Ukraine

[Duuring]

If only the Ruski's would follow any rules.

[MaxLam]

Usually according to International law you don't recognize a government if this government doesn't have effective control over its territory, which wasn't the case in the Ukrainian situation. Moreover if you follow the Tobar doctrine you should refrain from recognizing a government that came to power through unconstitutional means and which doesn't have the support of the people: the parties "shall not recognize any other Government which may come into power in any of the five Republics [in South America] as a consequence of a coup d'etat, or of a revolution against the recognized Government, so long as the freely elected representatives of the people thereof have not constitutionally reorganized the country." Yet the Ukrainian government was recognized nonetheless, and now you have a civil war. Its legitimacy is clearly weak. Thus I would say that sending weapons to the separatists is hardly worse than sending weapons to the Ukrainian  government.

[Wigster600]

If only the Ruski's would follow any rules.

This is exactly the sort of shit that happens when you go from serfdom to attempted socialism in the space of 50 years.

[Duuring]

Seriously, MaxLam, stop being an idiot. Saying 'the president was ousted wrongfully' is one thing, but that doesn't mean the new parliament and the new president have been elected trough unconstitutional means. Parliament is elected independently from the president anyway.

It's also unconstitutional to steal money from the state to make your own palace, but I don't hear you about that.

[Rejenorst]

If only the Ruski's would follow any rules.

Why would they when other nations only follow them when its convenient? Russia follows rules when its convenient like anyone else.

[MaxLam]

Seriously, MaxLam, stop being an idiot. Saying 'the president was ousted wrongfully' is one thing, but that doesn't mean the new parliament and the new president have been elected trough unconstitutional means. Parliament is elected independently from the president anyway.

It's also unconstitutional to steal money from the state to make your own palace, but I don't hear you about that.

The problem right now isn't about the election of the president, but about constitutional order in general. You can't say that they have "constitutionally reorganized the country" since important separatist regions still refuse to aknowledge the new order. The discussions between the countries involved in this crisis are mostly about this constitutional reorganization.

About Yanu's palace, it's illegal, not unconstitutional. The constitution protects the principles of the Nation and the organization of the State. I'm sure that the Chocolate King didn't built his fortune just by selling chocolate in the streets. After all, Ukraine was still a socialist country 25 years ago.

[Archduke Sven]

Seriously, MaxLam, stop being an idiot. Saying 'the president was ousted wrongfully' is one thing, but that doesn't mean the new parliament and the new president have been elected trough unconstitutional means. Parliament is elected independently from the president anyway.

It's also unconstitutional to steal money from the state to make your own palace, but I don't hear you about that.

The problem right now isn't about the election of the president, but about constitutional order in general. You can't say that they have "constitutionally reorganized the country" since important separatist regions still refuse to aknowledge the new order. The discussions between the countries involved in this crisis are mostly about this constitutional reorganization.

About Yanu's palace, it's illegal, not unconstitutional. The constitution protects the principles of the Nation and the organization of the State. I'm sure that the Chocolate King didn't built his fortune just by selling chocolate in the streets. After all, Ukraine was still a socialist country 25 years ago.

Oh, so what Petro-guy did when he was a business man suddenly makes the actions of yanukowitsch better. Aight mate. How do you know that he didn't make his money just off of selling chocolate? if you're going to make a claim support it because right now you look pretty dumb.

[Suede]

Lol, in discussions with MaxLam it is always returning to some "unconstitutionality" of current authority in Ukraine.
so let's return to this

1. Yanu never withdrew. He even claimed that he was still President.
2. According to the Constitution, only a majority of 3/4 could have removed Yanu. There was no such majority. And moreover the procedure wasn't followed.
3. Me not understand.
4. Which court?

1. He said a lot of stupid things, because he is a pretty dumb itself, so what? There are facts and actions(or lack of them), that shows the real situation that happen. Come on, he started to prepare for leaving since 19.02 when valuable things and the part of important documents were taken away from his palace along with his woman, which means that he did not hope or plan to return. He made an videoappeal that he is legally President and he remains in Ukraine, but gone right after that. Then did not stay in loyal to him Donbass or Crimea, where all was moreover quietly, and do not even try to do something from there - he fled from there to Russia, from where do not even bother to made an attempts to return or at least perform his duties. What is it, if not a runaway?
2. Thing is, that that resolution does not removed Yanu - at that moment it was already given that he already disappeared and do not performs his duties as a President at that moment - self-withdrewed in a unconstitutional way, because our constitution isn't perfect, there is not provided,  that president can just runaway from his duties. So by that resolution Rada does not removed anything, but, based on the circumstances of extreme urgency, decided to "ensured that the President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych in an unconstitutional manner withdrew from the exercise of constitutional powers and is one that does not fulfill its obligations." - so confirmed the fact that held, and non-constitutional majority is enough for resolution.
And because this is happen - appoints new elections etc.
3. I meant, that in parliament were people who understand law, both internal and international. You can be sure that they prepare this as much according to law as it can be, to avoid accusation in unconstitutionality like yours.
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Court_of_Ukraine for example, or some international, like International Court of Justice
Thing is that he does not even tried.

[MaxLam]

1. He said a lot of stupid things, because he is a pretty dumb itself, so what? There are facts and actions(or lack of them), that shows the real situation that happen. Come on, he started to prepare for leaving since 19.02 when valuable things and the part of important documents were taken away from his palace along with his woman, which means that he did not hope or plan to return. He made an videoappeal that he is legally President and he remains in Ukraine, but gone right after that. Then did not stay in loyal to him Donbass or Crimea, where all was moreover quietly, and do not even try to do something from there - he fled from there to Russia, from where do not even bother to made an attempts to return or at least perform his duties. What is it, if not a runaway?

This doesn't make any sense. If Yanu thought that he couldn't remain President, he would have resigned. But he didn't. Yanu probably believed that he could obtain some help from Russia, or even become a President in exile. But Russia obivously considered that Yanu was politically dead and refused to support him.

2. Thing is, that that resolution does not removed Yanu - at that moment it was already given that he already disappeared and do not performs his duties as a President at that moment - self-withdrewed in a unconstitutional way, because our constitution isn't perfect, there is not provided,  that president can just runaway from his duties.

That's stupid. Sometimes running away can be the duty of a president. The Polish government ran away too when the country was invaded by Nazi Germany. Anyway, there was nothing in the constitution which said that the Parliament could remove the President if, according to their own foolish opinion, the President wasnt "performing his duties" anymore. Article 111 of the constitution allowed to impeach the president in case of "state treason or other crime." Running away is certainly not a state treason. However, ploting to overthrow the legitimate president is a state treason.

4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Court_of_Ukraine for example, or some international, like International Court of Justice
Thing is that he does not even tried.

Because that's totally out of the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice.

[Duuring]

Poland was declared war upon and military invaded. That's hardly the same as running from your post as president.

The parties who removed him from power had tried to make deal after deal with Yanukovich in order to get elections. If they were 'plotting', they did so the day they ousted him, and even his own party joined in.

[MarshalKim]

Not sure how reliable this is: http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.ca/2015/02/german-intelligence-ukraine-death-toll.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/world/europe/more-than-a-million-ukrainians-have-been-displaced-un-says.html?_r=0

Spoiler

Of the Ukrainians entering Russia, more than half a million had crossed its western border, taking advantage of a nine-month, visa-free stay allowance; around 260,000 had applied for some form of refugee status.

[close]

The government forces won't admit losing more then 1 500 soldiers but admits to losing at-least 20 000 soldiers. While claiming to have 50 000 servicemen. Those are significant numbers.

The separatists claim to have killed 31 000 Ukrainian Soldiers while Ukraine claims to have "only" lost 1 500 soldiers. At the same time it is reported that the hospitals in Ukraine are filled with wounded soldiers and we aren't talking about any Pro Russians in hospitals.

[Duuring]

I very much doubt that. I follow a few pages of volunteer battalions that were in the thick of the fighting, yet their KIA was never extremely high - a few a week if fighting got intense.

Don't know about civilians, of course.

[Suede]

Because that's totally out of the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice.

And what about Constitutional Court of Ukraine?He could applied there and prove that he still is legitimate if he is so right.

If Yanu thought that he couldn't remain President, he would have resigned. But he didn't.

Yes, instead of made it as it should've been done, he just leave all, leave his duties which assigned to him by the Constitution, and runaway.

That's stupid. Sometimes running away can be the duty of a president. The Polish government ran away too when the country was invaded by Nazi Germany.

It can't be compared, different things

Anyway, there was nothing in the constitution which said that the Parliament could remove the President if, according to their own foolish opinion, the President wasnt "performing his duties" anymore. Article 111 of the constitution allowed to impeach the president in case of "state treason or other crime." Running away is certainly not a state treason. However, ploting to overthrow the legitimate president is a state treason.

And again - Parliament does not remove Yanu, they just made resolution which confirmed, that President self-removed and cannot perform his duties, and made further decision because of it.
To make it more clear.
1. Yanu runaways and withdrewed from his duties of President of Ukraine by himself in the way that is not specified in the Constitution(in other hand, there also not specified that if he runaways, he still remains President)- take is as fact1.
2. Parliament gather together and check - President is somewhere no one knows for sure where, does not do what he should do -  fact1 confirmed, so they made an appropriate decision in a Resolution
3. fact1 about Yanu self-removing wasn't appealed by him or anyone other in Constitutional Court of Ukraine or any other, and wasn't officially declared as one that does not held, he also didn't tries to return to perform of his duties.
4. So if it is held, then Resolution with decision to ensure him self-removed do not have anything against the law.

Indeed he is politically dead(maybe real as well), PP is recognized even by Russia, i see no point to bother on this topic again and again.

[Suede]

The separatists claim to have killed 31 000 Ukrainian Soldiers while Ukraine claims to have "only" lost 1 500 soldiers.

If they would have killed 31k Ukrainian Soldiers, PP would not have been a president, but would sit somewhere in Rostov along with Yanu in very best case.
There is for sure more then 1500 KIA, also like 1500 MIA, but not so much as they declared.

[Archduke Sven]

Not sure how reliable this is: http://warnewsupdates.blogspot.ca/2015/02/german-intelligence-ukraine-death-toll.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/03/world/europe/more-than-a-million-ukrainians-have-been-displaced-un-says.html?_r=0

Spoiler

Of the Ukrainians entering Russia, more than half a million had crossed its western border, taking advantage of a nine-month, visa-free stay allowance; around 260,000 had applied for some form of refugee status.

[close]

The government forces won't admit losing more then 1 500 soldiers but admits to losing at-least 20 000 soldiers. While claiming to have 50 000 servicemen. Those are significant numbers.

The separatists claim to have killed 31 000 Ukrainian Soldiers while Ukraine claims to have "only" lost 1 500 soldiers. At the same time it is reported that the hospitals in Ukraine are filled with wounded soldiers and we aren't talking about any Pro Russians in hospitals.

31k is way too much. This is a low intensity war that has had several long pauses and has never involved forces of more than regiment sized in combat. This war is more comparable to the situation in Afghanistan and we dont see 31 000 soldiers dying there every year (More like a couple hundred). 1500 sounds like a reasonable number of dead, although i assume the wounded is 3 to 4 times as many.