Author Topic: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]  (Read 13859 times)

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Offline Fietta

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2023, 03:15:55 pm »
Wait, renaissance is allowed to play?

Let's not pretend to feel good winning a rookie tournament with a signup like that

Isn't that what you do in RT though?  ???

skill issue

Offline LEVIS

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2023, 03:18:17 pm »
Anyway in the state of NW now, its almost impossible to make a truly rookie tourney, people need to consider this as more like a low/mid tier tourney more than anything

Offline Desant

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2023, 03:20:49 pm »
Regarding me and my Turkish players: irrespective of their years of experience - they play far worse, including me, than almost any player on the Lycoris team.  Where almost any player in their squad will be stronger than almost any player from the entire tournament.

That's why you should read this post.


You can't call a player a "rookie" if he's just been playing poorly for years.

Offline Vegi.

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2023, 03:25:42 pm »
Wait, renaissance is allowed to play?

Let's not pretend to feel good winning a rookie tournament with a signup like that
stop complaining about everything freak
Stop looking at my posts Fietta #RentFree

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Offline Fietta

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2023, 03:37:35 pm »
Wait, renaissance is allowed to play?

Let's not pretend to feel good winning a rookie tournament with a signup like that
stop complaining about everything freak

You follow me around too much

Anyway in the state of NW now, its almost impossible to make a truly rookie tourney, people need to consider this as more like a low/mid tier tourney more than anything

I suppose so, though there was plenty of rookie teams signed up for this one

Offline Vegi.

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2023, 03:40:53 pm »
Nice ad hominem
Learn how to use arguments and go get laid lmao
Stop looking at my posts Fietta #RentFree

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Offline LEVIS

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2023, 03:47:35 pm »
Anyway in the state of NW now, its almost impossible to make a truly rookie tourney, people need to consider this as more like a low/mid tier tourney more than anything

I suppose so, though there was plenty of rookie teams signed up for this one
tbh every single team had at least 1 guy that isn't a true rookie or that people could have complained about
and how can we qualify what is a real rookie?

Offline Scottish Unicorn

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2023, 03:51:05 pm »
Tbf our team had a player with less than 100 hours and a player with 5.8k hours.

The former did outpeform the latter.

Offline Trexons

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2023, 04:28:55 pm »
I honestly don't understand why we should make a tournament for beginners and weak teams if we allow powerful players to participate in such a low level tournament.
how do you define a powerful player?

Offline Fietta

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2023, 05:11:36 pm »
I honestly don't understand why we should make a tournament for beginners and weak teams if we allow powerful players to participate in such a low level tournament.
how do you define a powerful player?

anyone with an RT prefix

Offline R1bazZz

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2023, 05:13:00 pm »
 Lets be fair, this is probably the closest we can get to a "Rookie tournament" there are not that many players left on this game that are willing to play Tournaments, i mean fair play to teams like SF that managed to fill 3 different teams but eitherways they needed some other playerrs on the team who acording to the ppl complaining wherent clearly not rookies.
I speak for Lusitanos when i say that if i wasnt allowed to be on the roster they probably wouldnt have signed up because they wouldnt have the will to play as it would be just a mess as for many of them was their first tourney and also first time being admins. That might have happened to other teams aswell. Don't get me wrong i totally think some teams where clearly not rookies but i also can see Stoiki's side about getting constant complains of ppl crying over and over about this it might get rlly frustrating when ur the one whos hosting the tourney and want everything to go nice. Eitherways ppl will always complain and in my eyes we will never get a 100% rookie tourney and i am not blaming nobody. I think yesterdays tourney was nice and fast, my team had alot of fun after all we finally did it out of group stage, i hope in the future more tourneys like this will be done !
« Last Edit: February 13, 2023, 05:15:57 pm by R1bazZz »
Also @Ribaz. I think you can take Zenon's title as biggest statue
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Giorno

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2023, 05:16:14 pm »
The low IQ conversation is "Well the tournament says rookie, and X isnt a rookie because he's played for years, therefore...". The issue wasn't so much the strongest players in the tournament, just that many of the "top players" were allowed to group together and form "stacks" like Renaissance, Stoiki's own team and to a lesser extent Lycoris. There are legitimate rookies in the comp scene (and this tourney), however, there's no way to make a tournament specifically catering to them on an individual basis without purposefully moderating teams - not so much players - who are/aren't allowed to participate. This way, you can ensure that teams including players like Raime, Fluxxy, Lebrun and Vegi are not all on the same team when the rest playing field clearly doesn't come close to the same amount solidity. Some of those players should be playing in these kinds of tournaments, just not all together.

So, organisers should just scrap the "Rookie" label and stick to "Low" or "Low/Mid Tier", then monitor the teams forming if they care about a competitive experience for all participants.

Incoming essay:

Some have unintentionally alluded to the following problem that came about in this tournament, so I'll speak on it here. Stoiki is free to correct me here, as this is my interpretation of the whole thing.

When he started organising this tournament, he explicitly stated his intention to assess every team on both an (1) individual and (2) relative basis. Stoiki was purposefully (1) not allowing certain individuals to play who he deemed too strong for the tournament altogether (typical for this type of tournament), and (2) relative to other teams who had signed up already, or prospective teams he personally knew were about to sign up, he was effectively creating an "skill range" in which participating teams had to fit. For example, if Stoiki assigned a 5 to Assassins (referential "average" team), then ,from what I understand, he was planning to allow teams 5±2 to play, meaning the skill gaps between teams was reduced. A disparity would (and did) still exist, which is a reality in all tournaments, but the gap between the best and worst team would be 4 units difference (3 vs 7) instead of say 8 (1 vs 9). This seemed like a good idea to me, especially considering the choke rate within Low-Mid tier teams meant the possibly for upsets was a real thing under this more balanced playing field. This is also the only way you can ensure true rookies have a chance to properly experience a competitive tourney instead of getting wiped out immediately 0-4 in the groupstage, as they also likely play alongside other rookies by no fault of their own.

So everything was all well and good until he essentially loosened the restrictions, adding BlueWinx to his own team, allowing the Renaissance team with multiple competent "Low-Mid Tiers", and effectively creating a top-heavy, predictable tournament with little room for upsets. Look at the Semi-Finals and try to tell me you didn't expect those exact four teams to be there.

The major issue is this: when Stoiki loosened the restrictions, this wasn't explicitly stated to all teams from my understanding. So, some teams didn't improve their rosters (or even know they could) despite other rosters adding better players, causing them to climb above the prior 5±2 threshold for a team. Weak teams no longer stood a chance of exiting groups or getting past the RO16 once this had occurred. Stoiki's team and Renaissance were both IMO well over that 7 threshold alone, and Lycoris probably edged it a bit.
If you don't agree, look at the number of 5-0s and 5-1s during this tournament from the groupstage. Quite a lot for a low skilled tournament where players typically struggle to close rounds properly, and end up winning 5-2/3 despite an otherwise dominant performance.

The tournament was run well, so good on Stoiki for that, but let's not pretend this was a "competitive" tournament for the majority of players when it was initially designed to be so. We already have good examples of similar Rookie tournaments that were far more interesting and competitive for all of the participants (see the entirety of EGS L2 S3).

Cringe post complete  8)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2023, 05:25:32 pm by Giorno »

Offline Fietta

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2023, 05:16:23 pm »
I speak for Lusitanos when i say that if i wasnt allowed to be on the roster they probably wouldnt have signed up because they wouldnt have the will to play as it would be just a mess as for many of them was their first tourney and also first time being admins.

That's a poor excuse, whole point of a rookie tournament is that it's noobs vs noobs and messy play would come naturally. I don't mind 1 person who's 'decent' on a roster, but only if they're coaching from spectator, they have no reason to play.

Offline R1bazZz

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2023, 05:19:19 pm »
I speak for Lusitanos when i say that if i wasnt allowed to be on the roster they probably wouldnt have signed up because they wouldnt have the will to play as it would be just a mess as for many of them was their first tourney and also first time being admins.

That's a poor excuse, whole point of a rookie tournament is that it's noobs vs noobs and messy play would come naturally. I don't mind 1 person who's 'decent' on a roster, but only if they're coaching from spectator, they have no reason to play.
My team yesterday had exactly 5 players, i had internet problems and we had to wait abit so i could come back, eitherways it wasnt a match decider as for the most part they did the picks and i was actually really impressed, as i said Fietta i agree when saying some of the teams where clearly not rookies but i can't do nothing about it
Also @Ribaz. I think you can take Zenon's title as biggest statue
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Offline Vegi.

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Re: Rookie Tourney [ 12th of February]
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2023, 05:21:55 pm »
Make sure you all ignore Giorno’s nice paragraph that explains everything and which makes perfectly sense
Stop looking at my posts Fietta #RentFree

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