Author Topic: 3w3 Swordfighting Tournament - "Le Pitchovina" MK.VII [0/16] | Summer Edition II  (Read 17176 times)

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Offline Shadey

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Imagine calling a team with Me and Kore in it stacked  ;D

Offline Fietta

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Imagine calling a team with Me and Kore in it stacked  ;D

I'm glad you mentioned the other two members of your team - you don't need to though because you clearly got the 1 up after your really well educated comment.

confused regards
trot888

Offline Shadey

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¿ ¿ wan’t join

Offline AccursedGull

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The rule worked perfectly fine in the last 3w3 sword only. Don’t see a need to change it
well the old rules say: "By 'native player', we mean the players who are considered and rated the best in the module at sword dueling/groupfighting"
idk how good they are in native and how strong the competition is there. Are they considered la creme de la creme in native?


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Offline Rikkert

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I think both sides have good points, but both sides are extremely flawed. If the reason for not allowing Native 'stacked' teams is because you want the tournament to be fun for the NW community (because it's an NW tournament so it makes sense) then why include Native players in the first place? You're probably like 'Because we want to include both communities!', yet at the same time there's very few top Native 1H duellists/group fighters who're A. Willing to participate in an NW tournament and B. Have any interest in group fighting in 2020. If we were being honest, which both sides aren't, the reason for the inclusion of 'Native' players is so the top teams can take the best active native group fighters who're obviously going to excel and have a large positive impact on the team. It's a bit silly being like 'We want the tournament to be fun so we're only allowing one native player', and then steal the best Native players, it's a win tactic. If it were all about the NW community and 'fun', you'd not have included the native players in the first place as you're already limiting native players from playing anyways. You either include both sides of the community, or neither; you can't pick and choose to suit your team or one side.

It's completely unreasonable saying it's for 'fun', then limiting the Native community (when there's already a lack of Native duellists who're willing to play).

kind regards
trot888
A jedi does not deal in absolutes  8). In all seriousness, I think it's fair for the tournament hosts to attempt to find a balance between the two extremes of "allowing full native teams" and "not allowing any native players". As you said there are arguments for both sides, and that is exactly why some sort of compromise is the best outcome. Simply excluding the native community that plays NW is not the aim of this tournament and that would be a silly rule to add/enforce. On the other hand, it is fair that the organizers want to keep this NW tournament fun for all NW players by not allowing coalitions of too many native players. So removing this rule completely is also not an option.

I agree that 1 native player max might be a bit harsh. As it would mean that every native player that wishes to participate would have to find a team of NW players in a community that he is unfamiliar with. Or it could lead to situations where friends like Darklight and Charlini (who always seem to play NW together) have to split up into different teams. Leading to a situation where one of them, or both might decide to not participate at all. Which would be a shame. Maybe it would be easier/cause less conflict if the rule was changed to max of 2 native players per team. There is still an NW element in every team, but it also makes it so native friends can play together, allowing for more people to participate.

Offline Fietta

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I think both sides have good points, but both sides are extremely flawed. If the reason for not allowing Native 'stacked' teams is because you want the tournament to be fun for the NW community (because it's an NW tournament so it makes sense) then why include Native players in the first place? You're probably like 'Because we want to include both communities!', yet at the same time there's very few top Native 1H duellists/group fighters who're A. Willing to participate in an NW tournament and B. Have any interest in group fighting in 2020. If we were being honest, which both sides aren't, the reason for the inclusion of 'Native' players is so the top teams can take the best active native group fighters who're obviously going to excel and have a large positive impact on the team. It's a bit silly being like 'We want the tournament to be fun so we're only allowing one native player', and then steal the best Native players, it's a win tactic. If it were all about the NW community and 'fun', you'd not have included the native players in the first place as you're already limiting native players from playing anyways. You either include both sides of the community, or neither; you can't pick and choose to suit your team or one side.

It's completely unreasonable saying it's for 'fun', then limiting the Native community (when there's already a lack of Native duellists who're willing to play).

kind regards
trot888
A jedi does not deal in absolutes  8). In all seriousness, I think it's fair for the tournament hosts to attempt to find a balance between the two extremes of "allowing full native teams" and "not allowing any native players". As you said there are arguments for both sides, and that is exactly why some sort of compromise is the best outcome. Simply excluding the native community that plays NW is not the aim of this tournament and that would be a silly rule to add/enforce. On the other hand, it is fair that the organizers want to keep this NW tournament fun for all NW players by not allowing coalitions of too many native players. So removing this rule completely is also not an option.

I agree that 1 native player max might be a bit harsh. As it would mean that every native player that wishes to participate would have to find a team of NW players in a community that he is unfamiliar with. Or it could lead to situations where friends like Darklight and Charlini (who always seem to play NW together) have to split up into different teams. Leading to a situation where one of them, or both might decide to not participate at all. Which would be a shame. Maybe it would be easier/cause less conflict if the rule was changed to max of 2 native players per team. There is still an NW element in every team, but it also makes it so native friends can play together, allowing for more people to participate.

If let's say 20 teams participate, that's X NW players and a maximum of 20 Native players, which isn't fair; so the reason for them to be included is for a win tactic, rather than actually being reasonable. If you were to let's say make it more fair by having a maximum roster of 4 (one can sub at any one time), with maximum 2 NW players and 2 Native players, which either can play at any one time, then you're right, it's for fun, as you can pick and choose between having 2 NW and 1 Native in a match and then 1 NW and 2 Native in another.

If you want it to be 'fair' so you can't just run 2 Native players all the time, you can make the format more complicated:

One round you can choose whatever you like, so 2 Native and 1 NW or 2 NW and 1 Native, however, the next round you're forced to do the opposite, so let's say you ran 2 NW and 1 Native in the first round, then the next round you're forced to do 2 Native and 1 NW etc. That way you'll have to manage your team so that every member gets fair play but also makes the tournament fair with some risk & reward.

kind regards
trot888

I edited my post since your reply, but this was something I suggested off the top of my head.

kind regards
trot888

Offline Shadey

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The rule worked perfectly fine in the last 3w3 sword only. Don’t see a need to change it
well the old rules say: "By 'native player', we mean the players who are considered and rated the best in the module at sword dueling/groupfighting"
idk how good they are in native and how strong the competition is there. Are they considered la creme de la creme in native?
Guess that’s up to Kore, seeing as he’s the tournament host  :)

Offline Rikkert

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I think both sides have good points, but both sides are extremely flawed. If the reason for not allowing Native 'stacked' teams is because you want the tournament to be fun for the NW community (because it's an NW tournament so it makes sense) then why include Native players in the first place? You're probably like 'Because we want to include both communities!', yet at the same time there's very few top Native 1H duellists/group fighters who're A. Willing to participate in an NW tournament and B. Have any interest in group fighting in 2020. If we were being honest, which both sides aren't, the reason for the inclusion of 'Native' players is so the top teams can take the best active native group fighters who're obviously going to excel and have a large positive impact on the team. It's a bit silly being like 'We want the tournament to be fun so we're only allowing one native player', and then steal the best Native players, it's a win tactic. If it were all about the NW community and 'fun', you'd not have included the native players in the first place as you're already limiting native players from playing anyways. You either include both sides of the community, or neither; you can't pick and choose to suit your team or one side.

It's completely unreasonable saying it's for 'fun', then limiting the Native community (when there's already a lack of Native duellists who're willing to play).

kind regards
trot888
A jedi does not deal in absolutes  8). In all seriousness, I think it's fair for the tournament hosts to attempt to find a balance between the two extremes of "allowing full native teams" and "not allowing any native players". As you said there are arguments for both sides, and that is exactly why some sort of compromise is the best outcome. Simply excluding the native community that plays NW is not the aim of this tournament and that would be a silly rule to add/enforce. On the other hand, it is fair that the organizers want to keep this NW tournament fun for all NW players by not allowing coalitions of too many native players. So removing this rule completely is also not an option.

I agree that 1 native player max might be a bit harsh. As it would mean that every native player that wishes to participate would have to find a team of NW players in a community that he is unfamiliar with. Or it could lead to situations where friends like Darklight and Charlini (who always seem to play NW together) have to split up into different teams. Leading to a situation where one of them, or both might decide to not participate at all. Which would be a shame. Maybe it would be easier/cause less conflict if the rule was changed to max of 2 native players per team. There is still an NW element in every team, but it also makes it so native friends can play together, allowing for more people to participate.

If let's say 20 teams participate, that's X NW players and a maximum of 20 Native players, which isn't fair; so the reason for them to be included is for a win tactic, rather than actually being reasonable. If you were to let's say make it more fair by having a maximum roster of 4 (one can sub at any one time), with maximum 2 NW players and 2 Native players, which either can play at any one time, then you're right, it's for fun, as you can pick and choose between having 2 NW and 1 Native in a match and then 1 NW and 2 Native in another.

If you want it to be 'fair' so you can't just run 2 Native players all the time, you can make the format more complicated:

One round you can choose whatever you like, so 2 Native and 1 NW or 2 NW and 1 Native, however, the next round you're forced to do the opposite, so let's say you ran 2 NW and 1 Native in the first round, then the next round you're forced to do 2 Native and 1 NW etc. That way you'll have to manage your team so that every member gets fair play but also makes the tournament fair with some risk & reward.

kind regards
trot888

I edited my post since your reply, but this was something I suggested off the top of my head.

kind regards
trot888
That rule works in theory, but good luck putting that into practice when you've got 4 servers with 4 arenas each running at the same time. With *cough* french *cough* teams that will pretend like someone dcd or like they suddenly dont understand english to delay until the referee gives in.

Offline LaPache

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I think both sides have good points, but both sides are extremely flawed. If the reason for not allowing Native 'stacked' teams is because you want the tournament to be fun for the NW community (because it's an NW tournament so it makes sense) then why include Native players in the first place? You're probably like 'Because we want to include both communities!', yet at the same time there's very few top Native 1H duellists/group fighters who're A. Willing to participate in an NW tournament and B. Have any interest in group fighting in 2020. If we were being honest, which both sides aren't, the reason for the inclusion of 'Native' players is so the top teams can take the best active native group fighters who're obviously going to excel and have a large positive impact on the team. It's a bit silly being like 'We want the tournament to be fun so we're only allowing one native player', and then steal the best Native players, it's a win tactic. If it were all about the NW community and 'fun', you'd not have included the native players in the first place as you're already limiting native players from playing anyways. You either include both sides of the community, or neither; you can't pick and choose to suit your team or one side.

It's completely unreasonable saying it's for 'fun', then limiting the Native community (when there's already a lack of Native duellists who're willing to play).

kind regards
trot888
A jedi does not deal in absolutes  8). In all seriousness, I think it's fair for the tournament hosts to attempt to find a balance between the two extremes of "allowing full native teams" and "not allowing any native players". As you said there are arguments for both sides, and that is exactly why some sort of compromise is the best outcome. Simply excluding the native community that plays NW is not the aim of this tournament and that would be a silly rule to add/enforce. On the other hand, it is fair that the organizers want to keep this NW tournament fun for all NW players by not allowing coalitions of too many native players. So removing this rule completely is also not an option.

I agree that 1 native player max might be a bit harsh. As it would mean that every native player that wishes to participate would have to find a team of NW players in a community that he is unfamiliar with. Or it could lead to situations where friends like Darklight and Charlini (who always seem to play NW together) have to split up into different teams. Leading to a situation where one of them, or both might decide to not participate at all. Which would be a shame. Maybe it would be easier/cause less conflict if the rule was changed to max of 2 native players per team. There is still an NW element in every team, but it also makes it so native friends can play together, allowing for more people to participate.

If let's say 20 teams participate, that's X NW players and a maximum of 20 Native players, which isn't fair; so the reason for them to be included is for a win tactic, rather than actually being reasonable. If you were to let's say make it more fair by having a maximum roster of 4 (one can sub at any one time), with maximum 2 NW players and 2 Native players, which either can play at any one time, then you're right, it's for fun, as you can pick and choose between having 2 NW and 1 Native in a match and then 1 NW and 2 Native in another.

If you want it to be 'fair' so you can't just run 2 Native players all the time, you can make the format more complicated:

One round you can choose whatever you like, so 2 Native and 1 NW or 2 NW and 1 Native, however, the next round you're forced to do the opposite, so let's say you ran 2 NW and 1 Native in the first round, then the next round you're forced to do 2 Native and 1 NW etc. That way you'll have to manage your team so that every member gets fair play but also makes the tournament fair with some risk & reward.

kind regards
trot888

I edited my post since your reply, but this was something I suggested off the top of my head.

kind regards
trot888
That rule works in theory, but good luck putting that into practice when you've got 4 servers with 4 arenas each running at the same time. With *cough* french *cough* teams that will pretend like someone dcd or like they suddenly dont understand english to delay until the referee gives in.
[close]
Yeah that is not gonna work. Either make it one or two native players per team. Both is fine

Offline Kore

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@fietta

How well do you think would your suggestion work in terms of administration? It would be much easier to implement this in Native standards as there are 0 to none tournaments that are played in one night - it could be easily abused if a referee doesn't notice that a team plays for example 2 native 1 NW line-up twice or more times in a row.
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Offline Gibby Jr

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I think both sides have good points, but both sides are extremely flawed. If the reason for not allowing Native 'stacked' teams is because you want the tournament to be fun for the NW community (because it's an NW tournament so it makes sense) then why include Native players in the first place? You're probably like 'Because we want to include both communities!', yet at the same time there's very few top Native 1H duellists/group fighters who're A. Willing to participate in an NW tournament and B. Have any interest in group fighting in 2020. If we were being honest, which both sides aren't, the reason for the inclusion of 'Native' players is so the top teams can take the best active native group fighters who're obviously going to excel and have a large positive impact on the team. It's a bit silly being like 'We want the tournament to be fun so we're only allowing one native player', and then steal the best Native players, it's a win tactic. If it were all about the NW community and 'fun', you'd not have included the native players in the first place as you're already limiting native players from playing anyways. You either include both sides of the community, or neither; you can't pick and choose to suit your team or one side.

It's completely unreasonable saying it's for 'fun', then limiting the Native community (when there's already a lack of Native duellists who're willing to play).

kind regards
trot888
A jedi does not deal in absolutes  8). In all seriousness, I think it's fair for the tournament hosts to attempt to find a balance between the two extremes of "allowing full native teams" and "not allowing any native players". As you said there are arguments for both sides, and that is exactly why some sort of compromise is the best outcome. Simply excluding the native community that plays NW is not the aim of this tournament and that would be a silly rule to add/enforce. On the other hand, it is fair that the organizers want to keep this NW tournament fun for all NW players by not allowing coalitions of too many native players. So removing this rule completely is also not an option.

I agree that 1 native player max might be a bit harsh. As it would mean that every native player that wishes to participate would have to find a team of NW players in a community that he is unfamiliar with. Or it could lead to situations where friends like Darklight and Charlini (who always seem to play NW together) have to split up into different teams. Leading to a situation where one of them, or both might decide to not participate at all. Which would be a shame. Maybe it would be easier/cause less conflict if the rule was changed to max of 2 native players per team. There is still an NW element in every team, but it also makes it so native friends can play together, allowing for more people to participate.
[close]

This discussion has been massively over complicated for no reason.

The rule exists so that the tournament remains fun for NW players by making them the deciding factor in every match, not the Native players. If a team were able to have 2 Native players on it, and for argument’s sake let’s say it was myself with Arni, the 3rd member - the ACTUAL NW PLAYER - would be totally irrelevant. Their job would just be to not die while the Native players play the game. How is that ideal when it’s an NW tournament?

The discussion about Charlini and Darklight is nonsense. Charlini is the founder of FT, one of the greatest Native teams of all time, and while Darklight started as an NW cav player some years ago he has had Native as his main module for the past 4 years.

If Charlini and Darklight were to be counted as NW players, you’d have to count myself, LaPache and Maxime as NW players too. You don’t need many brain cells to see how stacked a team you could then make. I’d be able to make a team that was me, Arni and Maxime. That team would be unbeatable on Native in 3v3, so how does it seem reasonable to anyone to let such a stack ruin the fun for any/all NW players that are interested in this tournament?
you are as weak as whales by acting like that.

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Offline Fietta

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I think both sides have good points, but both sides are extremely flawed. If the reason for not allowing Native 'stacked' teams is because you want the tournament to be fun for the NW community (because it's an NW tournament so it makes sense) then why include Native players in the first place? You're probably like 'Because we want to include both communities!', yet at the same time there's very few top Native 1H duellists/group fighters who're A. Willing to participate in an NW tournament and B. Have any interest in group fighting in 2020. If we were being honest, which both sides aren't, the reason for the inclusion of 'Native' players is so the top teams can take the best active native group fighters who're obviously going to excel and have a large positive impact on the team. It's a bit silly being like 'We want the tournament to be fun so we're only allowing one native player', and then steal the best Native players, it's a win tactic. If it were all about the NW community and 'fun', you'd not have included the native players in the first place as you're already limiting native players from playing anyways. You either include both sides of the community, or neither; you can't pick and choose to suit your team or one side.

It's completely unreasonable saying it's for 'fun', then limiting the Native community (when there's already a lack of Native duellists who're willing to play).

kind regards
trot888
A jedi does not deal in absolutes  8). In all seriousness, I think it's fair for the tournament hosts to attempt to find a balance between the two extremes of "allowing full native teams" and "not allowing any native players". As you said there are arguments for both sides, and that is exactly why some sort of compromise is the best outcome. Simply excluding the native community that plays NW is not the aim of this tournament and that would be a silly rule to add/enforce. On the other hand, it is fair that the organizers want to keep this NW tournament fun for all NW players by not allowing coalitions of too many native players. So removing this rule completely is also not an option.

I agree that 1 native player max might be a bit harsh. As it would mean that every native player that wishes to participate would have to find a team of NW players in a community that he is unfamiliar with. Or it could lead to situations where friends like Darklight and Charlini (who always seem to play NW together) have to split up into different teams. Leading to a situation where one of them, or both might decide to not participate at all. Which would be a shame. Maybe it would be easier/cause less conflict if the rule was changed to max of 2 native players per team. There is still an NW element in every team, but it also makes it so native friends can play together, allowing for more people to participate.
[close]

This discussion has been massively over complicated for no reason.

The rule exists so that the tournament remains fun for NW players by making them the deciding factor in every match, not the Native players. If a team were able to have 2 Native players on it, and for argument’s sake let’s say it was myself with Arni, the 3rd member - the ACTUAL NW PLAYER - would be totally irrelevant. Their job would just be to not die while the Native players play the game. How is that ideal when it’s an NW tournament?

The discussion about Charlini and Darklight is nonsense. Charlini is the founder of FT, one of the greatest Native teams of all time, and while Darklight started as an NW cav player some years ago he has had Native as his main module for the past 4 years.

If Charlini and Darklight were to be counted as NW players, you’d have to count myself, LaPache and Maxime as NW players too. You don’t need many brain cells to see how stacked a team you could then make. I’d be able to make a team that was me, Arni and Maxime. That team would be unbeatable on Native in 3v3, so how does it seem reasonable to anyone to let such a stack ruin the fun for any/all NW players that are interested in this tournament?

Why not just remove Native players from the tournament? That'll make it more fun for NW players? Alternatively, you could find another way which allows it to be fair for both modules (Which means limiting who can play in what round for example). You can't justify this tournament being made for 'fun', when you're limiting Native players and stealing the top ones from Native who could 1v3 most NW players in sword combat (not with ease, but there's a good chance), it completely removed the 'fun'.

@fietta

How well do you think would your suggestion work in terms of administration? It would be much easier to implement this in Native standards as there are 0 to none tournaments that are played in one night - it could be easily abused if a referee doesn't notice that a team plays for example 2 native 1 NW line-up twice or more times in a row.

Don't really know how NW tournament are ran, however, I'm sure you could find a way which allows this sorta system to work, and if it does work, would set a healthy precedent for future NW sword tournaments - if you need help getting set up with an idea, talk to me on steam, I'm sure we can come up with something.

kind regards
trot888
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 04:54:09 pm by trot888 »

Offline Tigere

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I don't know native players, this tournament is unfair >:(

Offline AccursedGull

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also how you wanna do the 5sec shooting rule. I imagine that as a nightmare for refs. they have to write some sort of stop in admin chat to make it clear for both teams, while there are also other arenas playing at the same time. pretty sure people will complain during the tournament about wheter it was 5sec or not if pistol makes a kill. and in 5sec you can literally walk into the face of the opponent and shoot so there should be a few pistol kills anyway


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