Messages

1

The Mess Hall / Re: Historia Continuum - Christmas Update

« on: January 04, 2021, 08:03:39 pm »

Wow, amazing work Tardet & Tiberias! I am glad that the format is still going and keeps evolving. This gave a real pang of nostalgia for all the time I spent on NW back in the days.

2

Napoleonic Wars League / Re: Napoleonic Wars League

« on: June 26, 2014, 04:45:33 pm »

Final decision: 5:5

As I was no referee, I had no right to cancel this round. Thus, the last round (that was camped, it was very clear), was the 11th and does not take into account.

Some last things: Take ref's decisions seriously. You don't have to like these decisions, only to follow them. Also, if refs are unsure about rules, they can ask Bever or me before the match.

Your input and bevers input should be treated the same in that case. Now you let bevers erroneus and uninformed input of as not overruling, where as yours was which is ridiculous. The medium of input would be rather irrelevant, whether it's game chat, steam or VoIP for that matter.

Besides you have evans point. And your comments were not after the match, this call was after the match though.

3

Napoleonic Wars League / Re: Napoleonic Wars League

« on: June 26, 2014, 04:14:21 pm »

About the rulebreak regarding the camping. It's an ambigous rule. Post incident though, the rules state we have to move to engage the enemy, if the enemy moved to the hill we are obliged to move there. If anything both sides were a bit dubious about the rule in the preceeding rounds, since the distance was kept.

Clearly for the rest the 14e are out of tune with the current rule enforcement policy. And as such they are constructing arguments based on feeling rather than precedent and the rules. The fic comment I made was just to illustrate that they benefitted from the ref too as opposed to the alternative.

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Napoleonic Wars League / Re: Napoleonic Wars League

« on: June 26, 2014, 07:06:49 am »

There is litterally no reason to insist on the 14e getting a 5-5 out of this than you feel that they were hard done by it and it being a shame to change that.

The truth is they fucked up, they fucked up badly.

They were punished for bringing someone with the wrong class. They unilatterally went and forcibly changed the ruling. They fucked up, it's blatantly obvious that this will cause trouble. You will get a red card if you pick up the ball with your hands in football, regardless of where on the pitch you are standing.

Besides, the presence of the referee savd their bacon in fic situations. It got ignored and they got a reset when post match punishment would have made a 5-5 into 7-3ish.

5

Napoleonic Wars League / Re: Napoleonic Wars League

« on: June 23, 2014, 09:56:38 pm »

and would have been in melee if he would have stayed in formation.

But he wasn't, and Bever and me decided that there was nothing against the rules.

The officer aiming on the other hand is a ridiculous thing to dock points for, and quite ironic that you out of all people do it considering the Nr.24s last match against you.

I don't see why it is ridicolous, do you want to say Fungus did that on purpose? I implied he didn't. It is still a rulebreak in the end, even if we do that. If we do this next time, appeal it and you can lean back and watch how the rules will be inconsistently forced upon us.


And now for the last time:
NO RESETS ON OWN BEHALF IF NO REFEREE IS ON THE MATCH.
EVEN IF BOTH REGIMENTS AGREE ON IT, WE DON'T CARE.

If anyone is ever resetting a round again we will cede Points as a penalty.

So with your interpretation you could technically have a swarm of people all over the place, firing as long as they line up and none of them are in melee at the time when they are firing. That's hardly an LB any longer.

Great, so you will remove points even if a consensus is reached.

6

Napoleonic Wars League / Re: Napoleonic Wars League

« on: June 23, 2014, 06:35:28 pm »

Match 77y - Nr.24

There was an appeal from Nr24, based on the following video:

Megabernas Stream

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Appeal on 4:30 is based on FiC - But there was none. Svensson did not reach the 77y line and did not hit with his sword. BUT the front is still spreadig out, all in melee position and bloodlust, while the rest of the line is still shooting. This could at most be considered as fire out of formation.


Appeal on 7:30 is based on FiC too, but here again Svensson did not hit the lonesome guy who's running away. FiC would be at the moment this single guy is in melee, where we come to a difficult situation in which I will try some could-be-examples to you: Would this single 77y guy, lets call him Guy, be in melee because he was stabbed or he blocked, 77y would be techically in melee - although the actual Line was in formation and ready to shoot. But then again, at the moment where Guy is dead, and 77y is still in this formation or moved further away to position themselves in a line again, the charge would be over, and ranged combat is again allowed. If anyone does not understand why, I can explain this later if needed. 

To get back on topic again, 7:30 was not a rule violation.


We decided to look through the whole video (as we always do when there is a complaint/appeal with video) and found some other situations that I would like to take into account too.

At 15:50, FiC by Nr.24. A very close one, but still FiC. Since it was so close, we will not take this actually into account for ceding points.

At 21:25, Officer aim. No need to further explain this.

In the end, we decided to give Nr.24 a round for the issue at 4:30. Then again a round is given to 77y because of the issue at 21:25.

Game result will stay at  Nr.24 3:7 77y.

Right, lets have a look at this shall we.

4.30 self explanatory as you saw.

7.30 is quite clearly against the rules. I would argue firing in the charge, because the lone guy gets cut off, and would have been in melee if he would have stayed in formation. So the Nr.24 line clearly engaged the 77y line because the 77y line had to break up in order to deal with the proximity of the Nr.24, which for me would be a counter charge rather than anything else, making it a FiC. Even if you (erroneously to be honest) insist on the fact that it was not FiC it would still amount to line splitting which is also against the rules.

The officer aiming on the other hand is a ridiculous thing to dock points for, and quite ironic that you out of all people do it considering the Nr.24s last match against you.

Referees are an absolutely crucial point to have in a tournament. The fact is, with all due respect, the hosts are incapable of dealing with the post-facto complaints, we have even been told to be polite and not press the issue because the opponents were a worse regiment, and we should hand them the round... (Credit where credit is due, they would have won that particular round officer aiming or not, but then again they were officer aiming throughout the LB (I believe I was shot 5-6 times during the LB dying about half of he time), so I feel that there should be some form of consequence to the aggregate offense)

The rules should be the same for everyone, and enforced the same for everyone. The point is, the current set-up encourages people to cheat with impunity and then lawyer their way out of it after the event because a) they did not win b) some things can apparently be ridiculously hard to prove post-facto even with video or c) it isn't considered as a major influence on the round.

Wow. Such GG. I just told you to show me good proofs. We won't change scores if the proofs aren't good enough. That's all I said. Tell it right or don't do it.
I said it would be polite to give the only round you lost to your enemy, but not that I won't deal with the issue.

Quite. To be fair you only saw these screenshots today, yet still they do demonstrate that I was shot several times in before the round we appealed, so it wasn't just a one round occurrence, and we had been patient with it up until that point.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=237086955
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=237087067

Secondly, this is the video you requested:


The camera turns and I am out of the frame at 2.02 and I am shot at 2.04. As seen before the camera pans away I am very close to their line, so it cannot really be a stray bullet, I am at one of the far ends of the line. Sure, I guess we technically could have formed a moshpit around me in 2 seconds so that I would get shot and appeal the round. But it does not seem quite that plausible. Especially when you consider the track-record of the officer targeting. (It happened in other rounds as well, but I did not screenshot those, and I do not know if we still have video for that).

The round that got docked from us should be docked because of officer aiming should be docked because of the FiC assuming the hardline approach. Meaning that the score would still land at 7-3, which it in all fairness should be.

the 15.50 round should also be docked from us. Based on the FiC.

There's a huge issue here though. Not so much the score it landed at, which I have said is fair. The problem is that you are extremely inconsistent in your arguments and your application of rules. The claim that 15.50 was minor is a bit preposterous as is that 7.30 was something completely fine with the rules.

The fact that a bona fide accidental officer death at relatively long distance, with plenty of time to do the reset before melee or indeed the round was tipping a certain way is a certain loss is also preposterous. It just incentivices trying to get shot as the officer to get free rounds.

The whole hardline approach is as inconsistent as the hardline denial approach you had going and it creates an atmosphere where you do not know what to expect in the terms of rules, and I have a nagging feeling that the outcome of appeals is based less on the actual facts of the case and more on the parties of the case.

When the wrong reasons lead to the right outcome it's as much a problem as if the right reasons lead to the wrong outcome.

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Napoleonic Wars League / Re: Napoleonic Wars League

« on: June 20, 2014, 01:52:47 am »

Dear utterly despised persistent complainers,

Kindly take your withering levels of complaints and dispense of them. It's terribly mundane to come onto this thread to read about recent matches, only to see bickering left, right and centre. I believe that the NWL league would benefit greatly if there was some sort of separate discussion thread, or perhaps change the rules so that any complaints between regiments in regards to rule breaks must be solved in private with the event administrators.

In addition to that, having a mandatory referee would probably solve most of the league's problems, you should look into it.

Much love and eternal kisses,

Merfie.


PS. Price, your poor grammar and sheer levels of boorishness within your posts is staggering.

Spoiler

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Dear utterly despised consistent meta-complainers.

Your ideas to conduct things in private are utterly ridiculous. At the moment where decisions are put under scrutiny there is no such thing as consistency. Do you really believe that more consistency will be achieved when there is no fear of having decisions scrutinized?

A consistent approach to complaints and rulings would solve all but a few problems. Even more so than refs, albeit mandatory refs would go a long way.

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Det skandinaviske/-a forumet / Re: Svenska Politik Tråden..

« on: June 19, 2014, 03:28:18 pm »

Åkesson kommer aldrig låta SD hamna med i regeringen, betyder att han måste göra något föf att lyfta sin partiledarlön. Lets face it, Åkesson har hittat ett bekvämt sätt att meva på skattebetalarnas pengar (ironiskt när han snklagar invandrarna för det) så inte en chans att hn skulle sluta och faktiskt börja jobba.

Champagne ska det dock vara! Har varit och handlat lite på flygfältets taxfree butik så att säga, hehe.

9

Napoleonic Wars League / Re: Napoleonic Wars League

« on: June 18, 2014, 06:51:43 pm »

Every officer knows exactly that FiC applies even if 1 man is in melee. It has been like that for the past 2 seasons.

@Evan: You say a kill of 1 guy does not affect the outcome of the round? That is just plain bullshit. Of course it influences it. It is 1 man less on the field. We went from numerical advantage to equality, not even mentioning the confusion it cause on TS, as others have said before. If we follow your logic it would be okay to shoot at least 1 man every round while out of formation "because it doesn't affect the outcome". Logic much?

And there has been consistency. Only 2-3 rounds earlier 17e shot another two people while being engaged in melee (1 guy got killed in melee before those two kills IIRC). But because we won the round it was not taken into account. If the referees would be inconsistent we would have gotten that round too because it was a fucking blatant rulebreak (nearly 5 seconds after being in melee and still shot).

I am not saying 17e did it on purpose and as you can hear on their video Posh (I believe it is him) even says to stop firing, but if his men don't listen then they should be punished for it. Rules are rules, and have to be enforced.

That's not officer aiming. They aim behind your officer, you do a reverse collumn and the fire order is given. You basically ran into their fire. If you'd have kept on marching, Hekko wouldn't have been shot.

So much for the rules being the rules, eh?


Not to metion the infraction Evan brings up for instance, that is still to be resolved for us.

As for the 92nd people claiming that this incident really fucked you up. The thing here is that there was every possibility that the guy closest to the line would have been shot making the last few shots perfectly legal. Sure it's fucking annoying, sure it breaks focus, and it sure as hell did not make you lose.


Gaz also has a valid point, this kind of late stopping of shooting is almost more the rule than the exception these days where pardon seems to be given to offenders due to lag, slow reflexes or whatever. Making the issue here not so much about the enforcement of the rule, but rather the fact that there has been and still is a completely different threshold in other battles.

The number of seasons is not really a valid argument either. In the NWEC we managed to solve issues without causing upsets despite only having a pilot season and one real season behind us. Consistency and predictability of outcomes can be delivered to a reasonable standard no matter what, and this certainly is a situation that would have been foreseen as arising.

10

Napoleonic Wars League / Re: Napoleonic Wars League

« on: June 18, 2014, 12:50:56 am »

Of course it's impossible to know what the effect of the FiC was. However, it's one player in 30+ that are alive, and this certainly isn't MM where Ward could take out a whole line on his own. The 17e were more convincing in the melee that round by far, you were by no means a pushover, but you weren't close when it came to winning the round.

Secondly, the infraction is small in the sense that it's firing that is seized a second or so too late, which quite frankly happens in many LBs. The 17e did that against us, I am fairly certain we did it against them, we got on just fine, and neither side of us started to try to lawyer rounds from the other party on this basis.

Fair enough if you intend to force a harsh policy on this, however, be consistent, and be consistent with what you have done as well. At the moment it really shoots the league in the foot, because there is a different de facto set of rules in play every single match, meaning that you cannot get used to and optimize playing a certain way. Hell, you can't even know what way you should play at the time because you do not know what mode the judges will be in when they review the case.


Also, more importantly, what evan said about the round being discounted vs. shifted to the 92nd is very true and shows quite conclusively the issue about inconsistency. Hell, we have still not received a judgement on the complaint, even though it was months ago and it would have been a case of checking the logs for the judges to conclusively see that we were right.

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Napoleonic Wars League / Re: Napoleonic Wars League

« on: June 17, 2014, 11:09:44 pm »

The major problem here seems to be that the judges are not consistent in the way they apply the rules. There are times when they offer to remove a round, but not give it to the enemy, there are times where they give rounds to the enemy for the most minor infraction. There is no clear line that would give any predictability or consistency to these decisions which severely undermines the faith in and integrity of the league.

While obviously incidents are different as Harrier says, however, there can be orders of magnitude to breaches. And previously more severe breaches have been treated as either a) inconclusive or b) insignificant to the outcome of the round, and action has been denied. So there is a problem of inconsistency in this decision.

Honestly, the effect of the infraction is very minor. And if someone bothers to look at our match against the 33rd for instance, they shot in the charge at least in the 5th and the 7th round (to a degree) and yet still no effort was made there. Sure we won, but those infractions were far larger than this one for instance.

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Napoleonic Wars League / Re: Napoleonic Wars League

« on: June 17, 2014, 06:29:36 pm »

Idiots will be idiots. And as long as such behaviour is tolerated by the regiment there is not gonna be any change, unfortunately.

Are you talking about yourself in third person Hadhod? No but more seriously. It's quite obvious that what's going on here is banter between Smyky and Zzethh, both are rather "banterous" people, and Zzethh hangs around TS. Things I am fairly sure you are aware of Hadhod.

Really, the only one behaving a bit badly is in fact you, because you are using a situation to slander people you dislike to further your personal agenda and your personal dislikes.

Smyky does raise a valid point though. The community is trying to maintain a standard of respectability etc. etc. but all it is is a thinly veiled license to hate eachother. Before people were more or less able to speak to eachother, and it wasn't always a perfectly polished response, but people still got along. Now people will throw a hissy fit about some banter in a match they were not even part of because it does not adhere to their personal code of conduct that they try to project onto the whole world. The irony being that these people will still protect their own and close ranks and protect their own when they do cross the line they themselves have set up.

For instance, Hadhod steaming about some regiments when his bro from the 92nd goes about belittling someone who is happy he made referee:

I love how no-one noticed that i became a referee

I think its more of a no-one cares tbh mate.

More importantly, I heard that the score between 92 and 17e got modified to 5-5. I think this is news that would warrant an explanation on the forum seeing that it's a first grade match. Also a part of the explanation is hilarious where the refs burden the 17e with the Nr.24 spectators presence and charge them with making sure that the specs are respectful. I mean, if the 92nd do really care that much, why cannot the 92nd just act themselves?

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Competitive EU Events/Tournaments / Re: Napoleonic Wars European Cup 2014

« on: June 13, 2014, 08:14:44 pm »

I am on the boat to the Åland Islands when the match is going on, saddly.

You're on the boat to Finland.

De quoi?

Tu es sur le bateau pour la Finlande.

Mais, ce n'est pas vraie! Je suis a Londres en route en Finlande par avion!

L'avion c'est tellement "déjà vu" Hekko 

L'avenir c'est le deltaplane.



No fake Hekko, do that, and takes pictures. Plenty of pictures

When Finland wins the world cup, I might consider it....

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Competitive EU Events/Tournaments / Re: Napoleonic Wars European Cup 2014

« on: June 11, 2014, 05:43:52 pm »

I am on the boat to the Åland Islands when the match is going on, saddly.

You're on the boat to Finland.

De quoi?

Tu es sur le bateau pour la Finlande.

Mais, ce n'est pas vraie! Je suis a Londres en route en Finlande par avion!

15

Competitive EU Events/Tournaments / Re: Napoleonic Wars European Cup 2014

« on: June 11, 2014, 12:16:59 pm »

I am on the boat to the Åland Islands when the match is going on, saddly.

You're on the boat to Finland.

De quoi?