Poll

Are the "Oldest Pyramids of the world" that were found in Crimea, the real reason for the War?

Yes! Putin only took Crimea because of the alien pyramids.
13 (61.9%)
Yes! I don't believe that the pyramids were made by aliens, but I do believe that Russia took Crimea because of the incredible cultural treasures hidden inside them.
8 (38.1%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Author Topic: Ukraine  (Read 367886 times)

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Offline Nipplestockings

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3465 on: January 15, 2015, 09:57:35 pm »
That isn't Russian camo. That's actually just a green windbreaker that I could buy at any outdoors store lol. I wouldn't be surprised if that guy just owned that jacket and wore it because he thought it would make him look cooler and more like a soldier.

Offline Rejenorst

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3466 on: January 15, 2015, 11:59:38 pm »
A revolution were the entire parliament is exactly the same as before the 'revolution' is hardly one.

That's because the 'revolution' in Ukraine is more characteristic of a coup. However; more than 25% of the parliament was missing or in hiding and the political makeup was inevitably changed and the media seems content to classify it as a revolution.

Faces of the "russian" world
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"Givi", "Abhaz", "Mongol", "Motorolla"
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Btw, same camo as ISIS uses
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looks like both got it in same russian shop

Syria is one of Russia's largest weapons export markets. Its inevitable that a ton of Russian equipment and clothing would float around there. + what Nipple said.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 12:01:18 am by Rejenorst »
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Offline Duuring

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3467 on: January 16, 2015, 12:44:50 am »
In the vote of the approval of Yatsenyuk government, only 33 were not present, or 13% of the entire Rada. Even if they were all present and had all voted against, it still would have carried.

Besides, the 'political makeup' can be changed because MP's have the right to switch parties or form their own - Theirs seats are their own. Of course, this happened in great numbers, and in thart regard we can call it a revolution because it means 'rapid political change', but yet again calling this a 'coup' is ignoring the democratic and legal lines the entire 'coup' followed regarding the creation of the government.

Offline Rejenorst

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3468 on: January 16, 2015, 02:45:55 am »
In the vote of the approval of Yatsenyuk government, only 33 were not present, or 13% of the entire Rada. Even if they were all present and had all voted against, it still would have carried.

I am talking about the overthrow of the head of state on Feb 21/22. Your talking about the approval of the coalition interim government on Feb 27 which collapsed in July. Government parties being united in attempting to resume normalization and stability in filling a vacuum after a tumultuous event is not unheard of and does not necessarily denote widespread acceptance of political outcomes.

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Besides, the 'political makeup' can be changed because MP's have the right to switch parties or form their own - Theirs seats are their own. Of course, this happened in great numbers, and in thart regard we can call it a revolution because it means 'rapid political change', but yet again calling this a 'coup' is ignoring the democratic and legal lines the entire 'coup' followed regarding the creation of the government.

Why didn't you just say off the bat that it can be regarded as a revolution rather than say it can't?

I have already pointed out that the legal lines of the constitution where not followed. In fact the constitutional amendments where repealed. I am not arguing that this is unacceptable but that the success of a political action dictates what is considered to be right. In regards to democratic lines; Democracy is not really exercised with the thought of a violently incensed and armed mob looming over you and growing increasingly tired and impatient.


« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 04:44:14 am by Rejenorst »
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Offline Suede

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3469 on: January 16, 2015, 06:01:41 pm »
That isn't Russian camo. That's actually just a green windbreaker that I could buy at any outdoors store lol.
It's Gorka-3, so it is a russian uniform, however it could be bought in stores indeed.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3470 on: January 16, 2015, 11:21:31 pm »
If the result dictates whether the action was acceptable or not, then I don't see why we wouldn't call this an acceptable move. There have been presidential and government elections that have been considered legit by various organizations and countries including the Russian Federation, and with an election result where the only party running on an anti-Maidan platform received under 9% of the seats, how can we say that the developments of the Maidan do not carry the approval of the majority of the people of Ukraine?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 11:24:08 pm by Duuring »

Offline Rejenorst

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3471 on: January 17, 2015, 05:02:00 am »
The main reason that parties such as myself might be reluctant to acknowledge its acceptability/success lies with the fact that its impossible to measure success while the country is being torn apart, the economy is spiraling and its difficult to see how united the Ukrainians where on the subject of the EU association agreement in the first place.

I have a feeling that the protests which toppled Ukraine's leader started as a small protest with a few hundred people that soon turned into outrage and a flurry of various grievances such as police brutality, freedom of speech infringement, corruption etc which is what I think was the uniting glue of the protests:

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I have been attending protests since day one: 21 November 2012. It started with a peaceful protest of a couple hundred people. I painted a poster - “Europe Starts With You” - and stood alone near the independence monument. Then young people started to come up and talk, and, with many of those I met on those November days, we are still meeting regularly at the protests.

The day the Ukrainian government decided to stop the agreement with the EU, I almost cried in disbelief. The government had finally shown its true face. We were so naive and optimistic that we actually believed they wouldn’t. Then the situation suddenly changed. It was not about Europe anymore, but about stopping the violence against peaceful protesters, ensuring justice and demanding the resignation of the criminal government and its president.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/ukraine-crisis-protesters-kiev-euromaidan-independence-square
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However I suspect that groups which later joined the protests and were more organized and seemed to be making political deals/alliances in the background seemed to be better able to influence the tone or direction of the actual outcomes.

Yat's himself never made any pretenses about whether or not the decisions of his government would be extremely unpopular in light of the Ukraine's circumstances and the need to avoid the Ukraine from defaulting by complying with IMF and EU demands in terms of austerity measures for the sake of bail out funds.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-10-31/ukrainian-president-backs-kamikake-yatsenyuk-as-premier.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-13/ukraine-s-yatsenyuk-sees-commitment-to-change-helping-imf-loan.html

Additionally there was never any doubt that there was disagreement with closer ties to the EU from the East and Crimea:

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There is little doubt that Viktor Yanukovych's rule is corrupt. It stands for the interests of the richest few in Ukraine's highly unequal society and is responsible for the brutal suppression of opposition. The majority of protesting Ukrainians hope for a just, fair and democratic society, even if naively connecting this hope to an idealised "Europe".

Yet Euromaidan, Ukraine's pro-EU protest movement, has still not become a point of conflict between the Ukrainian government and Ukrainian society as a whole. According to the polls, support for Euromaidan is heavily concentrated in the western and central regions, while Ukrainians living in the east and the south of the country overwhelmingly disapprove. After mass violent clashes with the police started on Sunday, in which a leading role was played by a far-right network of groups called Right Sector, there is no doubt that people in the eastern and southern regions would condemn the protests even more. This is unfortunate because the agenda of the protest has shifted from a desire to be associated with Europe to the struggle against the police state after parliament ripped up the constitution and rushed through laws restricting, among others, the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of speech.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/22/ukraine-protests-europe-far-right-violence
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Sure enough protests about austerity have apparently taken place already and while no way near on the scale of the Euromaidan protests; I have the nagging suspicion that we may have somewhat overplayed the desire for the EU integration rather than EU values for the sake of our own interests when it comes to looking at the country as a whole (ie: prior to loosing a chunk of its territory).
http://uatoday.tv/news/ukrainians-protest-against-2015-budget-proposal-outside-parliament-building-400074.html

For me its far to early to tell whether success is measurable. Once the situation stabilizes and the Ukraine begins to prosper while its citizens show resilience to austerity I think we'll be able to turn around and say yep 'success!'.

As for the 9% election vote for parties running against Maidan I assume your referring to the presidential election in hindsight of the Crimea and the East having been lost?

« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 02:29:13 pm by Rejenorst »
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Offline MaxLam

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3472 on: January 20, 2015, 12:13:39 pm »
So apparently a few days ago fascist Yatsenyuk spoke about the "Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany" (during WWII) on a German TV channel.

Offline Wigster600

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3473 on: January 20, 2015, 12:17:54 pm »
These Ukranians seem like Austrians, just a bunch of German wannabes.  ::)

Offline Duuring

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3474 on: January 20, 2015, 12:54:11 pm »
Fascist Yatsenyuk? I see you are using the Russian definition now.

"Fascist (Noun) - Someone who is considered an enemy of holy and peace-loving Russia".

Offline Akko

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3475 on: January 20, 2015, 12:55:16 pm »
Fascist Yatsenyuk? I see you are using the Russian definition now.

"Fascist (Noun) - Someone who is considered an enemy of holy and peace-loving Russia".

Plenty of Fascists in Russia as well, but the Russian media turns a blind eye to them most of them time.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3476 on: January 20, 2015, 01:08:27 pm »
Or gives them high-ranking positions as 'advisers' to members of the Duma.

Offline Archduke Sven

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3477 on: January 20, 2015, 10:28:46 pm »
Fascist Yatsenyuk? I see you are using the Russian definition now.

"Fascist (Noun) - Someone who is considered an enemy of holy and peace-loving Russia".

Plenty of Fascists in Russia as well, but the Russian media turns a blind eye to them most of them time.

Russian fascists are known as politicians

So apparently a few days ago fascist Yatsenyuk spoke about the "Soviet invasion of Ukraine and Germany" (during WWII) on a German TV channel.

What is so wrong about this act? The Soviets did invade Ukraine (or rather the General government) and Germany.


told that bih don't @ me

Offline MarshalKim

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3478 on: January 20, 2015, 11:36:30 pm »
Bolsheviks controlled Ukraine and defended Kiev from Poles who had just defeated Western Ukraine.
As a territory of the Soviet Union it fell to the Germans in WW2 and then the Soviets took it back and then went on to crush Germany.

It was Germany that declared war and invaded the USSR.
Massive job loss will take place, but if left allowed to, the market will adapt. I just don't want my job to be taken away from me, tbh.

Offline MaxLam

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Re: Ukraine
« Reply #3479 on: January 20, 2015, 11:37:55 pm »
1. Nazi Germany invaded the USSR, not the contrary.
2. Ukraine was part of the USSR. Therefore the USSR couldn't invade Ukraine.
Anyone who disagrees with this is a fascist.