Author Topic: Favourite All Time Leader(s)  (Read 101915 times)

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Offline Schmidtche

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #120 on: March 07, 2013, 05:18:22 pm »
Spoiler
Adolf Hitler.
Eh? His own generals resented his control over the army. As they put it, he was a corporal leading an army, and he was a major reason Germany lost WWII. His direct control over the eastern front destroyed any chance the Germans had of winning. Although he got Germany on its feet after the post-WWI depression (no small feat), he was a cruddy military leader. Also, he was a mass-murderer. As far as evil goes, he fits the bill pretty well.

Personally, one of my favorite leaders is Jan Zizka. I also like Suvorov, but I feel Zizka is under-appreciated. Zizka pioneered mobile defensive warfare, using new technology (handgonnes and artillery) and new tactics (war wagons) to great effect. He lost both of his eyes, and led his forces blind while never losing a single battle (alongside Alexander the Great, Scipio Africanus, Genghis Khan, Alexander Suvorov, and Khalid ibn al-Walid). A typical example of a battle he fought would be Kunta Hora. It is typical because Zizka's peasantry is outnumbered 10-1, they are fighting the creme of the Hapsburg army (knights), and they win, inflicting heavy casualties.

"Leadership has been defined many ways but for the basis of this argument I find this one most all encompassing, leadership is "process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task." (1). If we use this definition we see where Hitler obviously excels in this category, he is one of the greatest orators of his day, and had the German people eating out of his hand.

You may be thinking that many men other then Hitler had this ability of influence but we see in Hitler the ability to inspire his people to switch from one distinct political ideology to another without bloodshed. He also brought Germany out of the deep depression they were suffering from in post world war 1 Europe. If we consider only that leadership is the ability of one person to influence others to support a common cause we see no equal to Hitler, no other person in history influenced as many people willingly into supporting one common cause without bloodshed.

Having given reasons why Hitler is one of the greatest leaders in history, i ask con to either disprove Hitler was a good leader or suggest a more influential individual in history."
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I disagree on that "lead them out of depression" part. Many unemployed people were pushed into the army or the labour-group "Reichsarbeitsdienst" and this way just disappeared from the statistics.
Germany was also nearly bancrupt in 1938, as the economy was focused on military production and exports were in decrease.  Food was partially rationalized befor the war even started.
He was actually nearly forced to go to war in 1939, cause german economy would have collapsed otherwise.

The comment about "no bloodshed" is also debatable, cause germans who opposed his party were killed during and after his takeover.

Despite that, he of course is one of the most influential leaders in history, cause he still managed to get  the support of millions.

Offline GoldenEagle

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #121 on: March 07, 2013, 05:44:19 pm »
Quote
He was actually nearly forced to go to war in 1939, cause german economy would have collapsed otherwise.

When he attacked Poland, he tought the world would turn the other cheek again as they did several times before. He wasn't expecting Britain and France to step up, especially because he made the Poles look like the first agressors by making his soldiers get in Polish uniforms and shoot against Germans (Im not sure if they actually shot at the soldiers or if they just shot some rounds into the air), who gave him some sort of a reason to invade Poland.


« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 06:54:27 pm by GoldenEagle »

Offline MPC

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #122 on: March 08, 2013, 01:00:56 pm »
One of my favourite all time leaders was not exactly a leader, but he was a vice president during Roosevelt's terms until that racist Truman got the Vice President ticket.

Henry A. Wallace.

The reason for this is what he stood for Pre World War 2, during, and afterwards. If Wallace would have won the vice presidential nomination (on Roosevelts 4th term) or even the presidency, the world after Roosevelts death would have looked entirely different, and maybe the nuclear arm's race could have been avoided.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 01:18:56 pm by MPC »
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Offline KillerMongoose

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #123 on: March 08, 2013, 03:00:54 pm »
Just to name one, Spartacus. He leads his gladiators to freedom then gathers an army of slaves and uses unconventional tactics to smash the Roman army. It wasn't until he was betrayed and stranded in southern Italy, with vast legions pouring onto his men that he finally fell.

Offline Jocam

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #124 on: March 10, 2013, 11:53:23 am »
Charles Cornwallis
Erwin Rommel
Michael de Ruyter


Some of you said Adolf Hitler, though his strategic vision was clouded, he made hasty decisions, and overestimated his forces. also, his priority would lie with his own beliefs, and not with the fact of battle

Offline Schmidtche

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #125 on: March 11, 2013, 01:29:00 pm »
Quote
He was actually nearly forced to go to war in 1939, cause german economy would have collapsed otherwise.

When he attacked Poland, he tought the world would turn the other cheek again as they did several times before. He wasn't expecting Britain and France to step up, especially because he made the Poles look like the first agressors by making his soldiers get in Polish uniforms and shoot against Germans (Im not sure if they actually shot at the soldiers or if they just shot some rounds into the air), who gave him some sort of a reason to invade Poland.

Oh he definitly wanted the war. That's how he ruined germany's economy, by spending every cent on weapons.

Offline GoldenEagle

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #126 on: March 11, 2013, 02:37:25 pm »
Quote
He was actually nearly forced to go to war in 1939, cause german economy would have collapsed otherwise.

When he attacked Poland, he tought the world would turn the other cheek again as they did several times before. He wasn't expecting Britain and France to step up, especially because he made the Poles look like the first agressors by making his soldiers get in Polish uniforms and shoot against Germans (Im not sure if they actually shot at the soldiers or if they just shot some rounds into the air), who gave him some sort of a reason to invade Poland.

Oh he definitly wanted the war. That's how he ruined germany's economy, by spending every cent on weapons.

Okay... Did I say something against it?...

Offline Schmidtche

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #127 on: March 11, 2013, 05:15:17 pm »
Not sure. I didn't see how your comment was connected to mine, so I just clarified.

Offline GoldenEagle

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #128 on: March 11, 2013, 05:49:58 pm »
Not sure. I didn't see how your comment was connected to mine, so I just clarified.

He wasn't ready for war in 2 fronts. Just pointed that out.

Offline Ryno2626

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #129 on: April 04, 2013, 01:49:51 pm »
MajGen Alexander Vandergrift, used a lot of really good tactics and made the most of his predicament.

Offline Josef Lenin

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #130 on: April 12, 2013, 04:14:49 pm »
Josef Davidoich Lenin, OH OH I KID. But seriously, my favorites would have to be
1. Alexander Nevsky- Achieved victory over Swedish , and German Invaders, but pussied out towards the golden horde
2. Alexander the Great- Do I really need to explain?
3. Napoleon- 19th Century version of this guy ^ except he lost
4. Alexander V. Suvorov - Great Russian General, said to have never lost a battle (bullshit)
5. Suleiman the Magnificent- Longest reigning Sultan of the Ottomans, and did a lotta conquering yo.

Offline Landrik

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #131 on: April 12, 2013, 07:40:45 pm »
...without bloodshed.

What about the backroom assassinations and his political thugs, the SA beating down the competition - mainly the communists? Sure, there was a lot of violence in politics after WWI (looking at you, freikorps), so surely you can't say it was bloodless.
Humans are extremely complicated creatures. Death uncomplicates them to a frightening degree...

Offline Crusader

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #132 on: April 12, 2013, 10:29:10 pm »
Caesar

'Nuff said
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Offline Completenoob

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #133 on: April 13, 2013, 02:29:50 pm »
Hitler having person control of 2 key panzer divisions cost them the battle for normandy and in turn the war.

As much as Rommel deserves his respect, I find it silly people put way too much emphasis on the different ideas about how to place the divisions and their respective deployment. Given how long any kind of armoured division can stretch in total length (hint = it's three digit number) during any kind of battlefield march even in good road conditions, France is relatively concentrated in that regard, and as many other generals noted, once they are deployed or have to move anywhere as reserve or not, they are chiefly on the mercy of good luck and how fast they can get there before the lines get clogged by air power. Not as much attrition or any kind of damage really, but simply preventing any focused and concentrated movement and clogging resupply chances pretty well altogether. Major troop movement already was restricted to night time only or limited in size because hey, even if 98% of the ordnance would miss or only damage soft skinned vehicles, you are not exactly going anywhere when you have few flights of aircraft bombing and harassing the fuck out of you. All it takes is few clogs on the road and the entire column is halted until it can be cleared. Sure, it would have given them a lot better chance to defend against the initial wave and perhaps even succeed, but had something gone wrong, it would have been instant disastrous loss of Panzer reserve since any organised retreat would have been very difficult to pull off, and most of the equipment would have been left behind, which would have probably resulted in very rapid collapse of the front, even if they might have given very bloody nose to the Western powers.

Prime example between jumping in pool of piss or taking bucket of shit down your neck. Your choice.  :P

Oh, and arguably the closer they are at the beaches, the greater risk of adding naval artillery as another factor to restrict movement once the location is pinpointed. Once again, it's not as much about attrition as it is simply about complete denial with some attrition involved, especially when most of AFVs don't have the privilege of staying in coastal fortifications that intentionally halted their activities for a moment in order to avoid drawing fire.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 02:38:27 pm by Completenoob »

Offline Lantking

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Re: Favourite All Time Leader(s)
« Reply #134 on: April 15, 2013, 08:05:38 am »
1. Napoleon
2. Julius Caesar
3. Alexander The Great
4. General Robert E. Lee
5. William Wallace
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 08:08:05 am by Lantking »