The community deserves better

[chuuch1]

Yep, agree with ya.  Shit admining.  Trigger happy, ban happy admins power tripping for the slightest infraction.  These guys need to review who they make admins and get some consistency when it comes to bans

[Death by EMP]

I rarely get involved in this community, except for a few isolated jaunts into Mount and Blade: Napoleonic Wars, but recent events have caught my attention here. And while I get why there is some internal conflict within the "revolutionaries", as it were, I think it is valuable to take a step back and marvel at this:

"The main administrator of the forum actually made his girlfriend an administrator."

For those who defend them on behalf of the fact that they made the game, well, you would have been right a couple years ago when the group was a non-commercial modding group. However, they are now a fully independent, commercial game development studio, and they should put on their big boy britches, mature to criticism, and act like it.

That's my two cents. I'll be generous to myself and call it reason. 'Tis easy to get caught up in all this, so I thought I'd share my thoughts, is all. Hopefully I will be allowed to continue doing so in the days ahead. Thank you for your consideration.

There is alot I could respond too, but I think this is probably sums up the core of the problem the best.

FSE never has made the transition between being a group of people giving away a mod for free, to a commercial company. I hosted a party last night, a friend brought me a bottle a Galliano. I was grateful for it. The week before I hosted a separate party, I went to the store and bought a bottle of Galliano, I wasn't grateful towards the salesman because I paid for the product fair and square. Vince cannot assume that we owe him gratitude for making the game, because we have now payed for it, so he therefore has no gratitude to draw upon for people to turn a blind eye to his faux-pas. The obvious solution being to act up and not commit faux-pas.

FSE has not realised this and before they do there won't be any true change, because everything else is a symptom of this.

As Vorlen says I am not on a witchhunt for the admins, those who have overstepped their boundries know it, those who have not should not feel targeted. Death by EMP, if the way you responded to this is in anyway indicitave of how you admin you might want to take a step back and think a bit, because LittleGuy's response is by far better, more efficient and befitting of an admin. I am breaking two rules, the ridicolous solidarity rule and the secrecy rule, both of which serve to keep the community in the dark. I think a community is better of if the choices are made in such a way that they stand up to scrutiny.

Also, I would like to ask all of you not to bombard people who disagree with disrespectful PMs, a part of the problem is that dissenters have been silenced previously, so lets not be as bad as the top level administrators and let everyone have their say, regardless if you agree with the content on not.

Regarding Refleax's response:
It's a step in the right direction. However, it lacks a bit about codifying rules that are easy to understand and the reasoning behind them explained. People should understand why the rules are rules, that way people are alot more likely to comply. And all admins should be able to cite the reasoning if challenged for it.
And it still fails get to the core of the poodle, as outlined in the post I quoted, i.e. the fact that FSE actually has to earn the respect now rather than assuming it as granted, earning the respect through being fair, following their own rules and generally behaving better when admining and managing the community.

You obviously missed the part where I resigned because of you and a few other admins acting as if the US admin team needs to be babysat, and that we are below you. Now I may be reading wrong, but I think a good portion of your post was indeed about community "standings". To add on to that you publicly "insulting", and yes, I do believe it was insulting, rather than helpful, is entirely opposite of how a proper admin should present himself. To add on to that even more, you spoke as a member of the community and as an admin, therefore representing the admin team as well. I clearly stated that I was speaking as myself and my post had no ties to the rest of the admin team. Finally don't tell me that I need to step back and think, because I already did just that, and I decided that since everyone treats us like shit, including you, an outstanding member of the community and a member of the admin team, I did not want to deal with such offensive people. I will use what you told me "if this post is indicitave of how you admin you might want to take a step back and think a bit", I already did just that, but you certainly have not, and it is for the best that you do. I find it ironic that the "EU admin team" was supposedly monitoring us when apparently you were the team that needed the monitoring, since it was indeed you, a EU admin, who has made the mistake of breaking several admin regulations, in public.
That is the last thing I will say on this matter.

[PrideofNi]

Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.

[Death by EMP]

Hekko, This wasn't a good way to handle it.
People should stop jumping on the band-wagon because it's cool to be against people, stirring up shit on this forums that has a player base of 60% minors is not a good idea, take it to a more private place if it is annoying you that much, I for one am not too happy about the 51st Locking, but it is a lot better to talk about it or do it in a more private way, this problem has just been tripled by everyone saying "Yeah go Hekko! Nice idea Bro" But still, the 51st is just a number a number out of a billion other options people could choose to make a name with. Now I am not siding with the developers or anyone, I am just pointing out that you are helping No-one by bitching about it on a public forum, and for god sake, putting a personal complaint about Melee into this is just silly, you don't like the melee, talk to someone, don't take the piss, It is so sad that it has come to this, the Developers never "Abandoned" us, it is just silly and childish to believe that.
Anyway, that is my opinion, take it as it is.

EDIT:
And get rid of all that "Revolution" Crap, it isn't helping anyone, stop trying to be hip and cool, Christ.

I wholeheartedly agree. I also agree with Ni on the Us administration subject.

[Deofuta]

Bai.

Hey Pride, just to fill you in, after some discussion we did choose to relax the ban on Craig/Hatake.

(and thank you for the support on the US side, I appreciate it and haven't been able to post recently to discuss it.)

[[60th]Valkyrie]

To me its quite straight forward. I dont know FSE or what happened in BETA so its probably pointless me commenting.

But honestly the NW community is small enough as it is we dont need these type of arguments. From a point of view of a person like me who just sticks to the game and doesn't really bother with the forums much I have to say since the beginning I have not noticed anything badly wrong.  Sure some of the admins probably abuse their powers / are to trigger happy on the ban finger and need to be reined in a bit but at the same time are threads like this really necessary? This will in all honestly achieve nothing and will only further damage the NW community.

I have never encountered any problem with the FSE / their admins and I have 1110 hours on the game (yes a bit sad  ).

FSE should rethink how they do things / appoint admins if what I have read is true but people in the community need to be less demanding / argumentative in my opinion, remember its a game chaps.... not real life and in my opinion FSE hasn't done anything to jepordize that fun and infact I am very grateful for them developing such an awesome mod... its not always easy admining a game as some people think. We are meant to be here for some fun so lets please keep this game going and not all start ripping each others faces off...

[MrTiki]

Spoiler

Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.

[close]

Thank you, finally someone who is speaking in a rational manner...

[Tiberius Decimus Maximus]

So I would ask, please lock this thread before this gets any more out of hand, its not needed and will just turn into a flame war / a conflict of opinions.

I don't see why sharing of opinions should be reined in. 

[Duuring]

So I would ask, please lock this thread before this gets any more out of hand, its not needed and will just turn into a flame war / a conflict of opinions.

I don't see why sharing of opinions should be reined in. 

It's no longer about sharing opinions, sadly. Things have been said, decisions have been made. There's, at this moment, nothing to be done, and we should lock this thread before people are saying stuff they shouldn't (In fact, they are already).

[Affjoris]

Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.

Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.

And there i was, thinking Pride was only able to comment with the word nub in it :p

Good post and well said, altough i have the feeling my posts didnt fall under your "worth reading tag".
Which might well be rightfully so, because altough i was trying to make a ligitimate point, i may have done so in a wrongly manner. Then again most of us did.

EDIT: Great, fucked up there didnt I. And my Ipad doesnt seem to want to delete the first quote...

[Tiberius Decimus Maximus]

So I would ask, please lock this thread before this gets any more out of hand, its not needed and will just turn into a flame war / a conflict of opinions.

I don't see why sharing of opinions should be reined in. 

It's no longer about sharing opinions, sadly. Things have been said, decisions have been made. There's, at this moment, nothing to be done, and we should lock this thread before people are saying stuff they shouldn't (In fact, they are already).

On the other hand, given the history of repression of community discourse on the given subjects, locking this thread would be a rather bad start to any "new era".

[[60th]Valkyrie]

The only reason why the thread should be locked is to stop flaming / insults between regiments thus causing rifts and damaging the game / community experience.

[JackieChan]

Ni, I think you are correct with most of your points.
Criticizing the US side may not have been the right thing to do, though he also didn't force that topic, but merely said that he had heard some things, so I wouldn't elaborate on the US administrations, since I haven't heard any NA players specifically voice their complaints about the US Administration.
As for the EU Administration I have also never really seen any injustice, since I seldomly frequent the Official Servers, though reading some of the posts here, the appointing of admins does seem quite biased. True, they are mostly well-known players, but not all of them and why would being well known make you a good admin. You can be on the server often and still have flaws, which would allow you to play on the server, but now admin it. Other players may not be on the servers often but would have the qualities which are necessary. So that point is in my view invalid.
The rest I can agree on.

Spoiler

Some kisses for you! 

[close]

[Millander]

Although much of it is silly its best to not lock the thread. Let people blow of their steam.

Already many of you folk have calmed down. Now I feel real progress can be made.

[Sanderos25]

Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.

No that was not the point... i suggest you read it again, the point is that people that really do an effort for this game get cracked down and people that get invited to join, raise eyebrows in the community