Author Topic: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**  (Read 5592 times)

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Offline McEwan

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A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« on: January 26, 2013, 07:39:15 pm »
And now we come to the greatest enigma in the topic of war, one that has been present since the beginning of organized armies, one that has shaped the plots of novels, movies, and the actual course of military events. It has plagued those who fight, and bears down on the shoulders of those who command them. It is summarized in one question only, a question that has been asked and contemplated by countless commanders and everyday soldiers. One simple question:

"Do I follow this order?"

This suggestion is not about the production or features of BCoF itself, but rather how we, the community, will act upon it. This suggestion could very well be applied to NW, but I feel it just doesn't have the immersion and factors of battle that we're all hoping BCoF will have, which is why I'm posting this here. This suggestion may seem...intriguing to some, and to others extreme to the highest extent of the word. Please just remember that everybody has their own opinion, and therefore the right to run an event the way they choose to.

This idea was first spawned in my brain while looking over this very board. I came across TheBoberton's post in my own "Grand Commander" thread:
The problem with North and South is that it goes so far as to give the general's staff 'rankers', whereas it should simply be the general and his various aides. And the abilities shouldn't really be forced, to be honest. Insubordination was and remains present on a battlefield, and it really should be up to the regimental commander's intuition as to whether or not directly following the orders is worth the risk.

As I said before, insubordination, or the questioning of orders has been the most pressing topic in war for ages upon ages. It was certainly present in the Civil War, as well as the Napoleonic Wars, but like I said, NW doesn't have the capacity for this kind of organic course of events. BCoF will, if it's made the way we are hoping, with 3-D VOIP, the possibility of runners, huge maps, and large amounts of people, make commanding an army (1 team of players) a much more challenging prospect. In this way, orders may be jumbled or lost by runners, orders may arrive too late, or find that new ones are needed; generals themselves may very well make a personal mistake in tactics, and send the entire team onto a path to tragedy. It is here that the minds of each subordinate commander, and my suggestion, come into play.

In BCoF our main concern is immersion. This is why we're pushing for 3-D VOIP, realistic artillery and destruction of environment, etc. We want to be in the Civil War experience. My suggestion is about immersion, but not specifically about the in-game experience. I'm talking about the system of battle as a whole, stretching beyond the servers into the community itself.

As speculation, organized events in BCoF will probably make each team have an overall general more often than not, considering the massive scale of things making complete organization essential to victory. These generals will, of course, issue orders to each regiment under his command, maneuvering them to places of his choosing and issuing other such general commands, leaving the specific combat details to the regiment commanders themselves. But what if a commander doesn't agree with an order he's received? What if he's seen something the command group has not? Predicted something the general had not taken into account? Does he follow orders anyway? Or does he go against them and do what he feels is the right course of action? If he does the latter, what will that entail for him?

As perhaps a way to enforce the role of an overall general, and add immersion to the experience, if a regimental commander goes against an order and is caught in the act, should he be punished? In the real military, a court martial would be the way to deal with issues like this, so having something of the like for these events would make for a much more interesting experience. A regimental commander would, if he disobeyed orders, be summoned to the place where the general's staff of that day currently is (TS channel or something), as well as the host of that event, and be put on trial for his actions. If he can convince the staff that his actions were necessary and primly effective compared to what the outcome of the specific order would be, then he would be free to go. If not, the the officer would be placed on probation, either for leading in a line battle, or even (this is based primly off people's preferences) be banned from the event for one week, or two etc., depending on the perceived severity of the offense by the general's staff and event host (let's just call them judges).

This would not only make sure a general's role in events is bypassed and made obsolete, but also make a regimental commander's decisions of loyalty versus free will and will to survive a massively more interesting prospect. No more would there be events of random lines doing random and even silly things all over the map. Centralization and coordination would be made so much more critical, and battle would be made that much more authentic.

As I always say, I hope this concept fills you with as much excitement as it does for me. Thanks for reading, and please post with any suggestions.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 06:23:25 pm by McEwanMaster »


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Offline Matthew

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 07:50:47 pm »
Brilliant work McEwan as always, I look forward to see more of your ideas =)
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Offline Miller

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 07:55:22 pm »
I must say, i hope the devs are reading these proposals with as much eagerness as i am. i hope its not discarded as over ambitious, because ive never heard of anything thing like this before in rpg. I hope we can see vast improvements in realism, such as this, in BCoF, and that it remains a primary goal of the dev team.

Offline psmith

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 08:13:12 pm »
Love your posts McEwanMaster.  I read that the devs will have a map-specific goal/objective system that will help determine the points that individual players & regiments & commanders earn for achieving them.  Your idea spawned a thought in my head that perhaps the commanders could change regiments' goals during the battle, overriding the server, and thus using a limited # of "command pts" to do the override.  For example, if 3 regiments were assigned to capture and hold "Cemetery Hill", but they are clearly having a hard time of it, the commander(s) could spend a command point(s) to order other regiments to change to that objective.

Perhaps these command points regenerate over time.  Would make the commander role a bit more interesting, and useful.

Also - nothing has been discussed regarding losing points.  I believe games should take away points for certain reasons.  Perhaps if a regimental commander disobeys commands, the commander has the option of penalizing that player's points total at the end of the battle.  If the regimental commander acted prudently, then the commander has the option to also not penalize them. 

Thoughts?


Offline McEwan

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 08:21:10 pm »
Love your posts McEwanMaster.  I read that the devs will have a map-specific goal/objective system that will help determine the points that individual players & regiments & commanders earn for achieving them.  Your idea spawned a thought in my head that perhaps the commanders could change regiments' goals during the battle, overriding the server, and thus using a limited # of "command pts" to do the override.  For example, if 3 regiments were assigned to capture and hold "Cemetery Hill", but they are clearly having a hard time of it, the commander(s) could spend a command point(s) to order other regiments to change to that objective.

Perhaps these command points regenerate over time.  Would make the commander role a bit more interesting, and useful.

Also - nothing has been discussed regarding losing points.  I believe games should take away points for certain reasons.  Perhaps if a regimental commander disobeys commands, the commander has the option of penalizing that player's points total at the end of the battle.  If the regimental commander acted prudently, then the commander has the option to also not penalize them. 

Thoughts?


Personally I think the concept of points for various actions and such is a bit silly, and hard to use in the way you suggested. While point systems like this could fit well in more casual games and events, the purely organic decisions and abilities of the commanders and their men strike a chord of authenticity with me, when it comes to immersion and the courses of events (in more serious events of course).

Your idea, with some tweaking, could be a good change of pace for events on the other hand. Not all battles in BCoF need to be as visceral as I have suggested. And thanks for the compliment!  :D

Thanks Matt and Miller for your comments by the way! ;)


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Offline psmith

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 08:27:56 pm »
Check out a brief write up (the middle part) of this link about Chain of Command's points system.  Quite novel and I've never forgotten it: http://www.gamerevolution.com/review/chain-of-command

Offline McEwan

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 08:35:06 pm »
Check out a brief write up (the middle part) of this link about Chain of Command's points system.  Quite novel and I've never forgotten it: http://www.gamerevolution.com/review/chain-of-command
While the command is determined by points in that game, the regiment system in BCoF will employ the chain of command brought on by the already created structures of the actual regiments playing. The only thing not dictated by the regiment system is who becomes who's the overall genera for each team, which is something that the host and rules of that event could easily decide and factor in.


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Offline psmith

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 09:11:26 pm »
Good point, however for pubbers who just want to drop-into an organized unit and play the game on any Sunday afternoon, may be a fun element.

Offline GoldenEagle

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 09:19:34 pm »
But with this type of gameplay it needs to be a higher penalty for death. For example, you can go up a hill to get hill advantage or just go straight on and have an even battle against a bit bigger regiment. You can choose to go up to the hill, but then you will maybe not able to play the game. If you choose to do as commanded, you will just die and spawn in again next round.

Offline McEwan

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 11:01:25 pm »
But with this type of gameplay it needs to be a higher penalty for death. For example, you can go up a hill to get hill advantage or just go straight on and have an even battle against a bit bigger regiment. You can choose to go up to the hill, but then you will maybe not able to play the game. If you choose to do as commanded, you will just die and spawn in again next round.
Not exactly sure what you're trying to say. ???


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Offline Olafson

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2013, 11:20:53 pm »
Hmm, I do like this idea. While it might not be a good idea during normal puplic battles, with preset objectives, it might work out quite well with actual real persons commanding an army, like we currently have in NW. Problem is, that it is hard to integrate into the game mechanics. It should be enforced by the players itself. Though, I fear that it is not going to work out well, if not every single person agrees to it.

Offline McEwan

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2013, 11:41:35 pm »
Problem is, that it is hard to integrate into the game mechanics. It should be enforced by the players itself. Though, I fear that it is not going to work out well, if not every single person agrees to it.
Seems like everyone is doing this. :D
This suggestion is not about the production or features of BCoF itself, but rather how we, the community, will act upon it.

I'm not thinking about preset objectives or anything of the kind at all. I'm talking the about the completely organic interactions between the generals and his subordinate commanders. If a regimental commander disobeyed orders then really the only way for the general to know that is if one of his companions, be it a runner, assistant, etc. or the leader of another regiment, tells the general or one of his assistants that the order was disobeyed. Completely player-run "mechanics" in other words.

And I agree. This type of concept is very much at one end of the spectrum of the seriousness of organized events, and many might not agree with it. An event of this type will most likely be few and far between, but if regiments like this type of concept, then they'll have the chance to experience it.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 02:18:05 am by McEwanMaster »


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Offline Olafson

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2013, 02:17:04 am »
I would love an event like that, but I already fear that there will not be many of this kind... :/

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2013, 03:20:09 pm »
Purpose-Driven Gaming - the concept of purposeful gaming, i.e. pairing a "larger purpose" with "in the trenches action" has huge attraction for me.  I believe this is the future of highly-addictive gaming.   A compelling element that would certainly add a long life to BCoF is a strategic companion game that mixes with the FPS game.  Planetside2 tries to accomplish this, but I can't help but lose interest in the fight.  Having an endless, persistent war with no possibility of victory (or perception of such) made me stop playing after a week. 

Some examples in gaming that have used this successfully are:

Heroes and Generals - a game under development that will provide a command system to address the aspect of "herding cats" into cohesive, cooperative forces whose outcome of battle actually means something on a larger, strategic map.

cRPG Strategus - A current game that can be played now, is a M&B Warband mod. The interesting mechanic here is that each Strategus Event has a time-limited campaign and then it restarts fresh.  During each campaign (5-6 months long?), battles are scheduled by the game servers based on conflicts that are initiated by players & clans on the browser-based strategic map.  Players (both public and clannies) sign up for battles on the website and then show up in TeamSpeak to get organized 15-20 minutes before the battle.  Public players or players from other clans play as mercenaries, or "fillers", in case an individual clan can't fill the 50-slot roster by itself.

Iron Crescendo was a strategic event for Red Orchestra.  If you follow the link provided, it gives a concise overview of the key features.  The most interesting, and addictive features for me were:
  • 4 or 6 hour persistently-running battles, once or twice per week
  • Never-ending respawns but with capture-able, round-ending objectives on each map
  • Round victory resulted in capturing a geographic area on the strategic map
  • Capturing an area on the strategic map added resources to be used in upcoming battles

This may be something the community develops as a mod, and I would certainly love to see it.  Can't tell you how jealous I was of people playing ACW: The Blue & The Gray mod for Empire Total War (don't own it, doh!) which had a strategic campaign.  When The North & South mod for Napoleon TW came out; it didn't have it (and wasn't very polished) and was very disappointing for me. 

Thoughts?

Offline GoldenEagle

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Re: A Catch 22 of Modern Warfare **CAUTION: Yet more reading.**
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2013, 04:22:50 pm »
But with this type of gameplay it needs to be a higher penalty for death. For example, you can go up a hill to get hill advantage or just go straight on and have an even battle against a bit bigger regiment. You can choose to go up to the hill, but then you will maybe not able to play the game. If you choose to do as commanded, you will just die and spawn in again next round.
Not exactly sure what you're trying to say. ???

Short Version: Its better to follow orders and just die for a round than being banned from several games so why would anyone disobey any orders?