The community deserves better

[Death by EMP]

For the benefit of the people, I'll compile the list of grievances I find are rational in a simple list, and accompanied proposals on how to fix them. This may seem similar to the OP, but considering people have already strayed a considerable distance in page length from there, this may be helpful and accessible for newcomers, and those involved in the debate to keep their conversations on track. Let me know if there are any addendums you would like me to add, and I'll repost with the updated list if I find the grievance bears merit.

1. The selection process for Administrative Positions on the forums and for the servers is faulty, based too much on popularity, "veterancy" in the community, and favoritism on the part of the existing Administrative and Developer Staff. This brings in administrators who may display symptoms of personal indulgence and corruption, heavy-handedness, and hot-headedness.
-The solution would be a transparent reform of the way Administrators are picked. While they should not be community chosen, community input should be valued and put into legitimate consideration.

2. A continuation on the previous grievance, the appearance of nepotism on behalf of the staff, in particular Vincenzo, is deeply troubling in regards to the legitimacy of a 'professional', commercial company of any kind.
-Removal of administrator rights for those who benefit from nepotism should be immediate, regardless of ability. Corruption on the part of staff members should be seen as unacceptable.

3. The crackdowns on opinions and ideas from the community, including thread locking, mutes, bans permanent and temporary, and post deletion have made the FSE development and administrative staff quite infamous. It degrades its professionalism in the eyes of customers, and brings doubt into their seriousness and ability to carry projects through to completion, as well as satisfy community desires and improvements.
-Unban all those who have been banned solely due to voicing their concerns about the community, the staff, and issues with the game. The development staff should make an effort to show that community presented issues with gameplay, administrative rulings, or ideas for upcoming updates and games are appreciated, most importantly, giving equal attention to all well presented suggestions, with no favoritism in regards to community history or donations.

That is all that came to mind based on my viewing of the thread. Please let me know in a well presented post if there are any more grievances you would like added to the list, and I will duly add them shortly.

*EDIT*

Warning - while you were typing 36 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

...Oof.

I don't agree with your first bullet. I was pretty much a "nobody in a videogame" which as I said makes no sense, but I will just be speaking using your thinking process. Even without being well known, not in a big regiment and all this other stuff people think influence the admin choosings, I was still chosen and warmly welcomed into the team. You guys don't even know how the process goes because it is all behind the scenes.

[MrTiki]

If I might suggest, due to my neutral stance on this topic, I am willing to moderate/host talks between FSE and Hekko. I feel we should get to the bottom of each side's arguments without outside interference before continuing this discussion.

[Affjoris]

 I don't agree with your first bullet. I was pretty much a "nobody in a videogame" which as I said makes no sense, but I will just be speaking using your thinking process. Even without being well known, not in a big regiment and all this other stuff people think influence the admin choosings, I was still chosen and warmly welcomed into the team. You guys don't even know how the process goes because it is all behind the scenes.
[/quote]

Well maybe it shoudnt be.

[av3ng3r]

I don't agree with your first bullet. I was pretty much a "nobody in a videogame" which as I said makes no sense, but I will just be speaking using your thinking process. Even without being well known, not in a big regiment and all this other stuff people think influence the admin choosings, I was still chosen and warmly welcomed into the team. You guys don't even know how the process goes because it is all behind the scenes.

That is the problem which you apparently fail to see.

[Vorlen]

For the benefit of the people, I'll compile the list of grievances I find are rational in a simple list, and accompanied proposals on how to fix them. This may seem similar to the OP, but considering people have already strayed a considerable distance in page length from there, this may be helpful and accessible for newcomers, and those involved in the debate to keep their conversations on track. Let me know if there are any addendums you would like me to add, and I'll repost with the updated list if I find the grievance bears merit.

1. The selection process for Administrative Positions on the forums and for the servers is faulty, based too much on popularity, "veterancy" in the community, and favoritism on the part of the existing Administrative and Developer Staff. This brings in administrators who may display symptoms of personal indulgence and corruption, heavy-handedness, and hot-headedness.
-The solution would be a transparent reform of the way Administrators are picked. While they should not be community chosen, community input should be valued and put into legitimate consideration.

2. A continuation on the previous grievance, the appearance of nepotism on behalf of the staff, in particular Vincenzo, is deeply troubling in regards to the legitimacy of a 'professional', commercial company of any kind.
-Removal of administrator rights for those who benefit from nepotism should be immediate, regardless of ability. Corruption on the part of staff members should be seen as unacceptable.

3. The crackdowns on opinions and ideas from the community, including thread locking, mutes, bans permanent and temporary, and post deletion have made the FSE development and administrative staff quite infamous. It degrades its professionalism in the eyes of customers, and brings doubt into their seriousness and ability to carry projects through to completion, as well as satisfy community desires and improvements.
-Unban all those who have been banned solely due to voicing their concerns about the community, the staff, and issues with the game. The development staff should make an effort to show that community presented issues with gameplay, administrative rulings, or ideas for upcoming updates and games are appreciated, most importantly, giving equal attention to all well presented suggestions, with no favoritism in regards to community history or donations.

That is all that came to mind based on my viewing of the thread. Please let me know in a well presented post if there are any more grievances you would like added to the list, and I will duly add them shortly.

*EDIT*

Warning - while you were typing 36 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

...Oof.

I don't agree with your first bullet. I was pretty much a "nobody in a videogame" which as I said makes no sense, but I will just be speaking using your thinking process. Even without being well known, not in a big regiment and all this other stuff people think influence the admin choosings, I was still chosen and warmly welcomed into the team. You guys don't even know how the process goes because it is all behind the scenes.

I know the process, i have been denied/ignored 3 times before Hancock was head admin. I believe i could have been a good admin, but by the time someone ( i hope at leat) who trusted me was in a position to effect that, i was done with the offical servers as the gameplay is shoddy compared to the old days.

Good candidates get continuously ignored. I am not suggesting this will never happen, but the less it does is preferable.

[Viktor 90th]

Gentlemen, We asked for change. and didn't get it. that's all, just you all are now obsessed with the new popularity contest

[Xeroth]

and dat

Warning - while you were typing 24 new replies has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

[JackieChan]

Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   

They should have an interview process that lasts a week or so.

He did say, we would nominate them, so I don't get your point.

I personally do not frequent the Official Servers often, though from what I hear things have not been going well. As for some forum issues, I also think or rather though, that they were not being dealt with properly.

Refleax's post is in my eyes a satisfying step towards agreement.

There is one point I would like to add however which has already been mentioned, but I will nevertheless bring it back to mind.
There should be a poll or something of that sort, in which the community can decide who they want to keep as admins and who should lose their power. This should apply for most current admins, however some people even if disagreeable are necessary and thus should be excluded from the poll.

As for Death by EMP's earlier post, all I can say is Hekko is not someone who needs to be someone special. He has done tons for the community and has at least made the EU part of NW a lot more fun. He also clearly mentioned that he had HEARD of some things from the US part of NW, thus implicating that here, he is not certain. This evidently ruffled your feathers, eventhough it shouldn't have.

This is at least one suggestion and only MY opinion.Thanks for the answer Refleax.

[Hekko]

I rarely get involved in this community, except for a few isolated jaunts into Mount and Blade: Napoleonic Wars, but recent events have caught my attention here. And while I get why there is some internal conflict within the "revolutionaries", as it were, I think it is valuable to take a step back and marvel at this:

"The main administrator of the forum actually made his girlfriend an administrator."

For those who defend them on behalf of the fact that they made the game, well, you would have been right a couple years ago when the group was a non-commercial modding group. However, they are now a fully independent, commercial game development studio, and they should put on their big boy britches, mature to criticism, and act like it.

That's my two cents. I'll be generous to myself and call it reason. 'Tis easy to get caught up in all this, so I thought I'd share my thoughts, is all. Hopefully I will be allowed to continue doing so in the days ahead. Thank you for your consideration.

There is alot I could respond too, but I think this is probably sums up the core of the problem the best.

FSE never has made the transition between being a group of people giving away a mod for free, to a commercial company. I hosted a party last night, a friend brought me a bottle a Galliano. I was grateful for it. The week before I hosted a separate party, I went to the store and bought a bottle of Galliano, I wasn't grateful towards the salesman because I paid for the product fair and square. Vince cannot assume that we owe him gratitude for making the game, because we have now payed for it, so he therefore has no gratitude to draw upon for people to turn a blind eye to his faux-pas. The obvious solution being to act up and not commit faux-pas.

FSE has not realised this and before they do there won't be any true change, because everything else is a symptom of this.

As Vorlen says I am not on a witchhunt for the admins, those who have overstepped their boundries know it, those who have not should not feel targeted. Death by EMP, if the way you responded to this is in anyway indicitave of how you admin you might want to take a step back and think a bit, because LittleGuy's response is by far better, more efficient and befitting of an admin. I am breaking two rules, the ridicolous solidarity rule and the secrecy rule, both of which serve to keep the community in the dark. I think a community is better of if the choices are made in such a way that they stand up to scrutiny.

Also, I would like to ask all of you not to bombard people who disagree with disrespectful PMs, a part of the problem is that dissenters have been silenced previously, so lets not be as bad as the top level administrators and let everyone have their say, regardless if you agree with the content on not.

Regarding Refleax's response:
It's a step in the right direction. However, it lacks a bit about codifying rules that are easy to understand and the reasoning behind them explained. People should understand why the rules are rules, that way people are alot more likely to comply. And all admins should be able to cite the reasoning if challenged for it.
And it still fails get to the core of the poodle, as outlined in the post I quoted, i.e. the fact that FSE actually has to earn the respect now rather than assuming it as granted, earning the respect through being fair, following their own rules and generally behaving better when admining and managing the community.

[Budzinskiy]

Stand up for your rights!

[Tiberius Decimus Maximus]

-The solution would be a transparent reform of the way Administrators are picked. While they should not be community chosen, community input should be valued and put into legitimate consideration.

I don't agree with your first bullet. I was pretty much a "nobody in a videogame" which as I said makes no sense, but I will just be speaking using your thinking process. Even without being well known, not in a big regiment and all this other stuff people think influence the admin choosings, I was still chosen and warmly welcomed into the team. You guys don't even know how the process goes because it is all behind the scenes.

Wanted to highlight that for you. And based on your behavior earlier, and what a fellow server administrator mentioned earlier as well, hotheadedness and varying levels of corruption are present. Whether you indulge in the latter, I am not qualified to say, though based on what others have said you are not innately corrupt. However, your response to the opinions of the community was inflammatory, and did not properly give respect to valid points, as well as insulting a fellow administrator who was kind, and likely wise enough, to raise the issue for the entire community so long-repressed opinions could be aired.

[Vorlen]

Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   

They should have an interview process that lasts a week or so.

He did say, we would nominate them, so I don't get your point.

I personally do not frequent the Official Servers often, though from what I hear things have not been going well. As for some forum issues, I also think or rather though, that they were not being dealt with properly.

Refleax's post is in my eyes a satisfying step towards agreement.

There is one point I would like to add however which has already been mentioned, but I will nevertheless bring it back to mind.
There should be a poll or something of that sort, in which the community can decide who they want to keep as admins and who should lose their power. This should apply for most current admins, however some people even if disagreeable are necessary and thus should be excluded from the poll.

As for Death by EMP's earlier post, all I can say is Hekko is not someone who needs to be someone special. He has done tons for the community and has at least made the EU part of NW a lot more fun. He also clearly mentioned that he had HEARD of some things from the US part of NW, thus implicating that here, he is not certain. This evidently ruffled your feathers, eventhough it shouldn't have.

This is at least one suggestion and only MY opinion.Thanks for the answer Refleax.

Have to disagree with you on the poll idea Jackie ma bro. General community polls to decide something like that is just as open to abuse and scandal, as we saw with the 'Champions of europe'. Perhaps i'm fucking over the solution, but a community initiative, based upoin respected, transparant and fair leaders is preferable than an absolute democracy. In which anyone can vote to sway things.

[CHARLES111MAC]

The name of regiments will always be up for grabs if a regiments disband. So i think its fair to say that anyone takes it.

[Scorpia]

Wow, I didn't think this would go this far. Lay off trying to get Vincenzo to speak, plus I do agree with Hekko. But I find it incredibly stupid how people are posting popcorn gifs or memes I also find it stupid how people are making a signature for this. I agree with USE4life, the best thing right now would be unban James Grant/Jezza, Daniel, Biggun, Craig and all the other people whom were banned. I do like the idea of a bunch of people being  representatives. But in a way I think it'll be another Champion of Europe fight sorta thing. So it'll be good to have them in a more secure area as you said.

But really, I speak for myself and maybe some other members of this community, what would make everyone happy, is the 51st rule removal. Which has been granted, and the unban of everyone we said, Biggun, James, Dan, Craig etc etc...
And the fix of the administrator recruitment and punishment.

Oh, and stop bloody sending abusive messages to people just because of their options, leave Jacob alone!


EDIT: Warning - while you were typing 10 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. Bloody hell.

[Xeroth]

Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.

Crunchie.