Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 519998 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Edwin

  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1709
  • I killed Toffee
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #405 on: March 19, 2017, 11:36:41 am »
Yes, I'm sure the policies they will vote for will be entirely secular. . .


 

Offline StevenChilton

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 1882
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #406 on: March 19, 2017, 12:51:46 pm »
Yeah so? If a large part of the population is Muslim they have a right to exert political influence. Even if it is a small part of the population they have a right to do that. If you do not like it, do not vote for their Parties. That is how democrazy works...

In other words you embrace the fact that a group that finds it very difficult to integrate into Western society and generally holds illiberal views is going to exert significant political influence in the future. Okay, sure. The majority of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, can't say I look forward to political initiatives in that regard (not gay myself) but that's how democracy works and they have a right to try to persecute gay people if that's what they want.

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #407 on: March 19, 2017, 01:04:26 pm »
This is mostly being driven by migration levels rather than fertility rates. We'll see in time whether the birthrates decline to native levels-I doubt they will because they are generally among the least integrated migrants groups, and Pew seem to think they won't decline that dramatically, but who knows. I think they will go down a bit but not to contemporary native European levels.

Figures show an incredible fast decline in birth rates under immigrants yet you still doubt it based on how you feel about them. Acceptance of LGBT's is also increasing steadily. We are changing their views, not the other way around. At least in my country. Maybe the United Kingdom is just fucked up, who knows.

Offline Olafson

  • FSE Developer
  • ****
  • Posts: 3995
  • #friendsforever
    • View Profile
  • Nick: FSE_Olafson
  • Side: Union
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #408 on: March 19, 2017, 01:52:42 pm »
Unlike other people I can actually accept people that are of different opinion than me. If they win the election and get their policies out, that is fine. As I said that is how Democracy works.

If you fail to rally enough people to your cause, then that is your fault. It is your obligation to rally people to your cause and it is their obligation to rally people to their cause. Just because you fail and loose the election does not mean that they have no right to enact their policies. If you do not like them, change them next year.

Also talking about Homosexuality, that is now how it works. A fundamental right like this can not be easily removed. For example a party that puts gender UNequality on their agenda will not succeed with that. No court will pass a law that discriminates people for being a different gender. If it even gets that far, in Germany a party that is against the constitution is illegal.

And if a law like this still passes, fair game, as long as they did everything by the rulebook you can not do anything about it. (Try again next election, I guess?) As I said, that is how democracy works.

Offline Edwin

  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1709
  • I killed Toffee
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #409 on: March 19, 2017, 01:56:14 pm »
As I said that is how Democracy works.

Doesn't the German curriculum teach all about how a democratic system can be abused and allow human rights to be breached? I'm preddy sure it does.

And if a law like this still passes, fair game, as long as they did everything by the rulebook you can not do anything about it. (Try again next election, I guess?) As I said, that is how democracy works.

Jesus Christ, you wouldn't be able to tell you're German or anything! "If a law breaches human rights, so be it, **as long as it's done via the rulebook aka via a loophole!!**  :)


Offline Cazasar

  • Lieutenant General
  • ***
  • Posts: 9179
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #410 on: March 19, 2017, 02:57:50 pm »
Jesus Olafson.
CAUTION: INTERACTIVE SCREENSHOTS NOT MEANT FOR MEDIUM EYES
Cazasar interacting with the boys
[close]
me and cazasar interacting
[close]

Offline StevenChilton

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 1882
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #411 on: March 19, 2017, 03:06:59 pm »
Always strange when a German tries to argue liberal constitutions can't be easily changed.

This is mostly being driven by migration levels rather than fertility rates. We'll see in time whether the birthrates decline to native levels-I doubt they will because they are generally among the least integrated migrants groups, and Pew seem to think they won't decline that dramatically, but who knows. I think they will go down a bit but not to contemporary native European levels.

Figures show an incredible fast decline in birth rates under immigrants yet you still doubt it based on how you feel about them. Acceptance of LGBT's is also increasing steadily. We are changing their views, not the other way around. At least in my country. Maybe the United Kingdom is just fucked up, who knows.

Not 'how I feel about them', more because Pew themselves state they don't think the birth rates will decline to native levels and that makes sense given as a group they're among the least integrated. Like Mormons in the US, Muslims in America will most likely retain higher than average birthrates. And anyway this is mostly driven by immigration levels rather than birthrates.

I have no idea about Islam in the Netherlands, but in the UK it's the other way round. The younger generations are actually more likely to hold extreme views on most things, though some are more accepting of LGBT people (though when I say 'some' they're still very much a minority viewpoint among their age group).

https://youtu.be/xQcSvBsU-FM?t=24m

Offline MrTiki

  • Former Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3079
  • Senior Madmin EU
    • View Profile
  • Nick: MrTiki
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #412 on: March 19, 2017, 04:06:27 pm »
This is where I got my information from: https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jan/28/muslim-population-country-projection-2030

That '8% by 2030' figure is for the whole of the European continent and therefore highly misleading. European Muslims are highly concentrated in Western European countries-for instance in France the Muslim population was already around 8% in 2011. The Pew Forum data was also compiled before Merkel's 2015 'Open Door' policy. I think it's very fair to say the Muslim population of many European countries will approach 20% or more within our lifetimes supposing current trends continue.

Keep in mind 17% of the current US population is Hispanic and look how much political power they wield as a group in an electoral system that operates FPTP.
I still don't get the whole "25% of the population in some places" bit. By some places I assume you mean relevant countries in Europe, where it simply isn't true. Large Western countries we're talking about 7-10% by 2030, with the UK at 8.2%, Sweden at 9.9%, Netherlands at 7.8%, France at 10.3% and Germany at 7.1%.
I can't actually open the original Pew data and there's no actual indication of when that's from. It could have gone up with migrants or could have stayed at similar levels with decreasing birth rates, but again with no indication of when it's from it's very difficult to know.

As for if minorities get power, then surely they deserve it; that's how the system is set up.
If it's FPTP then even if all Muslims voted for a single party (ShariaLaw4All) then they'd have 0 power in the UK as they'd still have a minority of the vote. FPTP makes it incredibly difficult for parties outside the main 2-4 to have any meaningful impact on governing.
If they're in a proper political system like the Netherlands then they'd be like any other populist party and would draw a portion of the vote and either be ignored when coalitions are formed or have a minor impact on policy changes when part of a governing coalition (as should happen). Geert Wilders was part of a governing coalition and did fuck all.

I really don't get the whole panic and fearmongering regarding an increase in Muslim population. Even if/when Muslims DO take up 25% (or 50%) of the population, if it's entirely through childbirth then you'll still have to wait another 18 years for them all to actually be able to vote. Any immigrants won't be able to vote immediately either, and will have to live there for X years and become citizens. If they're able to do that then in many places they'll already have to speak the language and will already be integrating to some degree.
You guys let media headlines influence you way too much.

Edit: Also, please provide some evidence for
Quote
in the UK it's the other way round. The younger generations are actually more likely to hold extreme views on most things, though some are more accepting of LGBT people (though when I say 'some' they're still very much a minority viewpoint among their age group).
And the video doesn't play in the UK :/
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 04:08:37 pm by MrTiki »

Offline Edwin

  • First Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1709
  • I killed Toffee
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #413 on: March 19, 2017, 04:16:15 pm »
You guys let media headlines influence you way too much.

Seems like you don't read the news at all, Tiki. Do you really need a study to tell you that the younger generation of British Muslims are more extreme than the older generation? Do you live in the UK? Have you ever? lmao

Offline StevenChilton

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 1882
    • View Profile
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #414 on: March 19, 2017, 05:18:09 pm »
I said '20-25% in some places in the not too distant future'. That is a very fair prediction to make it if it's going to be 10% by 2030 in Sweden and France. I didn't put a date on it but I said it would be within our lifetimes. And as I pointed out this data is from 2011 and Merkel's recent open door policy has quickened this trend. Re-read what I wrote, I made it quite clear this wasn't an immediately imminent prospect but rather a long-term trend.

People keep focusing on birth rates here but as I keep saying it's actually more to do with migration levels. Read the Pew research and they say that the percentage of migrants into the EU28 who are from Muslim-majority countries has increased every decade and they now make up 40% of the total. I see no reason why that trend shouldn't continue.

It's not a question of whether they 'deserve' power or anything like that, it's that they will have it and I don't think we'll like the consequences. Latinos make up 17% of the US population and already wield a lot of political influence. Muslims in Europe will at some point reach a comparable situation, and this matters because as I think we've accepted they hold political and social views that are at odds with the rest of the population. European Muslims are not adapting to Europe, instead we're increasingly adapting to them. If you doubt that then ask yourself why so few media outlets will dare publish a cartoon of Muhammad anymore, or why a very large amount of the meat we buy in supermarkets is halal.

The evidence is in the video. I thought you were in the Netherlands? It's blocked in the UK but available there. It's basically Trevor Phillips interviewing a few Liberal Muslims (Yasmin Alibahai Brown, you may have heard of her, she's as liberal as they come) who are warning 'we're a dying breed' and that the battle for a liberal version of British Islam was essentially lost to the hardliners. He then says there's a glimmer of hope because '28% of British Muslims aged 16-25 say homosexuality should not be illegal verses 5% aged over 65', though admits it's not much to go on because that's still a minority view in the age group and they also hold the same % of negative views on Jewish people and all the rest of it.

Phillips also says that secularisation of British Muslims is a forlorn hope because a) they're being exposed to hard-line views via the media they consume and through trips back to their ancestral homeland etc, and b) the scale of migration means their numbers are continually bolstered by first generation migrants where such views are common, thus discouraging the secularisation process.

Offline Duuring

  • Duuring
  • ***
  • Posts: 12357
  • Free at last
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #415 on: March 19, 2017, 05:53:03 pm »
Integration of immigrants leaves much to be desired, yes. We agree on that. What we probably don't agree on is the root cause.

Offline MrTiki

  • Former Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3079
  • Senior Madmin EU
    • View Profile
  • Nick: MrTiki
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #416 on: March 19, 2017, 11:08:05 pm »
You guys let media headlines influence you way too much.
Seems like you don't read the news at all, Tiki. Do you really need a study to tell you that the younger generation of British Muslims are more extreme than the older generation? Do you live in the UK? Have you ever? lmao
I read the news every damn day, I just don't accept everything I read at face value for obvious reasons, with Tory Cabinet Ministers getting part time jobs as Editors. All I'm asking for is a little evidence to back it up.
It's very easy to draw conclusions about a general population from your own experiences, but you tend to surround yourself with and associate with others who agree with your views. Confirmation bias is a very real thing. The fact that the Muslims that I am friends with are all very liberal and happy to discuss abortion, alcohol, sex and so on is obviously one end of the spectrum but I'm not ignorant enough to think that I've spoken to a broad cross section of Muslims in society (Edit: and no, I'm not suggesting that you are).
I have lived in the UK for the past 2.5 years and did for a couple years when I was younger (I lived in the Netherlands in between). I thought you lived in North America?

@StevenChilton
Thanks for clarifying that, that does make more sense.
As for why people keep harking on about birth rates, they were brought up by the Erdogan link and were being discussed, so I figured I'd weigh in. I agree that the influx of 1st generation migrants is very probably slowing the integration process for those who moved here a long time ago or were born here, but hard-line views are only being strengthened by Islamophobia. I'm all for tougher immigration policies in the current climate, but nobody who legally migrates to the UK should be treated like a second class citizen.
I agree with Duuring that I'd love there to be better integration of immigrants, both in the UK and the rest of Europe, and that Erdogan and his ilk are making that significantly harder. As for underlying causes if anyone actually knew for certain (and could prove it) then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Offline MrTiki

  • Former Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3079
  • Senior Madmin EU
    • View Profile
  • Nick: MrTiki
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #417 on: March 20, 2017, 10:22:59 pm »
There's only so far that courts can go to prevent travel bans. As it is, now that Green Card holders etc are exempt, I actually don't know what grounds they can use to block it. Even if you disagree with it (like I do), you have to accept that Trump is doing it for security purposes and has reasonable grounds to do so. I really don't understand the current case against it.
"Loses" as the second largest party and forcing other parties to the right? The real losers are Labour in the Netherlands. They got completely demolished.

Offline Theodin

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10858
    • View Profile
  • Nick: 71st Guard MEME POLICE
  • Side: Confederacy
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #418 on: March 21, 2017, 03:12:52 am »
No matter how many votes AfD ends up getting it's still a win. The German alt-right is viewed (from my albeit limited understanding) like a combination of the Nazis and the KKK, and if AfD gets any legitimacy that's huge.

1x NA Duel- Runner up |  3x 3v3- 3rd place (Seadderol Deflatriots) (Ez Money) (71st Guards + Russian) | 1x Duel League- 4th place | 1x Regimental Groupfighting- 1st place (71st)  l  1x 2v2- 3rd Place (Vortex/Theodin) | TNWL Season 2 - 1st Place l 1x 2v2- 1st Place (Theodin/Elite) l 2x NANWL-
 71st, Nr8(LG) l 1x 4v4- 1st Place (RussianFury, Waste, NickCole, Theodin) l 1x Cav Joust- 2nd Place l 1x 4v4-
 3rd Place (Theodin, AsianP, Sleek, Godfried, Lurvy) l 1x 5v5 - 1st Place (RussianFury, Yoshie, Krastinov, Jorge, Theodin - Thanos and his children)

Offline Cazasar

  • Lieutenant General
  • ***
  • Posts: 9179
    • View Profile
  • Side: Neutral
Re: Dutch, German & French Elections Thread, or The General Political Thread
« Reply #419 on: March 21, 2017, 07:49:58 am »
Thats not the case. Who have you been talking to jesus.
CAUTION: INTERACTIVE SCREENSHOTS NOT MEANT FOR MEDIUM EYES
Cazasar interacting with the boys
[close]
me and cazasar interacting
[close]