Flying Squirrel Entertainment

Mount & Blade Warband: Napoleonic Wars => Community => Topic started by: Audiate on July 03, 2014, 06:47:48 am

Title: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Audiate on July 03, 2014, 06:47:48 am
It's come to my attention over the past few months that "Fire on Charge" has become a serious taboo just about everywhere in the North American community. In Europe, FoC would almost never be an issue due to generally larger numbers being that there are simply more people in Europe than there are in North America, and there are more Europeans playing NW than there are North Americans. When European lines would charge and shoot as they charged, defending lines (lines being charged) would often lose a considerable amount of players immediately before melee, but there would still be a considerable number of men left alive to continue the battle in melee. I'll reference an old video from the summer of 2012 of a linebattle between the 91st and 33rd as an example of this:

Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O7SoawWLoA
[close]

However, when it comes to North America, it seems that being shot right before melee is considerably less tolerated. North Americans do not like being killed without the opportunity to melee. I guess we might as well not shoot at all, right? That said, there will always be times where people will get shot before melee and they'll just have to live with it. They already do. So why is being shot a little bit prior to melee such a problem?

My personal stance on this issue is this: firing on the charge should be allowed simply because I don't see reasons why it shouldn't, and that said, it also adds some additional spice in engagements. I can understand if the number of rankers per line would influence whether or not two regiments would want to allow fire on the charge during 1v1s, and I can also understand why reloading on a charge is undesirable. However, I don't see why that means it should be taken out of gameplay entirely.

On an added note, I also think that disallowing firing on charges backs up the North American tendency of having smaller regiments--everyone wants a piece at the big-seat and it leads to splits, disbands, failed merges, and so on. It's an indirectly related issue, but the lack of firing in charge on melee makes smaller regiments more "considerable" on the battlefield, when really, it means a lot less average stability in the North American regiments and thus, eventually, a lack of interested and dedicated players in regiments due to a lot of them leaving the game after their previous regiment disbands. However, that is a discussion for another day.

Feel free to discuss either side of this, it's clearly only going to reach philosophical debate level, and not community reform level.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Butts on July 03, 2014, 06:50:46 am
I like FoC but I feel like regiments are too small for it, as in, when you have a giant regiment like the 29th, doing a massive FoC against a small regiment, it just seems unfair. It really depends on the size in my opinon.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Grimsight on July 03, 2014, 06:56:21 am
In general I feel like FoC is just an easy way out when a leader gets their line in a bad spot. You still get to use your shots so it doesn't matter what ditch you've led you and your men into, you still get to shoot the enemy to shit. Its just annoying
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Newkirk on July 03, 2014, 07:00:48 am
In general I feel like FoC is just an easy way out when a leader gets their line in a bad spot. You still get to use your shots so it doesn't matter what ditch you've led you and your men into, you still get to shoot the enemy to shit. Its just annoying
+1

The only time I see it as acceptable is when I was in the 77y a couple of years ago, we would charge and fire a volley on the charge. Without lining up, everyone just fires at the same time before we hit the enemy with bayonets. I can deal with that as it is organized and much less random, other than that, no. It's not a tactic I support.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Malakith on July 03, 2014, 12:58:18 pm
Interesting you reference us there Newkirk as all events we have ever hosted refuse to allow Fire in the charge.

If done "properly" it wouldn't be an issue, but half the time it isn't. You have regiments "Charging" from half the map away and it just turns the fight into basically a bunch of skirmishers, especially if some go into melee and some stand to reload.
For large events it just ends up with needing a permanent admin sat in spectator to monitor the thing and sort out arguments which lets face it isn't something people want to do, they came to play a game not watch it.

For 1v1's I can see why it might be favored but for large multi-class events it is just a way to make line infantry more "flexible" to placate the grumbling melee players who don't feel so special with a cannonball in their face, cavalry taunting them with hit and run or a skirmisher taking pot shots at them.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Newkirk on July 03, 2014, 05:31:09 pm
It was right at two years ago back in MM Malakith, I don't remember who hosted the event or anything, just remember that being a thing.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Rutger Müller on July 03, 2014, 05:38:17 pm
I think that it is a bit dumb running around in circles for 5 minutes
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: FrithBiscuit on July 03, 2014, 05:39:31 pm
It's FiC, not FoC.

Fire out of Charge would imply that you're firing when in a line.  :-*

Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Audiate on July 03, 2014, 05:44:06 pm
Fair point given, Malakith. We can't upset those special snowflakes that get intimidated by a gaming simulation of a series of terrible wars. The 71st's event, which the 91st attends and is familiar with, allows fire in charge in a way that heavy administration isn't necessary, but it being a line-only event does help. I have, several times in the past, administrated or co-administrated events by staying in spectator and carefully watching things from above. The 8pp Official Linebattle was a success, I'd say, with firing on the charge allowed through volleys and with reloading in charge not allowed, and the only issue with the whole event was server lag.

I think that it is a bit dumb running around in circles for 5 minutes

Quite true, and I think with the ability to successfully fire on the charge would motivate some regiments to engage quicker given the circumstances that they would also have to deal with enemy cavalry, skirmishers, and/or artillery.

It's FiC, not FoC.

Fire out of Charge would imply that you're firing when in a line.  :-*

Fire on charge*
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Becker- on July 03, 2014, 05:51:08 pm
Spotters are quitters is how I look at it.


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Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Saga on July 03, 2014, 06:20:33 pm
I consider firing in a charge another factor to consider when facing a line. If anything it makes the leader think more thus resulting in a much more stressed match but more fun in general.

It also allows us to live through this moment. Especially when you kill a well known melee player
Spoiler
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc[/youtube]
[close]
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: lindblom on July 03, 2014, 10:18:27 pm
Well, I guess it's always been a question of personal skill and what you prefer. I do not want to take everyone over the same edge so to speak, but an majority of those who would pointblank you in an lb does it because their melee are their weaker side. It's ofc understandable from their perspective but I sadly think it really destroys the melee part of a charge. Let's face it, without melee, this game would not be very fun ^^
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: FrithBiscuit on July 04, 2014, 02:32:52 pm
It's FiC, not FoC.

Fire out of Charge would imply that you're firing when in a line.  :-*

Fire on charge*

How would fire on charge make sense? Fire in charge is betterm09
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Saga on July 04, 2014, 06:32:06 pm
#FireInCharge
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Walko on July 04, 2014, 07:50:23 pm
Fire in charge is shit.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Archduke Sven on July 04, 2014, 08:31:43 pm
It's FIC not FOC you disgusting plebians.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: KillerMongoose on July 04, 2014, 08:59:33 pm
It's up to the organizers of the event. The only time I've ever been upset about a regiment firing while charging is when the rules clearly state that it is not allowed. If Firing on the charge is allowed then I don't mind, even if it can be annoying. Having commanded line and skirmisher units before I will say that it can affect your regiment's performance in melee combat if you let them hang back and shoot or if they try to reload, or take too long to shoot, etc. It can turn a well organized and swift charge into a spread out mess. I've had linebattles where an enemy regiment fired on every charge but it didn't matter because of 3 factors: 1) They sucked at shooting 2) They were too spread out to help each other in melee, and 3) Guys who took too long to shoot were left vulnerable and bayoneted to death.

My verdict:

If it isn't against that event's rules, then fire while charging - at your own risk.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Crescent Glow on July 05, 2014, 02:04:47 am
It's FIC not FOC you disgusting plebians.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Dom_ on July 05, 2014, 02:11:14 am
It's FIC not FOC you disgusting plebians.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: ClearlyInvsible on July 05, 2014, 04:34:09 am
Never understood the problem with FiC, it makes sense to shoot your gun if you can. I liked how the the 71st allow FiC in their event, it's better than dicking about for 15 minutes playing follow the leader. This is coming from me, who spends most of his time skirmishing, but come on.

Seriously, can someone give me a legitimate reason why FiC is such a plague?
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Audiate on July 05, 2014, 04:36:13 am
The irony is that 71st's event is nothing but ring around the rosie.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: ClearlyInvsible on July 05, 2014, 04:49:46 am
The irony is that 71st's event is nothing but ring around the rosie.

Mmhm.

God damn it I miss MM events. Actual tactics and shit.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Audiate on July 05, 2014, 05:10:54 am
Very much so. Lines seemed to work together, rather than one line moving, another following, and another two following them, and so forth. It was working together forwards and back, not shifting around in circles.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Crescent Glow on July 05, 2014, 05:11:27 pm
I remember there were always a bunch pubs in mm events.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: MrTiki on July 05, 2014, 05:15:27 pm
Very much so. Lines seemed to work together, rather than one line moving, another following, and another two following them, and so forth. It was working together forwards and back, not shifting around in circles.
Indeed. Nothing really has changed between now and then, other than a bunch of 12 year olds in charge of skirmishers. Back in MM the skirmishers at least fought in melee. Now they run across the whole fucking map, taking pot shots and dragging out the maps to stupidly long lengths. No one wants to die early because you waste half your life waiting in spec in the mean time.

Edit: Also, it's fire in the charge. On makes no sense grammatically, not that that's stopped you plebs before.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Millander on July 05, 2014, 05:55:45 pm
I simply dont like it because it to me negates so much of the tactical elements of linebattles. When you cannot shoot when out of formation it requires units to pay far closer attention to their positioning and timing. Firing ont he charge I have always viewed as a get out of jail free card when an enemy formation has you in a tight position. In short I feel it kills allot of the tactical element of linebattles.

In the end there is no "better way". People will have different ideas on whether it should be implemented in their events depending on their mindset of tactics or gameplay. Luckily we have a large and diverse enough community which allows these groups to participate in the events they want to be in.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Alpharion on July 05, 2014, 05:57:11 pm
Yeah, The one big issue I have with it is that my line can be forming up and the enemy line just breaks and fires on us. It ruins the need for lines and it just devolves into a big melee from what I've seen, Also quite irritating when I'm the one being shot whilst in melee.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: AlekoTheGreek on July 05, 2014, 07:02:50 pm
FiC allowed or FiC not allowed is pretty much the same for me
(as long as there are no regiments firing in charge when it is not allowed *cough-cough* :D )
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: OTGmorley on July 05, 2014, 07:11:30 pm
I simply dont like it because it to me negates so much of the tactical elements of linebattles. When you cannot shoot when out of formation it requires units to pay far closer attention to their positioning and timing. Firing ont he charge I have always viewed as a get out of jail free card when an enemy formation has you in a tight position. In short I feel it kills allot of the tactical element of linebattles.

In the end there is no "better way". People will have different ideas on whether it should be implemented in their events depending on their mindset of tactics or gameplay. Luckily we have a large and diverse enough community which allows these groups to participate in the events they want to be in.

+1
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Who- on July 05, 2014, 10:33:27 pm
In general I feel like FoC is just an easy way out when a leader gets their line in a bad spot. You still get to use your shots so it doesn't matter what ditch you've led you and your men into, you still get to shoot the enemy to shit. Its just annoying
It would be perfect for you then.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Keita on July 06, 2014, 02:15:56 am
Fire in charge is shit.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Crescent Glow on July 06, 2014, 04:53:17 am

Fire in charge is shit.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Evanovic on July 06, 2014, 07:47:26 am
FiC leads to a more even melee and more people surviving to melee, so anyone who prefers melee to camping skills as a game-decider would opt for FiC.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: KillerMongoose on July 06, 2014, 02:12:16 pm
Uhh shooting leads to more melee? Never heard that before.

Personally I love shooting, I think it's rewarding and fun, but melee can also be fun and is often necessary. That said, I don't see how shooting while charging makes melee more fub or common. If you want to melee without camping or whatever it is you were describing then just charge in and melee. Pretty much the whole NA community does it and it makes melee pretty clean and there's less arguing about fol
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Heretic on July 07, 2014, 10:18:08 pm
It's FIC not FOC you disgusting plebians.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Stunned Lime on July 08, 2014, 12:06:07 am
Fire in charge is shit.
As grimsight stated before, fire and charge is usually an easy way out of a mistake or a situation. Linebattles where fire in charge is not allowed, are always more skilled base in all aspects such as melee, shooting and especially leadership.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Hugonaut on July 08, 2014, 07:09:17 am
It changes line battles by 69%. (83% of statistics are made up on the spot)

For me FoC, FiC, FoL, What the hell? can we just standardize this? Fire in charge is my vote.

But anyways.  FiC makes a damn easy and faster LB. The second you're line feels threatened by anything, or the enemy team has a tactical advantage, you can easily point blank and melee your way out of it. In the 71st LB the 29th noticed insta panic in almost everyone. And it's right to panic in some FiC situations. But FiC really opens up a commanders ability to be tactically retarded, yet look good. It's way too easy to attack, and it makes it way too easy to get out of a shitty situation. What I really enjoy is watching other regiments abuse the hell out of it. I really get a kick out of it. Some regiments, before anything exciting happens, will do it because of lack of anything better to do. IMO they're complete noobs.

Also it really allows the commander to be really lax. Salvation is only a command away. In light of melee, charging, and melee is way more common in FiC linebattles. When a enemy commander says: "Hey *insert XO* What do I do?"-*Insert CO* The next viable action is charge. With no regards to anything, and a athigh success rate. Even if your line is completely demolished, and you're a complete idiot. You don't look that bad. Because you took a damn good chunk of them with you via led. So you get these guys who panic and don't know what to do who charge. And because you can't just stand there and take a massive volley from a spread out line at 4ft. (Well you can, but you can't walk away.) You must counter charge. When line A feels threatened they will charge. Because They're shit. Then line B, Having no other sane alternative, will then counter charge. And what ensues is point blanking and seconds later, melee. Resulting in A LOT of death regardless of who's who.

So IMO. It's fun, it adds some depth...That's not the right way to say that.....Allows shitty commanders to make shitty commands that result in a not so shitty outcome. But it's fun. It is. It's a lot more action packed and it is indeed fun to point blank melee champs. And it's fun to watch a regiment charge around the map for five mins getting shot at by the 29th. So yeah. It's different. You just have to know how to use it to your advantage. And one more thing. When you have that option open, you're going to use it. I do. Not a lot. But it happens.

I'll leave you with a 29th video that's all FiC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNNBY39kM1c
-Hugo
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Evanovic on July 08, 2014, 10:06:24 am
Uhh shooting leads to more melee? Never heard that before.

Personally I love shooting, I think it's rewarding and fun, but melee can also be fun and is often necessary. That said, I don't see how shooting while charging makes melee more fub or common. If you want to melee without camping or whatever it is you were describing then just charge in and melee. Pretty much the whole NA community does it and it makes melee pretty clean and there's less arguing about fol

It's harder to hit a target during a charge than it is when it's in a stationary line, due to strafing and the risk associated with holding your shot right up until bayonets are in your face (most will fire their shot off early and miss). More shots will miss in a single, close-ranged charge than in a close-ranged fire-fight with FiC prohibited. Getting occasionally pointblanked, or occasionally pointblanking during a FiC charge gives the illusion that getting hits is easier than with no FiC simply because it's a very satisfying or annoying (depends on who's on the receiving end) way of getting a shooting kill. In reality it's a minor price to pay for a larger and more balanced melee, with the two lines being forced to break and melee at close distances, whereas in No-FiC you'd have the 2 lines shooting eachother to bits in a stalemate at a this distance, or  have 1 line outshooting the other and the other being forced into a desperate unbalanced melee. A bit more consicely: with No FiC, balanced melee only occurs when it's mutually decided, but with FiC, one regiment can force another into balanced melee regardless.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: Munro on July 18, 2014, 05:46:13 pm
Uhh shooting leads to more melee? Never heard that before.

Personally I love shooting, I think it's rewarding and fun, but melee can also be fun and is often necessary. That said, I don't see how shooting while charging makes melee more fub or common. If you want to melee without camping or whatever it is you were describing then just charge in and melee. Pretty much the whole NA community does it and it makes melee pretty clean and there's less arguing about fol

It's harder to hit a target during a charge than it is when it's in a stationary line, due to strafing and the risk associated with holding your shot right up until bayonets are in your face (most will fire their shot off early and miss). More shots will miss in a single, close-ranged charge than in a close-ranged fire-fight with FiC prohibited. Getting occasionally pointblanked, or occasionally pointblanking during a FiC charge gives the illusion that getting hits is easier than with no FiC simply because it's a very satisfying or annoying (depends on who's on the receiving end) way of getting a shooting kill. In reality it's a minor price to pay for a larger and more balanced melee, with the two lines being forced to break and melee at close distances, whereas in No-FiC you'd have the 2 lines shooting eachother to bits in a stalemate at a this distance, or  have 1 line outshooting the other and the other being forced into a desperate unbalanced melee. A bit more consicely: with No FiC, balanced melee only occurs when it's mutually decided, but with FiC, one regiment can force another into balanced melee regardless.

Interesting, but all of this has to be in regard to numbers. If you are a regiment with more than 20 or so attendees, a FiC would hold a severe advantage over a line <20 not FiCing. It might be worth while to test or theorize the allowance of such a rule if the line is less than a certain number, say 20, so that they may utilize the advantages of FiC without it becoming a easymode line wrecker. I mean, placing it into scenario:

If a line of 40 charges at a line of 20, and they FiC, there is a good chance that 1/4 to 1/2 of the defending line would be wiped out from the tactic, which would be a fight ender. Switch it, and the numbers would essentially be approximately even, not even considering the idea of the defending line firing a more accurate, more lethal volley at the charging group.

If people have an issue with that "imbalanced privilege", it would be a certain penalty for larger lines if there is a significant difference in line numbers within the LB. Which I think would be fairly balanced based on the accuracy system (There tends to be an exponential increase in lethality of a line fire as number of people go up, this would extend to FiC as well, the more people that fire means the more chance that one of the bullets will hit something, so 10 people have 10 chances, 20 people have 20 chances, and 40 have 40, obviously).

All in all, it would be a decent way to make CQC a little more even, although this may only apply to this type of scenario, a 20 v 20 would be more aggravating, but it would be a decent display of either line's ability to accurately shoot while charging, which could in fact balance the fight between the two under that regard (but this opinion is based on a neutral standpoint for all skill levels, I am all for melee only since getting shot right before a melee is incredibly frustrating for me).
Just an idea.
Title: Re: A word on fire on the charge
Post by: KillerMongoose on July 19, 2014, 12:45:40 am
I think the best solution is to not allow it. In events where it's allowed there is always confusing and debate over whether a regiment fired while charging or fired out of line. If it is not allowed and a regiment fired while charging or out of line then there's no debate whether they broke the rules or not because the rules are simple and clear. Banning it makes for less arguing, less rule breaking because people won't ha e the excuse of "Oh it was fic not fol" and all around more fun.