Author Topic: Horses  (Read 14850 times)

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Offline KillerMongoose

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Horses
« on: November 19, 2012, 03:21:01 pm »
Having rode horses a lot and worked with them before I think the game sorely underestimates just how powerful and fast these creatures are. Compared to real horses the horses in game might as well have weights tied to their legs. There's nothing more stirring than watching horses charge at full gallop, bearing cavalrymen waving sabers above their heads. It's rather less so when the horses move at something more akin to a rapid canter :/

Offline Hekko

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Re: Horses
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 09:56:29 pm »
Horses are also unaffected by fatigue, and in RL cavalry charges were conducted at a slower pace in order to maintain cohesion, so it's authentic.

Offline KillerMongoose

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Re: Horses
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2012, 02:06:57 am »
That is until the last stretch when sabers were drawn and horses spurred. What if there was a system of sprinting and it was balanced by a system of fatigue similar to that of Arma 2?

Offline KillerMongoose

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Re: Horses
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 03:10:20 pm »
One more thing, yes horses are unaffected by fatigue but then again... so are all humans in game. You can run for 10 minutes straight and swing swing swing your sword sword (Tobuscus reference) or stab your bayonet as if you just had a full night's sleep and take no penalty.

Offline Hekko

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Re: Horses
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 11:31:51 pm »
Before we get all technical etc:

Cavalry, in history, was overpowered in the kind of situation depicted by NW, by buffing it to the historical level it would be crazy overpowered and break the game.

Cavalry does not have the historical "balancing" of a very high cost, accordingly it has to have a cost associated with it's abilities rather than the price, as is the case ingame.

And regarding humans lacking fatigue, the human running ingame, is not really someone going at full sprint which is what you are suggesting for horses. FURTHERMORE, as I said historical cavalry charges were conducted at speeds alot lower than the max speed of the horses involved in order to maintain cohesion in the cavalry unit.

Offline Desparin

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Re: Horses
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2012, 10:36:55 am »
Before we get all technical etc:

Cavalry, in history, was overpowered in the kind of situation depicted by NW, by buffing it to the historical level it would be crazy overpowered and break the game.

Cavalry does not have the historical "balancing" of a very high cost, accordingly it has to have a cost associated with it's abilities rather than the price, as is the case ingame.

And regarding humans lacking fatigue, the human running ingame, is not really someone going at full sprint which is what you are suggesting for horses. FURTHERMORE, as I said historical cavalry charges were conducted at speeds alot lower than the max speed of the horses involved in order to maintain cohesion in the cavalry unit.

I shall discreetly interpose myself into this discussion. Respectfully, you're both right in different areas. KillerMongoose is right in respect to the fact that cavalry did charge at (almost) maximum speed, but that was only when they were close enough to enemy formations to cause maximum impact. Hekko -  cavalry did indeed maintain their advances at a steady pace to maintain unit cohesion, but when it came to charging, the formation had to be spread out enough so as not to foul the charge if any men/horses were killed.

Also depends highly on what weapons/armour the cavalry were using and who they were fighting - e.g. Infantry formed up in line were much more susceptible to a full-on charge by serried ranks of cavalry, but if said infantry formed square, a head-on rush was a big no no. Also affected by the quality and training of the troops involved. There are so many variables - in real life and in NW that it's a bit difficult to map historical accuracy in its entirety with concerns to cavalry onto what is only, at the end of the day, a computer game.

Offline Pinball Wizard

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Re: Horses
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2012, 09:17:07 pm »
Another thing with cavalry is, I feel like I'm going to have the literally smash an infantry's ass to the ground and slash him on his way down as a hussar, because their sabres are too short. I was thinking on maybe increasing their sabre's length, especially how strong the bayonet is: basically preventing cavalry from directly going against them.

Offline Menelaos

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Re: Horses
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2012, 10:48:30 pm »
Cavalry were given length last patch, they now can outrange infantry. I think that's just your cavalry type your playing.

Offline Tali

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Re: Horses
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2012, 11:11:48 pm »
Cavalry were given length last patch, they now can outrange infantry. I think that's just your cavalry type your playing.

If You're playing as a lancer, yes.

Offline Cherry

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Re: Horses
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2012, 11:36:32 pm »
I use to own a horse by the name of cinnamon, He was the best horse ever and my one and only companion. Sadly on the 14 of November 2011 in the middle of a bloody battle for some god forsaken town. He got hit. *Boom* A musket ball went through his lower leg and ripped through out the the other side, I felt it as if it had been me that was hit. He Fell to the group slamming me on the floor, As i got up slightly dazed from the fall, i looked over at cinnamon, Blood everywhere but he didn't cry out he didn't struggle he just looked at me as if to tell me that it was his time. I rushed to his side ripping the lower part of my sleeve off and trying to stop the bleeding. It was useless there was nothing i could do except hold him and feel the warmth escape him, As he began to get cold i looked into his eyes as they slowly closed......

 
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Offline Pinball Wizard

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Re: Horses
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2012, 11:47:06 pm »
Cavalry were given length last patch, they now can outrange infantry. I think that's just your cavalry type your playing.
As hussar no. One does not go against infantry head on as much, because bayonets got more length and reach then you, to the point where they can get you on the retreat, obviously, if the person is better then you.

Offline Hekko

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Re: Horses
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 01:31:33 pm »
Before we get all technical etc:

Cavalry, in history, was overpowered in the kind of situation depicted by NW, by buffing it to the historical level it would be crazy overpowered and break the game.

Cavalry does not have the historical "balancing" of a very high cost, accordingly it has to have a cost associated with it's abilities rather than the price, as is the case ingame.

And regarding humans lacking fatigue, the human running ingame, is not really someone going at full sprint which is what you are suggesting for horses. FURTHERMORE, as I said historical cavalry charges were conducted at speeds alot lower than the max speed of the horses involved in order to maintain cohesion in the cavalry unit.

I shall discreetly interpose myself into this discussion. Respectfully, you're both right in different areas. KillerMongoose is right in respect to the fact that cavalry did charge at (almost) maximum speed, but that was only when they were close enough to enemy formations to cause maximum impact. Hekko -  cavalry did indeed maintain their advances at a steady pace to maintain unit cohesion, but when it came to charging, the formation had to be spread out enough so as not to foul the charge if any men/horses were killed.

Also depends highly on what weapons/armour the cavalry were using and who they were fighting - e.g. Infantry formed up in line were much more susceptible to a full-on charge by serried ranks of cavalry, but if said infantry formed square, a head-on rush was a big no no. Also affected by the quality and training of the troops involved. There are so many variables - in real life and in NW that it's a bit difficult to map historical accuracy in its entirety with concerns to cavalry onto what is only, at the end of the day, a computer game.

I don't entirely buy this for several reasons. First of all from what I have read cavalry charges were done at a trot/walk, I won't argue about the very last seconds before impact though, but one of the reasons why cavalry kept reserves close-by was to have troops that still had their cohesion, so ruinning that by running at a gallop except for the last seconds before impact would seem very counterproductive. Spreading put on purpose is something I am sceptical about as well, because the only account of someone using it that I have read is Saxon hussars and cuirassiers against lancers, and only those two units because they had the skill and/or armour to keep them safe in that situation. Hell before the napoleonic war the winged hussar modus operandi was to start spread out to avoid artillery and small arms fire, and to tighten the formation the closer they got.

Furthermore, I don't buy the line vs square argument your selling in it's current format because you seem to be asigning magical powers to the formation in the form of a stats boost, which in real life won't happen. The two reasons I have sort of gathered and accepted as the real reasons to form a square is the lack of flanks and morale for shaky troops, so in the case of a headon charge with steady troops I cannot see any difference between a line and a square, and the fact is squares were alot rarer before the french revolution and conscription.

Another thing with cavalry is, I feel like I'm going to have the literally smash an infantry's ass to the ground and slash him on his way down as a hussar, because their sabres are too short. I was thinking on maybe increasing their sabre's length, especially how strong the bayonet is: basically preventing cavalry from directly going against them.

People seem to have some perverse need to fit hussars into some sort of battle cavalry role when they infact were not battle cavalry. The lenght of the light cav sabre is fine, on foot it has the same reach as a bayonet roughly. Furthermore, if you are hellbent on playing cav aginst prepared infantry (which is stupid, as it should be from an authenticity point of view) you should play as a lancer or as heavy cavalry.

Cavalry got buffed, quite alot last patch, it didn't really need it, but it's fine the way it is now as well.

Offline Desparin

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Re: Horses
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 02:03:59 pm »
Before we get all technical etc:

Cavalry, in history, was overpowered in the kind of situation depicted by NW, by buffing it to the historical level it would be crazy overpowered and break the game.

Cavalry does not have the historical "balancing" of a very high cost, accordingly it has to have a cost associated with it's abilities rather than the price, as is the case ingame.

And regarding humans lacking fatigue, the human running ingame, is not really someone going at full sprint which is what you are suggesting for horses. FURTHERMORE, as I said historical cavalry charges were conducted at speeds alot lower than the max speed of the horses involved in order to maintain cohesion in the cavalry unit.

I shall discreetly interpose myself into this discussion. Respectfully, you're both right in different areas. KillerMongoose is right in respect to the fact that cavalry did charge at (almost) maximum speed, but that was only when they were close enough to enemy formations to cause maximum impact. Hekko -  cavalry did indeed maintain their advances at a steady pace to maintain unit cohesion, but when it came to charging, the formation had to be spread out enough so as not to foul the charge if any men/horses were killed.

Also depends highly on what weapons/armour the cavalry were using and who they were fighting - e.g. Infantry formed up in line were much more susceptible to a full-on charge by serried ranks of cavalry, but if said infantry formed square, a head-on rush was a big no no. Also affected by the quality and training of the troops involved. There are so many variables - in real life and in NW that it's a bit difficult to map historical accuracy in its entirety with concerns to cavalry onto what is only, at the end of the day, a computer game.

I don't entirely buy this for several reasons. First of all from what I have read cavalry charges were done at a trot/walk, I won't argue about the very last seconds before impact though, but one of the reasons why cavalry kept reserves close-by was to have troops that still had their cohesion, so ruinning that by running at a gallop except for the last seconds before impact would seem very counterproductive. Spreading put on purpose is something I am sceptical about as well, because the only account of someone using it that I have read is Saxon hussars and cuirassiers against lancers, and only those two units because they had the skill and/or armour to keep them safe in that situation. Hell before the napoleonic war the winged hussar modus operandi was to start spread out to avoid artillery and small arms fire, and to tighten the formation the closer they got.

Furthermore, I don't buy the line vs square argument your selling in it's current format because you seem to be asigning magical powers to the formation in the form of a stats boost, which in real life won't happen. The two reasons I have sort of gathered and accepted as the real reasons to form a square is the lack of flanks and morale for shaky troops, so in the case of a headon charge with steady troops I cannot see any difference between a line and a square, and the fact is squares were alot rarer before the french revolution and conscription.

Another thing with cavalry is, I feel like I'm going to have the literally smash an infantry's ass to the ground and slash him on his way down as a hussar, because their sabres are too short. I was thinking on maybe increasing their sabre's length, especially how strong the bayonet is: basically preventing cavalry from directly going against them.

People seem to have some perverse need to fit hussars into some sort of battle cavalry role when they infact were not battle cavalry. The lenght of the light cav sabre is fine, on foot it has the same reach as a bayonet roughly. Furthermore, if you are hellbent on playing cav aginst prepared infantry (which is stupid, as it should be from an authenticity point of view) you should play as a lancer or as heavy cavalry.

Cavalry got buffed, quite alot last patch, it didn't really need it, but it's fine the way it is now as well.

A very good reason for forming square when faced with cavalry is that, as you pointed out, it secures the flanks and covers morale. This also awards the infantry with a way to cover all directions, provides officers and the colour party with greater protection. Furthermore, horses are generally adverse to charging into a densely packed formation of men - let alone men with bayonets facing outwards.

I recommend reading about Napoleon's campaign in Egypt - I believe it was the battle of the pyramids where 3 French divisions formed multiple squares to fend of thee Mamelukes they were fighting.

 Horses are also generally flighty creatures and this operates on a fear/pain basis. If a horse encounters something and registers a negative or scary reaction, then they will be highly unlikely to repeatedly go up against what registered that negative reaction.

Offline Hekko

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Re: Horses
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2012, 04:01:37 pm »
A very good reason for forming square when faced with cavalry is that, as you pointed out, it secures the flanks and covers morale. This also awards the infantry with a way to cover all directions, provides officers and the colour party with greater protection. Furthermore, horses are generally adverse to charging into a densely packed formation of men - let alone men with bayonets facing outwards.

I recommend reading about Napoleon's campaign in Egypt - I believe it was the battle of the pyramids where 3 French divisions formed multiple squares to fend of thee Mamelukes they were fighting.

 Horses are also generally flighty creatures and this operates on a fear/pain basis. If a horse encounters something and registers a negative or scary reaction, then they will be highly unlikely to repeatedly go up against what registered that negative reaction.

See this here is the kicker for me, all the things you list ontop of what  I brought up are in no way or form exclusive for squares. The bayonets don't turn into rubber just because they are formed in a line, the amount of fire against a head-on attacker is 4 increased by 300% so the horses are even less likely to run into it. And the rear of a line is quite covered by turning around the rear rank as done by prussians in some engagement if my memory serves me right!

And as I understand it the pyramids were somewhat unique in the fact that the squares were not batallion squares but division squares, meaning that it would take one batallion to form one of the sides i.e. batallions formed in line essentially. So as you can see why I am very sceptical of the mythical powers asigned to squares by people.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 04:05:08 pm by Hekko »

Offline Kator Viridian

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Re: Horses
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2012, 07:21:27 pm »
A very good reason for forming square when faced with cavalry is that, as you pointed out, it secures the flanks and covers morale. This also awards the infantry with a way to cover all directions, provides officers and the colour party with greater protection. Furthermore, horses are generally adverse to charging into a densely packed formation of men - let alone men with bayonets facing outwards.

I recommend reading about Napoleon's campaign in Egypt - I believe it was the battle of the pyramids where 3 French divisions formed multiple squares to fend of thee Mamelukes they were fighting.

 Horses are also generally flighty creatures and this operates on a fear/pain basis. If a horse encounters something and registers a negative or scary reaction, then they will be highly unlikely to repeatedly go up against what registered that negative reaction.

See this here is the kicker for me, all the things you list ontop of what  I brought up are in no way or form exclusive for squares. The bayonets don't turn into rubber just because they are formed in a line, the amount of fire against a head-on attacker is 4 increased by 300% so the horses are even less likely to run into it. And the rear of a line is quite covered by turning around the rear rank as done by prussians in some engagement if my memory serves me right!

And as I understand it the pyramids were somewhat unique in the fact that the squares were not batallion squares but division squares, meaning that it would take one batallion to form one of the sides i.e. batallions formed in line essentially. So as you can see why I am very sceptical of the mythical powers asigned to squares by people.

The only real reason for forming a square is an attack from all directions or because the force attacking the front is so overwhelming it will just surround you anyway, obviously this dosn't deter the fact bayonetes will still be useful but the moral effect of keeping out cavalry or keeping cavalry away or even knowing you can keep it away in a square greatly improved the line infantrys capacity to survive.

The problem with Squares is ... well they didn't work as one would hope, cavalry could still get it and if the infantry behind wasn't watching well you'd get a jab in the back as it rode through the other side. Lancers were particularly useful but it wasn't uncommon for a side of the square to break and panic to set in.