71st and 3eVolt has a better record reg vs reg over the 63e.

12th - I don't think I need to say much for everyone to agree this was the best NA regiment of all time.
71st - It was a tight race with 3eVolt & 63e but I gave 71st the edge because of their 1v1 record & GF record vs 63e is simply better.
3eVolt - Well deserve 3rd spot for their long run of dominance over the years.
63e - 3 NANWL League 1 titles is impressive and Karth 1v1 leadership help them win a lot of 1v1s.
9y - Since they didn't last long and never won a league I put them at the 5th spot but I also recongize their amazing melee abilities.
LG - I put LG over the 58e/91st because if we compare primes for both regiment LG simply had a better roster (because of 45e guys) and 58e didn't have much competition to go against during their run compare to the LG vs 3eVolt rivalry.
58e/91st - When they were around at first weren't that great but quicker rose to become the best regiment during its run until losing a close 9-8 lose against 71st in the TNWL S2 L1 playoffs.
5th/75th - Great leadership by the due of Alex/Chan and great teamwork helped this group become one of the best regiments in NA history. Also known for the #underdogs meme & Alex great speech got them the victory when down 5-6 to the 18th.
PSG - This group took a long time to become good but they manage to finally become good and beat USMC for a League 2 title. KOSJ was a great leader that help PSG during its prime tied the 3eVolt after they just finish winning NANWL S6 L1.
45e - Although they never won any leagues, this group was still hard to beat in melee and lead by the duo of Nappy & DJ.
[close]

I will get to these later.

Offline Wastee

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LG's record is 80-6-16 gosh nickcole it's in the teamspeakkkk

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Offline Theodin

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Postscript: The Problem with Lists
Spoiler
Why lists are always going to be flawed: a breakdown
   
Another day, another list that people find flaws in. Perhaps the most consistent aspect of melee lists is the varied nature of rankings - and the disagreement that will always come with it. The most likely scenario, then is not that we merely need to find the right rankings, or assuming that there is a “right” rankings. Instead, it’s that melee lists will always be controversial and flawed for at least 5 reasons:

1. The impact of a frag
2. The intangibles - IQ, teamplay, communication
3. External stressors
4. Technical limitations
5. Lack of statistics beyond KD’s


   Frag impact: It is often, but not always the case, that first picks in groupfights are important and impactful frags. It is often the case, too, that getting two kills in a 1v5 but losing the clutch is not an example of useful or impactful frags. As well, fragging fluctuates based upon where you are in the groupfight, who you’re with, and the quality of the opposite team. Importantly, none of these are factored into groupfighting rankings! How much of anyone’s kills are impactful? If that question can’t be answered, then the only quantifiable variable that can be taken into account is itself not even as solid of a measure of rating as it often is taken as.

   How do you measure someone’s groupfighting IQ against another person? How do you rank teamplay between players? How important is the quality of communication impactful or measureable? None of these factors are (yet!) measurable, and yet supposedly are taken into account when discussing rating. One of groupfighting’s most important tenants, awareness, is not something that you can measure or statistically analyze in any meaningful way, so to assign a number to someone’s groupfighting skill without being able to assign a number to someone's groupfighting awareness is deeply problematic.

   Ever had cold fingers or stress affect gameplay? How about being yelled at by a family member? If the effect on performance in more commonplace activities can’t be accurately measured by scientists, how is it even remotely possible to have any sense on how external stressors affect NW gameplay? It seems like a significant variable to control for, but since it can’t even be calculated, it certainly can’t be controlled for.

   There has been many documented cases of increased fps or a better computer having a positive on gameplay, but there has also been cases of players overcoming technical limitation. So, how much does this variable factor into melee rankings? I certainly can’t tell you.

   Often people gripe about the possibility of assists being calculated in NW. That highlights an important problem - only two statistics are measured by the game: kills and deaths. Somehow list makers extrapolate many different statistics (usefulness, tactics, etc) from a game that only calculates kills and deaths. Perhaps a reason why lists vary between people is that they all use different criteria, and none of them have an agreed upon statistical footing. Until stats like KAST, RWS or something to that affect are able to calculated in NW, getting a picture of a players impact is going to be purely a personal opinion.

   In conclusion, lists are bunk, and we really should stop this charade that lists are realistic in any way.
[close]

https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=34981.new#new

Actually, there are way more precise ways to measure and rate melee.

Spoiler

[close]

Can't say I agree with your conclusion though. Lists are opinion-based. I dunno why you feel this is anything new, and I don't know why you feel like they should be disbanded because of it.

You don't get a prize for being on a list. They aren't tournaments. They aren't even really popularity contests. They are just opinion. That is their purpose.

The only mistake people are making is taking them too seriously.
I mean, okay, they’re opinions, but the very nature of a numbered list is that it’s a baseless opinion. It’s a meaningless slap of a number to a players name, so all lists are merely unfounded opinions. It’s bizarre that people with competent logic put any kind of stock or argument into lists when the nature of it is illogical.
The only mistake people are making is making mistaken lists in the first place

1x NA Duel- Runner up |  3x 3v3- 3rd place (Seadderol Deflatriots) (Ez Money) (71st Guards + Russian) | 1x Duel League- 4th place | 1x Regimental Groupfighting- 1st place (71st)  l  1x 2v2- 3rd Place (Vortex/Theodin) | TNWL Season 2 - 1st Place l 1x 2v2- 1st Place (Theodin/Elite) l 2x NANWL-
 71st, Nr8(LG) l 1x 4v4- 1st Place (RussianFury, Waste, NickCole, Theodin) l 1x Cav Joust- 2nd Place l 1x 4v4-
 3rd Place (Theodin, AsianP, Sleek, Godfried, Lurvy) l 1x 5v5 - 1st Place (RussianFury, Yoshie, Krastinov, Jorge, Theodin - Thanos and his children)

Offline Unitater

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HRE are no way above the 15e in terms of groupfighting maybe, But in 1v1s I'd argue that jolly and Uni or even Gelnn and Uni Duo would easily beat the HRE 8-2 or 9-1
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Offline Hugonaut

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Still salty.

No 29th=fake list

Offline KillerShark

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Still salty.

No 29th=fake list
May the revolution begin
Former: 29th CSjt, 12th Cpl, Nr37 Kpl, 21eme SoD, 18th LtCol, 1stMN/64th SgtMaj, 23rdPA SgtMaj, 45e CplFo, 78th ESO, 29th Capt, 57th Kgm, LG Fus, 71st Cpl, 34e SoD, 2ndQF LCpl, LG Uffz, Nr4 Gmnr, 98e SoD, 75e Fus, 18e FusV, 47th Grd, and 21st Pte.

Self Proclaimed best movement key player NA

Offline ~NickCole~

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LG's record is 80-6-16 gosh nickcole it's in the teamspeakkkk
I don’t have the ts anymore my bad. Moraine 15e needs to prove to me that they are better than HRE. Theo for a top 10 regiment list you can at least use record (a little bit), how regiment played against other top 10 regiments, how many 1v1s they won against the best regiments at the time, leagues won, and etc. Compared to melee lists when everyone wants to just base it on a ft7 or how many kills someone can get in 1 match.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 09:26:07 pm by NickCole »

Offline ~Midnight~

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HRE are no way above the 15e in terms of groupfighting maybe, But in 1v1s I'd argue that jolly and Uni or even Gelnn and Uni Duo would easily beat the HRE 8-2 or 9-1

Offline AP0CALYPS3

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Well there is your problem right there. Your logic is flawed, and here is why.

I mean, okay, they’re opinions, but the very nature of a numbered list is that it’s a baseless opinion.

They aren't baseless. You can question their accuracy, but to say they are baseless is just wrong.

Quote
It’s a meaningless slap of a number to a players name

They aren't meaningless. Lest people wouldn't get so worked up over them, or seek validation from, like you and almost everyone else has.

Quote
so all lists are merely unfounded opinions.

Not only is this just rephrasing what you had just said, you still don't really justify this.

Quote
It’s bizarre that people with competent logic put any kind of stock or argument into lists when the nature of it is illogical.

Again, lists aren't incredibly accurate, but they do have base. There is a difference between a player with nearing 4000 hours, playing for 6 years, or some random making a list. One would have base, the other would not, as the author themselves are the base of their list. That is why putting stock in them is not 'illogical', but putting too much stock is, because nobody is omniscient, with the ability to accurately rate every player who has ever played.

Quote
The only mistake people are making is making mistaken lists in the first place

Again, your conclusion doesn't really make sense to me, so you leave me little choice but to leave a bad review of your book on Amazon.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 11:05:03 pm by AP0CALYPS3 »

Offline Theodin

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So what's your criteria and how is measured? and how do you control for other variables?

1x NA Duel- Runner up |  3x 3v3- 3rd place (Seadderol Deflatriots) (Ez Money) (71st Guards + Russian) | 1x Duel League- 4th place | 1x Regimental Groupfighting- 1st place (71st)  l  1x 2v2- 3rd Place (Vortex/Theodin) | TNWL Season 2 - 1st Place l 1x 2v2- 1st Place (Theodin/Elite) l 2x NANWL-
 71st, Nr8(LG) l 1x 4v4- 1st Place (RussianFury, Waste, NickCole, Theodin) l 1x Cav Joust- 2nd Place l 1x 4v4-
 3rd Place (Theodin, AsianP, Sleek, Godfried, Lurvy) l 1x 5v5 - 1st Place (RussianFury, Yoshie, Krastinov, Jorge, Theodin - Thanos and his children)