Poll

Are the "Oldest Pyramids of the world" that were found in Crimea, the real reason for the War?

Yes! Putin only took Crimea because of the alien pyramids.
13 (61.9%)
Yes! I don't believe that the pyramids were made by aliens, but I do believe that Russia took Crimea because of the incredible cultural treasures hidden inside them.
8 (38.1%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 367194 times)

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Offline Archduke Sven

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4095 on: March 06, 2015, 06:57:06 am »
Quote
Isn't that the statue in Wołgograd?
It's The Motherland Calls right outside Stalingrad. Powerful symbol of resistance.

symbol of communist repression

the bitch looks like a 4/10 would not bang


told that bih don't @ me

Offline Desert Thunda

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4096 on: March 06, 2015, 08:59:28 am »
Nice profile pic dude.  and pft.

exactly lmao. i hope to dear god no one believes that these idiots in donbass are fighting for their freedom and right to self determination rofl.

lmao roflcopter

Offline MaxLam

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4097 on: March 06, 2015, 12:08:52 pm »
Volgograd = Stalingrad.

Quote from: Someone
So uh, does anyone still view the separatist movement as self determination?
Are you a nazi too?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 12:10:55 pm by MaxLam »

Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4098 on: March 06, 2015, 12:25:19 pm »
Shit, for some reason I completely glossed over it because of his spelling. Fuckin Poles.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4099 on: March 06, 2015, 12:30:56 pm »
They don't have a claim to self-determination. Only states and oversees colonies have a claim to that. International law is weird and not very nice anyway.

Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4100 on: March 06, 2015, 12:37:33 pm »
Anyone can have a claim to self determination, as long as they have the force to back it up.

Offline Augy

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4101 on: March 06, 2015, 12:41:41 pm »
Yeah imperialism is self-determination alright lmao

“Ego is a structure that is erected by a neurotic individual who is a member of a neurotic culture against the facts of the matter. And culture, which we put on like an overcoat, is the collectivized consensus about what sort of neurotic behaviors are acceptable.” -Terence McKenna

Offline Duuring

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4102 on: March 06, 2015, 01:13:11 pm »
Anyone can have a claim to self determination, as long as they have the force to back it up.

Not really. The right to self-determination isn't a set of clear rules. You can pretty much bend it either way. It doesn't even include legitimacy.

Seriously, that video only shows how crazy the Russians currently are. They need to suffer a serious defeat, just like in Afghanistan.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 01:16:32 pm by Duuring »

Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4103 on: March 06, 2015, 01:34:17 pm »
Explain why a group of people who have the power and the material to exercise their will to self determination should not be supported in their goals.

Not even talking about Ukraine here because I don't believe this war is truly about self determination.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4104 on: March 06, 2015, 01:42:43 pm »
Because 'self-determination' doesn't say what is a state, what is not, or what self-determination really means; independence, autonomy, or just taking part in the government. Let's not forget that 'self-determination' didn't exist until a century ago. It's not some sort of nature law, it's a creation. States loving holding claims to 'international law' because it's international law that dictates souvereignity. Yet the irony of it is that the argument was meant to protect small countries from big countries, and didn't really take into account the idea that dictators and other 'bad' regimes would exercise the right to souvereignity to terrorize their people.

All in all, international law is shite and the fact we're still using it is because some people benefit from it. Take away international law and we'll go right back into the post-WW1 situation.

Offline Wolff

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4105 on: March 06, 2015, 02:13:25 pm »
we'll go right back into the post-WW1 situation.

Freikorps Duuring voran!

Offline Duuring

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4106 on: March 06, 2015, 02:40:04 pm »
Ja bitte.

Offline MaxLam

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4107 on: March 06, 2015, 04:56:50 pm »
Quote
Because 'self-determination' doesn't say what is a state, what is not, or what self-determination really means; independence, autonomy, or just taking part in the government. Let's not forget that 'self-determination' didn't exist until a century ago. It's not some sort of nature law, it's a creation. States loving holding claims to 'international law' because it's international law that dictates souvereignity. Yet the irony of it is that the argument was meant to protect small countries from big countries, and didn't really take into account the idea that dictators and other 'bad' regimes would exercise the right to souvereignity to terrorize their people.

All in all, international law is shite and the fact we're still using it is because some people benefit from it. Take away international law and we'll go right back into the post-WW1 situation.
You confuse the act of determination itself and the right to self-determination. Having a right to self-determination only means that you can decide your own fate. Nothing more. This right is a derivative of the so-called "natural rights" (I hope you don't actually believe that those rights are natural and not a construction). Indeed, there is no complete freedom if you are oppressed in your national identity.
In practice, this right means that you are allowed to vote and decide, without pressure from the outside. In the Ukrainian situation for example, Crimea had obviously a right to self-determination considering that this region was only gifted to Ukraine a few decades ago when it was still part of the Soviet Union. Since the Soviet Union has disappeared, and since the overwhelming majority of the inhabitants don't speak Ukrainian, they had a right to self-determination. And nobody can challenge that.

This is also true for some regions of what is called Ukraine in which the Ukrainian language is a clear minority. Those population had the right to self-determine themselves, and had much reasons to break with the rest of Ukraine after the crackdown on Russian language and the violent overthrow of Yanu who obtained most of his support in the Eastern regions. Yet the Kievan government considered that this was its territory and denied the right of those populations to self-determination.

If the inhabitants of those regions had had the possibility to self-determine themselves before the war, it's doubtful that they would have chosen independance. They would have asked for more autonomy probably and Ukraine would have remained united. But now considering the amount of destruction and death, I don't think that they would accept anything like that. That's why the right of self-determination is especially important. It's the best way to have people live altogether in peace. Denying this right implies oppression, and oppression often leads to war and separation.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 05:05:11 pm by MaxLam »

Offline Duuring

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4108 on: March 06, 2015, 06:41:59 pm »
The crackdown on the Russian language? You do realize 1/3 of, for example, the Kyiv-ians speak Russian at home? I heard more Russian then Ukrainian when I visited it.

Areas don't have right to self-determination and thus to sovereignty. Only states have. It's very easy to challenge the Crimean right to self-determination: It's not a state nor an overseas colony.

Offline MaxLam

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #4109 on: March 06, 2015, 07:19:41 pm »
The point of the right of self-determination is to give the possibility to a population to create its own independant state, so you don't need a state to have a right to self-determination. For example, the inhabitants of New Caledonia don't have a state, they are part of France. However, since we are not fascists and abandoned colonialism a long time ago, we recognize their right to self-determination and they will have the possibility to secede and become an independant country with its own state.

Yes I realize that a lot of inhabitants of Ukraine speak Russian. As I said, in some regions, those who use Ukrainian at home are a minority. Yet after the overthrow of Yanu, some actions were taken against Russian language, which contributed to the crisis.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 07:21:33 pm by MaxLam »