Author Topic: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?  (Read 93028 times)

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Offline Dekkers

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #345 on: January 21, 2018, 01:04:56 am »
I would say not only surrendering after 4 days but then turning around and systematically murdering hundreds of thousands of your own countrymen on the orders of your conquerors makes you pretty bad at fighting wars.

Surrender after 4 days after one of the largest cities got bombed to shit, fighting a war that could never be won against the most powerful nation at the time, which was our neighbour? Get out of here

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Offline KurassierNixon

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #346 on: January 21, 2018, 01:14:59 am »
I would say not only surrendering after 4 days but then turning around and systematically murdering hundreds of thousands of your own countrymen on the orders of your conquerors makes you pretty bad at fighting wars.

Surrender after 4 days after one of the largest cities got bombed to shit, fighting a war that could never be won against the most powerful nation at the time, which was our neighbour? Get out of here

The resistance put up by the Dutch was pitiful. They should've fought to the death to preserve their nation and protect their land like the Japanese did in Okinawa or Iwo Jima. I don't rank them as the worst at fighting wars because they lost, I put them there because of how easily they folded.

Offline Dekkers

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #347 on: January 21, 2018, 01:28:49 am »
I would say not only surrendering after 4 days but then turning around and systematically murdering hundreds of thousands of your own countrymen on the orders of your conquerors makes you pretty bad at fighting wars.

Surrender after 4 days after one of the largest cities got bombed to shit, fighting a war that could never be won against the most powerful nation at the time, which was our neighbour? Get out of here

The resistance put up by the Dutch was pitiful. They should've fought to the death to preserve their nation and protect their land like the Japanese did in Okinawa or Iwo Jima. I don't rank them as the worst at fighting wars because they lost, I put them there because of how easily they folded.

Yeah the Japanese did a solid job defending their land

Look what they got in the end
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Not to mention the countless of death and Japanese who are still handicapped because of the atomic bombs that hit them over 60 years ago

I bet the Japanese are proud and happy that they fought so hard )))))))))))))))))))))))

Not

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Offline KurassierNixon

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #348 on: January 21, 2018, 01:34:15 am »
I would say not only surrendering after 4 days but then turning around and systematically murdering hundreds of thousands of your own countrymen on the orders of your conquerors makes you pretty bad at fighting wars.

You still have not refuted my main point.

Offline Dekkers

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #349 on: January 21, 2018, 02:17:19 am »
I would say not only surrendering after 4 days but then turning around and systematically murdering hundreds of thousands of your own countrymen on the orders of your conquerors makes you pretty bad at fighting wars.

You still have not refuted my main point.

I tackled the reasoning behind your main point, can't you read?

If you are actually convinced that ''fighting to the death !11one'' is what they should have done in that situation then you're a special snowflake. Around 200.000 Dutch civilians ended up losing their lives during WW2. Take Japan, your own previous example and the number goes up to 2.500.000 / 3.100.000. Funny enough even if you look at the German invasion of the Netherlands, both nations ended up losing around 2000 soldiers (the Dutch like 2300), while the Germans outnumbered the Dutch nearly 3 to 1. The Germans also lost over 225 aircraft
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Netherlands

I am aware that the topic is about fighting wars, but can you truely judge a nation for giving up in that situation? Not giving up in a ''modern war'' can result in losing half your population, so bringing up the defeat during WW2 all the time is a bit lame imo. If you want to bash the Dutch' warring skills then there are plenty of other examples

However, to go back on topic, the Dutch also survived against all odds in the past
https://www.britannica.com/event/Dutch-War

Maurice modernised the Dutch army during the 80 years war making ''the Dutch army the most modern in the Europe of his time.''
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Maurice-stadholder-of-The-Netherlands

and there are many smaller examples of the Dutch doing well during times of war, the Dutch navy was arguably the strongest navy during the early 17th century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_history_of_the_Netherlands

Some battles the Dutch fought with minimal casualties or while (heavily) outnumbered:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Heiligerlee_(1568)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leiden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gibraltar_(1607)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Downs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sound
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Days%27_Battle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_the_Medway

Ofcourse there are plenty of blunders too, but it goes without saying that the ''best'' nations at fighting wars have those too.

In conclusion, saying the Netherlands are arguably the worst at fighting wars, given their history, their geographical position, their population, seems wrong to me. Especially when you concider that 'we' were once concidered the most powerful nation in the world, despite our size.

That is my (bias) opinion

Now stop triggering me pls

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And we were good at fighting Napoleonic Wars!!!
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« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 02:28:47 am by Dekkers »
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Offline KurassierNixon

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #350 on: January 21, 2018, 05:04:30 am »
Spoiler
I would say not only surrendering after 4 days but then turning around and systematically murdering hundreds of thousands of your own countrymen on the orders of your conquerors makes you pretty bad at fighting wars.

You still have not refuted my main point.

I tackled the reasoning behind your main point, can't you read?

If you are actually convinced that ''fighting to the death !11one'' is what they should have done in that situation then you're a special snowflake. Around 200.000 Dutch civilians ended up losing their lives during WW2. Take Japan, your own previous example and the number goes up to 2.500.000 / 3.100.000. Funny enough even if you look at the German invasion of the Netherlands, both nations ended up losing around 2000 soldiers (the Dutch like 2300), while the Germans outnumbered the Dutch nearly 3 to 1. The Germans also lost over 225 aircraft
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Netherlands

I am aware that the topic is about fighting wars, but can you truely judge a nation for giving up in that situation? Not giving up in a ''modern war'' can result in losing half your population, so bringing up the defeat during WW2 all the time is a bit lame imo. If you want to bash the Dutch' warring skills then there are plenty of other examples

However, to go back on topic, the Dutch also survived against all odds in the past
https://www.britannica.com/event/Dutch-War

Maurice modernised the Dutch army during the 80 years war making ''the Dutch army the most modern in the Europe of his time.''
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Maurice-stadholder-of-The-Netherlands

and there are many smaller examples of the Dutch doing well during times of war, the Dutch navy was arguably the strongest navy during the early 17th century
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_history_of_the_Netherlands

Some battles the Dutch fought with minimal casualties or while (heavily) outnumbered:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Heiligerlee_(1568)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leiden
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gibraltar_(1607)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Downs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Sound
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Days%27_Battle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_the_Medway

Ofcourse there are plenty of blunders too, but it goes without saying that the ''best'' nations at fighting wars have those too.

In conclusion, saying the Netherlands are arguably the worst at fighting wars, given their history, their geographical position, their population, seems wrong to me. Especially when you concider that 'we' were once concidered the most powerful nation in the world, despite our size.

That is my (bias) opinion

Now stop triggering me pls

E:

And we were good at fighting Napoleonic Wars!!!
Spoiler

[close]
[close]

Using 500 year old military victories to justify folding quicker than Georgia in 2008 is laughable. Also your 200,000 civilian number includes 120,000+ Jews who, as we have previously noted, were self inflicted casualties. One can even argue that due to this widespread collaboration even the famine was self-inflicted. So in reality the Dutch lost maybe 2,000 men in the grand scheme of things.

Offline Furrnox

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #351 on: January 21, 2018, 06:56:57 am »
The counter-offensive against German paratroopers was also quite succesful, re-taking the airfields and destroying a great deal of enemy planes.  The German paratrooper operation was meant to finish the Netherlands off in a single day and ended up having to be rescued by the German army 4 days later. And even then, the surrender was forced by terrorbombing a city, not because the army was defeated. More then half of the paratroop force was captured and the effects of the losses during the Battle of the Netherlands was felt even at Crete a year later.

I'm not saying the 5-day battle was some sort of heroic resistance against all odds (Cos, you know, we were defeated), but taking into account the strategic situation, calling the entirety of it a military blunder on the Dutch side, rather then an unavoidable defeat, is uncalled for.

At least you lasted more than 6 hours. *hint* *hint*

Offline Duuring

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #352 on: January 21, 2018, 11:10:40 am »
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They should've fought to the death to preserve their nation and protect their land like the Japanese did in Okinawa or Iwo Jima

The same Japanese who uncondititionally surrendered? Or a different kind?

Offline TheBoberton

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #353 on: January 21, 2018, 03:28:02 pm »
I mean, when your enemy can level your cities while suffering zero casualties, fighting to the death to delay them really loses its meaning.

Not that I agree with his bait, but that's really not fair of you.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #354 on: January 21, 2018, 04:58:40 pm »
Irrelevant. Saying we should have fought to the death 'Like the Japanese' implies that they did.

Offline joer5835

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #355 on: January 21, 2018, 05:57:54 pm »
FACT: 90% of Dutch Jews perished in the holocaust.
FACT: Over 10,000 Dutchmen WILLINGLY volunteered for the SS and served in the Nederlandsche SS, 23rd SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division Nederland, SS Volunteer Grenadier Brigade Landstorm Nederland and 4th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Brigade Nederland.
FACT: Over 100,000 Dutchmen WILLINGLY joined the Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging. These 100,000 openly collaborated with the Germans and turned their countrymen over for death in concentration camps.
FACT: The Henneicke Column WILLINGLY captured Jews and turned them over to the Nazis. They captured and were directly responsible for the deaths of 10,000 Dutch Jews who perished in the Holocaust.
FACT: Between 25,000 and 30,000 Dutchmen WILLINGLY volunteered to serve in the Heer.
FACT: The LKP (Nationale Knokploeg), the largest Dutch resistance group, had only a measly 550 members.

BONUS FACT: The survival rate of Dutch Jews at around 10% is substantially lower than Belgium (60% of Jews survived), France (75% of Jews survived) and Denmark (99% of Jews survived).

Never forget the enthusiastic and eager Dutch collaboration with the Nazis which directly resulted in the death of 125,000+ Dutch Jews.

You know, next time you continously yell FACT FACT FACT, at least state your sources.
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Offline KurassierNixon

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #356 on: January 21, 2018, 06:45:27 pm »
The Japanese fought to the death on numerous occasions. Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Tarawa just to name a few. If the Dutch did the same they could have inflicted enough casualties to the Germans to allow a proper Franco-British defense of Belgium.

May I remind you once again the Dutch knowingly and enthusiastically murdered 90% of the Jews in their country. All Dutch alive at this time has some blame for this. Remember a girl named Anne Frank?

Offline Duuring

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #357 on: January 21, 2018, 07:22:53 pm »
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All Dutch alive at this time has some blame for this

Well, up to now I didn't really know if you were trolling but this gave it away. Good effort tho.

Offline KurassierNixon

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #358 on: January 21, 2018, 07:53:18 pm »
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All Dutch alive at this time has some blame for this

Well, up to now I didn't really know if you were trolling but this gave it away. Good effort tho.

The Netherlands had a population of around 8.7 million in 1939. Assuming 100,000+ Dutch fought for the German Reich and another 100,000+ joined the NSB it becomes very clear a large portion of the population was complacent or even complicit during the Holocaust. This 200,000 numbers excludes the tens of thousands of farmers that supplied food to the German troops, thousands of Dutch women who served as nurses, tens of thousands of Dutch bureaucrats working in some capacity for the Reichskommissariat Niederlande, and tens of thousands of firefighters and police officers that were paid by the Reich.

A conservative estimate would place the amount of Dutch aiding the reich, being paid by the reich, working for a company controlled by the reich or fighting directly for the reich at upwards of 500,000. Statistically speaking the Dutchmen posting here most likely have a number of Nazi collaborators or SS soldiers in their family tree. Which is why my point that all Dutch alive in 1939 were in some shape or form responsible for the murder of +90% of Dutch Jews including Anne Frank stands valid. Just as all Germans alive during 1939 were responsible, the Dutch must stand alongside them and rightfully acknowledge the stain of mass, systematic murder that will forever haunt this period in Dutch history.

TL;DR - Dutch partly responsible for holocaust, which makes them pretty bad at fighting wars.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #359 on: January 21, 2018, 07:57:13 pm »
My family lived in the East Indies. #Checkmate.