Author Topic: Best Dressed Warrior  (Read 81069 times)

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Offline Duuring

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #390 on: December 02, 2016, 08:13:33 pm »
They were traitors who joined the army that had violenty invaded and occupied their own nation just a year before. Their only contribution to western civilization was aiding one dictatorial regime fighting against another. I do recogize the fact that many of them joined out of anti-Bolshevik feelings rather then pro-Nazi ideas.

Troops captured by the Soviet Army were not sent to meet 'their ultimate demise'. They were treated harshly, but still as POWs. Only Soviet citizens who had joined the Germans were punished by the Soviets. Surrendering to the western allies also didn't save you, most of the time; The allies had made an agreement that collaborators would be sent to their respective nations.

You also don't have to bother with hiding the Swastika's. A SS-uniform is still a Nazi imagery even with the swastika hidden, but it's allowed for historic discussion.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2016, 08:18:45 pm by Duuring »

Offline Peppers

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #391 on: December 03, 2016, 11:50:11 am »


The West German government set up a Commission headed by Erich Maschke to investigate the fate of German POW in the war, in its report of 1974 they found that 3,060,000 [16] German military personnel were taken prisoner by the USSR and that 1,094,250 died in captivity ( 549,360 from 1941-April 1945; 542,911 from May 1945 to June 1950 and 1,979 from July 1950 to 1955) [17] According to German historian Rüdiger Overmans ca. 3,000,000 POW were taken by the USSR, he put the "maximum" number of German POW deaths in Soviet hands at 1.0 million.[5] Based on his research, Overmans believes that the deaths of 363,000 POWs in Soviet captivity can be confirmed be the files of Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt), in addition he maintains that it seems entirely plausible, while not provable, that 700,000 German military personnel listed as missing actually died in Soviet custody.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_Soviet_Union

Offline Duuring

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #392 on: December 03, 2016, 12:38:09 pm »
Yes, they died in large numbers due to mismanagment, cruelty, extreme conditions and lack of interest in their fate. Soviet-born citizens, meanwhile, were actual targets and ended up executed or Gulagged.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2016, 12:41:54 pm by Duuring »

Offline Wolff

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #393 on: December 03, 2016, 05:17:45 pm »
They were treated harshly, but still as POWs.

like the three brothers from my hometown who were all executed on the same day because of their SS-membership  ::)
And of course it's the normal way to keep POWs a year or even  longer inprisoned only because of a partymembership in their homeland as it happened to thousands of german POWs and also members of my family.

But atleast the german prisoners weren't hold as animallike as the russian POWs in germany

Offline Ted

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #394 on: December 03, 2016, 05:51:29 pm »
They were treated harshly, but still as POWs.

like the three brothers from my hometown who were all executed on the same day because of their SS-membership  ::)
And of course it's the normal way to keep POWs a year or even  longer inprisoned only because of a partymembership in their homeland as it happened to thousands of german POWs and also members of my family.

But atleast the german prisoners weren't hold as animallike as the russian POWs in germany

SS-members were treated not as POWs but as criminals. However the Russians did not treat the common soldier as bad as the Germans did - they didn't gas tens of thousands of regular Wehrmacht-Soldiers just because they were German.
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Offline Riddlez

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #395 on: December 03, 2016, 06:43:09 pm »
I find their sacrifice and willingness to stop a truly evil ideology as heroic.
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I find their willingness to willfully betray their country and join the very army that gassed, executed, tortured minorities and mislead the rest of the population about that, sickening to the core of my being.

As I (and Duuring) said, they were traitors, and less. I'll keep my thoughts on what should've been done with them for myself.
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Offline Duuring

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #396 on: December 04, 2016, 01:16:24 am »
In their defence, they weren't aware of those actions when joining. Discrimination against the Jews was clear, of course, and ignorance does not absolve you of blame. The Dutch army apparantly took a more practical stand, apparantly: When they needed new Tank officers, apparantly they asked Dutch SS-officers who had served in tank regiments. They declined, though this story can't be confirmed entirely. Undoubtly it's not a story they teach you at the KMA.

As Riddlez said, SS were declared a criminal organisation, not a part of the Armed Forces so whether you agree with this or not, the Soviet-Union was legally allowed to deal with SS'ers as criminals. Not that they probably cared. The Soviet-Union was an evil place, I won't deny that. For both its enemies as well as its own people - countless peoples, togethering numbering in the millions, were collectively punished.

Some Soviet POW's were kept in the town of my grandmother. They were forced to work there, but my grandmother recalled her and her friends playing with them during their breaks. They were probably executed somewhere in 1944. And to me, that signals the difference: The Soviet-Union might have mistreated this POW's, might have worked them to extreme conditions and they might have excecuted some unjustly, but in the end, there was no wish to exterminate them down to the last man. Both evil, but one definitaly more so.

And Wolff, to be honest, if their party membership is what made led to them being imprisoned longer, well, this could have been easily avoided: By not joining the Nazi Party. Actions have consequences.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2016, 01:24:52 am by Duuring »

Offline Bravescot

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #397 on: December 04, 2016, 04:49:18 am »
Aren't we derailing the topic a fair bit here?

Offline Duuring

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #398 on: December 04, 2016, 12:25:38 pm »
Obviously, but this topic is not that active anyway. The entire historical section (as well as the re-enactment topic) is, sadly. I always enjoy a good historical discussion.

Offline Wolff

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #399 on: December 05, 2016, 10:41:58 pm »
They were treated harshly, but still as POWs.

like the three brothers from my hometown who were all executed on the same day because of their SS-membership  ::)
And of course it's the normal way to keep POWs a year or even  longer inprisoned only because of a partymembership in their homeland as it happened to thousands of german POWs and also members of my family.

But atleast the german prisoners weren't hold as animallike as the russian POWs in germany

SS-members were treated not as POWs but as criminals. However the Russians did not treat the common soldier as bad as the Germans did - they didn't gas tens of thousands of regular Wehrmacht-Soldiers just because they were German.

Thats what I said. I don't even know the numbers of russian povs gased. But how the russian soldiers wasn't even treat as good as an animal and the planed starvation of hundrd thousands or even millions is unbelievable. That's a crime quite a lot of german soldiers were aware of and is probably one of the crimes they were most ashamed of.

Duuring your "argument" according the party-membership shows your arrogance one more time as it always appears when you talk about germany in general or more in NS-germany specifically.

Offline TheRedRedcoat

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #400 on: December 12, 2016, 07:47:16 am »
Hitler and the Nazi Party were objectively evil in all aspects. They were unilaterally more evil than the Soviet Union, and every German in Germany was complicit in their actions and cannot be absolved of blame. There was no honorable defense of fatherland by any German soldiers, Wehrmacht or SS. Only objectively evil and greedy territorial ambition.

Offline William

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #401 on: December 12, 2016, 05:48:06 pm »
Hitler and the Nazi Party were objectively evil in all aspects. They were unilaterally more evil than the Soviet Union, and every German in Germany was complicit in their actions and cannot be absolved of blame. There was no honorable defense of fatherland by any German soldiers, Wehrmacht or SS. Only objectively evil and greedy territorial ambition.
So joining out of a love for ones country is wrong? So you're telling me that any person who served in the Wehrmacht was automatically evil? So you're telling me that when you read reports of the Red Army raping entire cities that they joined out of territorial ambition? So you're telling me that German soldiers who enlisted because their country was economically ruined by the allies were joining out of territorial ambition? So you're telling me that when you read reports of how the Soviet Union brutally oppressed and killed millions in such terrible events as the Great Terror, the Polish Operation, the Ukrainian famine, the mass killing of kulaks, brutal suppression of peasants, Soviet Partisans violating the rules of war, the list goes on and on

I'm not saying that what Nazi Germany did was good, I think what the high command of the party stood for was evil and cannot be overlooked but the everyday foot soldier who was drafted into the army is not to be blamed for the ambition of the high command of his leadership. To honestly believe that every German was some antisemtic lunatic is both reduduant, stupid, and absolutely backwards. The Germany army followed the Geneva Convention rules for the most part and where they didn't follow, other countries often did the same but were not punished because they won the war, go figure. Don't even attempt to make the argument that the Soviets did this or that because they did not sign the Geneva Convention and subsequently treated Germans and others like dirt. The Germans were quite good about courtmarshalling and punishing those who broke rules as compared to the Soviets who willingly broke them and were never punished.

There's quite a bold line between the SS and the rest of the Germany military so to go on blaming the actions of the SS as the actions of the average day foot soldier is just plain dumb.

Does this mean that every American soldier joined out of territorial ambition since they fought in a war out of the defense of their country following the Attack on Pearl Harbor?

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Offline TheRedRedcoat

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #402 on: December 12, 2016, 10:05:27 pm »
One of the more humorous claims of German apologists is that Germans were enlisting and fighting for the defense of their fatherland and to defend themselves from soviet atrocity. Before the Soviets could commit a single atrocity against the Germans, the Germans were the ones who actually invaded the Soviet Union with the goal of exterminating its Slavic population and clearing it for Lebensraum. It's idiotic to pin any significant atrocities on the Soviets, as they were the ones that were invaded, endured 20,000,000 casualties, and suffered through an invading army attempting to exterminate their entire ethnicity.

The Geneva Convention was thrown in the trash by Hitler on the Eastern Front. He cared little for it, and there are frequent accounts of Wehrmacht units executing civilian populations. One such is from an Italian journalist who accompanied a Wermacht unit and wrote multiple books on his experiences with them.

Offline Peppers

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #403 on: December 12, 2016, 11:26:36 pm »
You do understand that the Soviets where going to attack Germany like a few weeks before Germany attacked the Soviets right? The Germans got intel that the soviets where ramping up production on tanks and where preparing to invade Europe as they did before against Poland to turn Europe into a communist land.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy

Offline TheRedRedcoat

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Re: Best Dressed Warrior
« Reply #404 on: December 12, 2016, 11:48:19 pm »
You do understand that the Soviets where going to attack Germany like a few weeks before Germany attacked the Soviets right? The Germans got intel that the soviets where ramping up production on tanks and where preparing to invade Europe as they did before against Poland to turn Europe into a communist land.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_offensive_plans_controversy

I have heard information to that effect before, but your own source casts doubt on its validity, and it seems like a cheap attempt to justify Germany's actions.

Even if Stalin was planning an invasion, a preemptive strike would be justified, but not a wholesale genocide and policy of ethnic cleansing.