Author Topic: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Team Redemption - S3 Champions]  (Read 116028 times)

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Offline Cytiuz

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1200 on: June 08, 2020, 08:39:57 am »
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Offline Wastee

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1201 on: June 08, 2020, 08:41:48 am »
Here’s my 2 cents.

Were this a league where each team played twice I would say top 4 teams only make it. Since each team only gets one opportunity to play each of the other teams I lean more towards all 6 teams making it. Teams that have slow starts to the season pretty much get screwed otherwise. It all depends if we’re going for more of a tournament feel or a league feel.

Could always do some wack bracket where the top 3 seeds need to lose twice to be eliminated and the bottom three are single elimination.

Upper (double elim) bracket

2 plays 3 — winner plays 1

Lower (single elim) bracket
4 plays 5

6 plays loser of 2/3

Then

Winner of 6 & 2/3 plays winner of 4/5

Winner of those two plays loser of 2/3 & 1

Winner of that plays winner of upper bracket for championship

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Offline Hawkince

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1202 on: June 08, 2020, 08:42:55 am »
Here’s my 2 cents.

Were this a league where each team played twice I would say top 4 teams only make it. Since each team only gets one opportunity to play each of the other teams I lean more towards all 6 teams making it. Teams that have slow starts to the season pretty much get screwed otherwise. It all depends if we’re going for more of a tournament feel or a league feel.

Could always do some wack bracket where the top 3 seeds need to lose twice to be eliminated and the bottom three are single elimination.

Upper (double elim) bracket

2 plays 3 — winner plays 1

Lower (single elim) bracket
4 plays 5

6 plays loser of 2/3

Then

Winner of 6 & 2/3 plays winner of 4/5

Winner of those two plays loser of 2/3 & 1

Winner of that plays winner of upper bracket for championship

that set up is too complicated just make it so the top 2 seeds get a bye

Offline Cytiuz

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1203 on: June 08, 2020, 08:44:12 am »
Here’s my 2 cents.

Were this a league where each team played twice I would say top 4 teams only make it. Since each team only gets one opportunity to play each of the other teams I lean more towards all 6 teams making it. Teams that have slow starts to the season pretty much get screwed otherwise. It all depends if we’re going for more of a tournament feel or a league feel.

Could always do some wack bracket where the top 3 seeds need to lose twice to be eliminated and the bottom three are single elimination.

Upper (double elim) bracket

2 plays 3 — winner plays 1

Lower (single elim) bracket
4 plays 5

6 plays loser of 2/3

Then

Winner of 6 & 2/3 plays winner of 4/5

Winner of those two plays loser of 2/3 & 1

Winner of that plays winner of upper bracket for championship

Offline Dan the Seagull Chef

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1204 on: June 08, 2020, 08:50:24 am »
Playoffs are dumb tbh
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Offline Fartknocker

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1205 on: June 08, 2020, 08:56:07 am »
Regular season is for playoff seeding in every single sport other than soccer. There isn't enough teams to eliminate them from the playoffs. The top two teams should be rewarded with a bye week for their regular season performance and they get to scout the other teams during their matches. 3 seed plays 6 seed, 4 seed plays 5 seed. I don't get what the big deal would be to do this. More twitch viewers for you Aurum because there would be two teams not playing that could watch the matches and it extends the season a little bit. It would benefit everyone (more twitch streams and everyone gets to play NW a bit more).

If you're set on 4 teams then go for it, but at least consider the benefits of doing it this way.

I mean, Hockey the regular season determines who gets into the playoffs and who doesn't. In SMITE (idk about other games) not all the teams go to the playoff stage after the regular season.
Having everyone make the playoffs takes away from the importance of the regular season, if everyone's guaranteed to make it, then who cares? You could put in zero effort every match, still make the playoffs and then switch it on for play offs. Sure, you get better seeding on paper, but it makes no practical difference, like if your team has a tendency to play really well against say Corona, but really shit against Redemption, what's to stop people from just half-assing their matches to end up with seeding so they can play Corona first?
Like there's no point to a regular-season if you do that, at that point, it's literally just a bunch of scrims. Teams should have to play to earn their spots, they shouldn't be guaranteed just for participating.

We've already had this discussion on every draft league. 6 teams is different than 31 like in the NHL... And like I said the regular season is for seeding, so its for the same reason the top teams in the NHL push for the 1 seed to get a better matchup, or like how in the NFL teams push for a wildcard bye.

The number of teams doesn't make a difference. In fact, if we had a larger community with more potential teams, I would even suggest not only do the bottom 2 teams get eliminated but they have to play relegation matches lol.  If everyone makes the playoffs, then the regular-season matches are literally just scrims, they hold no practical importance.  Who tf cares about seeding?

If you want a spot in the playoffs, play your ass off and earn it. If you don't make it, have some dignity, say your gg's and wait for the next league, that's what I'm gonna do if we don't make it. It feels like a cop-out to be complaining about the playoff setup right before playoffs.

Number of teams makes a huge difference. If we had more teams then it would make perfect sense to eliminate teams from the playoffs. That is half of my argument. I have explained why seeding is important.

I've been saying this since the beginning of the league. And I've said it before in almost every draft league also. So don't rope me into being someone like that, cause I been arguing this forever.

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Offline Aurum

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1206 on: June 08, 2020, 09:01:26 am »
Imho I think that the timeframe is fine. I think that overall this tournament has had such good participation so far is because NA hasn't had a proper competitive event in like a month since Wastee's tournament. I remember in both of my previous leagues there being a pretty big problem with teams scheduling matches with 2 different captains a week and with activity as a whole. While I feel like this is easily my best league yet with the most motivated group of people, I do think that there would be a certain point where it won't be as fun anymore and that inactivity would start to creep through. Plus you have to see that I chose the league length myself based around my needs. Personally as much as I have been enjoying it, the last thing that I want is for this to go on for 10+ weeks. The league could of also worked with another team or two but by judging how even this league has been so far, I'm pretty happy with only having 6.
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Offline Stroke0fd34th

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1207 on: June 08, 2020, 09:03:20 am »
Regular season is for playoff seeding in every single sport other than soccer. There isn't enough teams to eliminate them from the playoffs. The top two teams should be rewarded with a bye week for their regular season performance and they get to scout the other teams during their matches. 3 seed plays 6 seed, 4 seed plays 5 seed. I don't get what the big deal would be to do this. More twitch viewers for you Aurum because there would be two teams not playing that could watch the matches and it extends the season a little bit. It would benefit everyone (more twitch streams and everyone gets to play NW a bit more).

If you're set on 4 teams then go for it, but at least consider the benefits of doing it this way.

I mean, Hockey the regular season determines who gets into the playoffs and who doesn't. In SMITE (idk about other games) not all the teams go to the playoff stage after the regular season.
Having everyone make the playoffs takes away from the importance of the regular season, if everyone's guaranteed to make it, then who cares? You could put in zero effort every match, still make the playoffs and then switch it on for play offs. Sure, you get better seeding on paper, but it makes no practical difference, like if your team has a tendency to play really well against say Corona, but really shit against Redemption, what's to stop people from just half-assing their matches to end up with seeding so they can play Corona first?
Like there's no point to a regular-season if you do that, at that point, it's literally just a bunch of scrims. Teams should have to play to earn their spots, they shouldn't be guaranteed just for participating.
Which is why the decision is being decided on basically at the end of the regular season.... the argument against saying it takes away from a important regular season is dumb in my opinion. Its the same argument from people wanting a 4 seed playoff, while I am not interpreting it is completely stupid. I think its better to point out how short the season already is. The Regular season does nothing for most teams. If you really wanted to have a impactful regular season it should have been extended. It is better to think abroad, and how we can make a playoff interesting. Either way the importance of the regular season at this point shouldn't be about elimination, but about seeding and making the playoff race easier. Scrimming will only make some players or teams so good, the only way some players get the reps they need is through regular season, and we don't have a lot of that as is. Why should a team, have a few bad performances and already be ruled out?

The length of the regular season shouldn't make a difference. Like we all knew we had 5 matches to perform our best in and show that we deserve our spot in the playoffs. If a team is having enough bad performances to be eliminated, why should they be given a spot?
No one is perfect, teams need time to adjust. Like I said to say teams who struggle are automatically unworthy of even PARTICIPATING in a chance to win, is judging someone who hasn't walked, on their inability to walk properly. None of these teams have had a proper amount of time to practice, which gives everyone reason to have them all play in a playoff to show off how they have improved. Like I said this is why this "playoff" decision should be determined after, so teams try hard through. We all have 1 match left, so for most teams it is already a "scrim" since some are predetermined to their disposition. Some already know what it takes to either win, or even if they have to try anymore. The season is so short, to argue that perfect performance for 4 weeks of actually playing, some players just coming back in the period, is absolutely insane.

No, it isn't. We're all comp players and have been for awhile. No one is learning to walk for the first time, and there've been scrims going on since a week before even the first match week, and most teams scrim multiple days a week and multiple times a night lol, that's over a 4 week period at this point, so the excuse of not having enough time to practice feels disingenuous.
At this point, some teams like Blademasters & Corona, yes, their last match doesn't really matter, but they've played to the point that they earned it, they clinched their spot and they get to reap the rewards of their efforts, for the rest of us, you know, we gotta keep playing our best for this last week and prove we also deserve to be in the playoffs with them.

Offline Cytiuz

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1208 on: June 08, 2020, 09:07:55 am »
Imho I think that the timeframe is fine. I think that overall this tournament has had such good participation so far is because NA hasn't had a proper competitive event in like a month since Wastee's tournament. I remember in both of my previous leagues there being a pretty big problem with teams scheduling matches with 2 different captains a week and with activity as a whole. While I feel like this is easily my best league yet with the most motivated group of people, I do think that there would be a certain point where it won't be as fun anymore and that inactivity would start to creep through. Plus you have to see that I chose the league length myself based around my needs. Personally as much as I have been enjoying it, the last thing that I want is for this to go on for 10+ weeks. The league could of also worked with another team or two but by judging how even this league has been so far, I'm pretty happy with only having 6.
With all do respect this is your league, and it is your right to choose. We aren't concluding anything, we are saying it is wrong to say that 4 teams should only have a chance, it such a short span. No one wants 2 matches per team, it isn't what we are saying. We are saying you have rushed the duration of the league, to the point that to conclude only 4 teams get a chance is essentially bad to put it simply. I get you like your league, but a lot of people did say they wanted to do 6 as well as 4, and concluded in a tie. So this should be open for to debate, and at least some talk among captains or something, because all your doing is limiting your league, and handing away opportunities to make it better in my opinion, and I think other people can say the same. You were set and stone on a delicate argument. Some of us have played in every draft league, and I think to say your word is more conclusive then some of these vets saying otherwise is highly bombastic, respectively.(not trying to be rude)

Offline Cytiuz

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1209 on: June 08, 2020, 09:10:18 am »
Regular season is for playoff seeding in every single sport other than soccer. There isn't enough teams to eliminate them from the playoffs. The top two teams should be rewarded with a bye week for their regular season performance and they get to scout the other teams during their matches. 3 seed plays 6 seed, 4 seed plays 5 seed. I don't get what the big deal would be to do this. More twitch viewers for you Aurum because there would be two teams not playing that could watch the matches and it extends the season a little bit. It would benefit everyone (more twitch streams and everyone gets to play NW a bit more).

If you're set on 4 teams then go for it, but at least consider the benefits of doing it this way.

I mean, Hockey the regular season determines who gets into the playoffs and who doesn't. In SMITE (idk about other games) not all the teams go to the playoff stage after the regular season.
Having everyone make the playoffs takes away from the importance of the regular season, if everyone's guaranteed to make it, then who cares? You could put in zero effort every match, still make the playoffs and then switch it on for play offs. Sure, you get better seeding on paper, but it makes no practical difference, like if your team has a tendency to play really well against say Corona, but really shit against Redemption, what's to stop people from just half-assing their matches to end up with seeding so they can play Corona first?
Like there's no point to a regular-season if you do that, at that point, it's literally just a bunch of scrims. Teams should have to play to earn their spots, they shouldn't be guaranteed just for participating.
Which is why the decision is being decided on basically at the end of the regular season.... the argument against saying it takes away from a important regular season is dumb in my opinion. Its the same argument from people wanting a 4 seed playoff, while I am not interpreting it is completely stupid. I think its better to point out how short the season already is. The Regular season does nothing for most teams. If you really wanted to have a impactful regular season it should have been extended. It is better to think abroad, and how we can make a playoff interesting. Either way the importance of the regular season at this point shouldn't be about elimination, but about seeding and making the playoff race easier. Scrimming will only make some players or teams so good, the only way some players get the reps they need is through regular season, and we don't have a lot of that as is. Why should a team, have a few bad performances and already be ruled out?

The length of the regular season shouldn't make a difference. Like we all knew we had 5 matches to perform our best in and show that we deserve our spot in the playoffs. If a team is having enough bad performances to be eliminated, why should they be given a spot?
No one is perfect, teams need time to adjust. Like I said to say teams who struggle are automatically unworthy of even PARTICIPATING in a chance to win, is judging someone who hasn't walked, on their inability to walk properly. None of these teams have had a proper amount of time to practice, which gives everyone reason to have them all play in a playoff to show off how they have improved. Like I said this is why this "playoff" decision should be determined after, so teams try hard through. We all have 1 match left, so for most teams it is already a "scrim" since some are predetermined to their disposition. Some already know what it takes to either win, or even if they have to try anymore. The season is so short, to argue that perfect performance for 4 weeks of actually playing, some players just coming back in the period, is absolutely insane.

No, it isn't. We're all comp players and have been for awhile. No one is learning to walk for the first time, and there've been scrims going on since a week before even the first match week, and most teams scrim multiple days a week and multiple times a night lol, that's over a 4 week period at this point, so the excuse of not having enough time to practice feels disingenuous.
At this point, some teams like Blademasters & Corona, yes, their last match doesn't really matter, but they've played to the point that they earned it, they clinched their spot and they get to reap the rewards of their efforts, for the rest of us, you know, we gotta keep playing our best for this last week and prove we also deserve to be in the playoffs with them.
That is fair to say, but for some teams they have to have everything add up for it to work in their favor, and yes they did lose some of their matches, but like I said concluding a 5 match season is like concluding a batters career based upon his first couple at bats .
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 09:11:50 am by Cytiuz »

Offline Risk_

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1210 on: June 08, 2020, 09:19:09 am »
From the beginning the league was going to top 4 seeds which was put on the thread, I believe. Then Aurum put up the poll sometime later; then after a bit, decided to make it top 4 seeds. Idk why people complain or want to argue it now, especially after week 4 matches. Aurum put up 2 posts on the thread (maybe more) saying for people to give their thoughts on the playoff system. You saying it now after given the previous opportunities just doesn't look good.

And before you say "no he didn't"
here you go

Spoiler
Also i'm updating the rules down below.

Overtime
Max of 1 Bo6 OT (3-3 tie, 4 round wins to win)
3-3 Tiebreaker will be a ft4 (4 round wins to win, no ties after)
Each team will get 1 30 second timeout each OT period (so one 30 second timeout during the Bo6 and one during the ft4 period)

My logic for this is that I still like the bo6 format, but the matches can last for a bit too long and with the possibility of there being three ties (unlikely, but just incase) a series, it just makes sense to cut it off at a certain point. The minimum amount of rounds the overtime can be is 4 while the max is 13, which I think is a fair amount. It will give teams the chance to rebound if they played a bad round or two without it dragging out too long. For reference, SS vs BM last week was a total of 17 rounds of overtime which is a little excessive considering it could of gone even longer. Let me know what you guys think about this.

General Rules:
Officially putting this in writing, but both teams will have to be ready (R is typed) by 59:30. This'll give time for substitutions to happen and strats to be called without taking too long. Most games have been proceeding like this anyways.
Rosters will be 100% deadlocked by the end of Round 5. Meaning that if you have an inactive player in the playoffs, then you won't be able to swap that person out for a free agent.
Rounds will last a maximum of 5 minutes


Playoff information:
Single elimination format
Seeds 1 - 4
Round 1 will be a simple Bo3
Round 2 (Championship) will be a Bo5 - willing to change this if people think that a Bo5 would be way too much to play for.

Still toying around with the idea of a lower seeded "tournament" as well. Undrafted team vs seed 6 and winner plays seed 5. However there would be no prizepool unless people donated. So i'm not too sure if people would even want to play with that. Or maybe just say fuck it and do seeds 1-6 in the tournament. I'll put a poll up on the thread because I'm actually still really torn about this. I'm torn because it feels like seeds 1-2 don't get anything special for being top seeded but at the same time if seeds 5 and 6 are in the tournament then what was the actual point of having the regular season if everybody was going to be in the playoffs anyways. I mean seeds 3-6 will have to play an extra game in the playoffs but still. pls vote i need help

Lastly - Trading ends this week, so if you want to do a last minute trade then this is your chance.

but ye just let me know what yall think
[close]

Spoiler
Also ill be having the playoff system announced by Sunday night or Monday. If anyone has some last minute thoughts make sure u post em
[close]

Offline Cytiuz

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1211 on: June 08, 2020, 09:22:24 am »
From the beginning the league was going to top 4 seeds which was put on the thread, I believe. Then Aurum put up the poll sometime later; then after a bit, decided to make it top 4 seeds. Idk why people complain or want to argue it now, especially after week 4 matches. Aurum put up 2 posts on the thread (maybe more) saying for people to give their thoughts on the playoff system. You saying it now after given the previous opportunities just doesn't look good.

And before you say "no he didn't"
here you go

Spoiler
Also i'm updating the rules down below.

Overtime
Max of 1 Bo6 OT (3-3 tie, 4 round wins to win)
3-3 Tiebreaker will be a ft4 (4 round wins to win, no ties after)
Each team will get 1 30 second timeout each OT period (so one 30 second timeout during the Bo6 and one during the ft4 period)

My logic for this is that I still like the bo6 format, but the matches can last for a bit too long and with the possibility of there being three ties (unlikely, but just incase) a series, it just makes sense to cut it off at a certain point. The minimum amount of rounds the overtime can be is 4 while the max is 13, which I think is a fair amount. It will give teams the chance to rebound if they played a bad round or two without it dragging out too long. For reference, SS vs BM last week was a total of 17 rounds of overtime which is a little excessive considering it could of gone even longer. Let me know what you guys think about this.

General Rules:
Officially putting this in writing, but both teams will have to be ready (R is typed) by 59:30. This'll give time for substitutions to happen and strats to be called without taking too long. Most games have been proceeding like this anyways.
Rosters will be 100% deadlocked by the end of Round 5. Meaning that if you have an inactive player in the playoffs, then you won't be able to swap that person out for a free agent.
Rounds will last a maximum of 5 minutes


Playoff information:
Single elimination format
Seeds 1 - 4
Round 1 will be a simple Bo3
Round 2 (Championship) will be a Bo5 - willing to change this if people think that a Bo5 would be way too much to play for.

Still toying around with the idea of a lower seeded "tournament" as well. Undrafted team vs seed 6 and winner plays seed 5. However there would be no prizepool unless people donated. So i'm not too sure if people would even want to play with that. Or maybe just say fuck it and do seeds 1-6 in the tournament. I'll put a poll up on the thread because I'm actually still really torn about this. I'm torn because it feels like seeds 1-2 don't get anything special for being top seeded but at the same time if seeds 5 and 6 are in the tournament then what was the actual point of having the regular season if everybody was going to be in the playoffs anyways. I mean seeds 3-6 will have to play an extra game in the playoffs but still. pls vote i need help

Lastly - Trading ends this week, so if you want to do a last minute trade then this is your chance.

but ye just let me know what yall think
[close]

Spoiler
Also ill be having the playoff system announced by Sunday night or Monday. If anyone has some last minute thoughts make sure u post em
[close]
Why would he set and stone something, then ask about how people wanted to do a system? Aurum has concluded half this league on the go?

Offline Aurum

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1212 on: June 08, 2020, 09:23:44 am »
Thanks Risk
nah windflower just tries to act cultured and edgy but hes actually just a 21yo lonely canadian who wastes all his time serving donuts to fat american tourists and trying to date underaged video game girls

Offline Fartknocker

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1213 on: June 08, 2020, 09:26:55 am »
Again, I've been saying this since the start and have argued this in other draft leagues. It looks bad now obviously cause we just came off a loss. Whatever, I don't care. We can still make the playoffs regardless. I've just been suggesting this for a long time and it hasn't been changed, so obviously as it gets closer I'm gonna campaign harder for it. Aurum already said he'd sleep on it. It's his league and what he says goes so if it stays the same then oh well at least I tried.
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Offline Aurum

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Re: North American Gold 5v5 League [Season 3][Week 4]
« Reply #1214 on: June 08, 2020, 09:29:29 am »
From the beginning the league was going to top 4 seeds which was put on the thread, I believe. Then Aurum put up the poll sometime later; then after a bit, decided to make it top 4 seeds. Idk why people complain or want to argue it now, especially after week 4 matches. Aurum put up 2 posts on the thread (maybe more) saying for people to give their thoughts on the playoff system. You saying it now after given the previous opportunities just doesn't look good.

And before you say "no he didn't"
here you go

Spoiler
Also i'm updating the rules down below.

Overtime
Max of 1 Bo6 OT (3-3 tie, 4 round wins to win)
3-3 Tiebreaker will be a ft4 (4 round wins to win, no ties after)
Each team will get 1 30 second timeout each OT period (so one 30 second timeout during the Bo6 and one during the ft4 period)

My logic for this is that I still like the bo6 format, but the matches can last for a bit too long and with the possibility of there being three ties (unlikely, but just incase) a series, it just makes sense to cut it off at a certain point. The minimum amount of rounds the overtime can be is 4 while the max is 13, which I think is a fair amount. It will give teams the chance to rebound if they played a bad round or two without it dragging out too long. For reference, SS vs BM last week was a total of 17 rounds of overtime which is a little excessive considering it could of gone even longer. Let me know what you guys think about this.

General Rules:
Officially putting this in writing, but both teams will have to be ready (R is typed) by 59:30. This'll give time for substitutions to happen and strats to be called without taking too long. Most games have been proceeding like this anyways.
Rosters will be 100% deadlocked by the end of Round 5. Meaning that if you have an inactive player in the playoffs, then you won't be able to swap that person out for a free agent.
Rounds will last a maximum of 5 minutes


Playoff information:
Single elimination format
Seeds 1 - 4
Round 1 will be a simple Bo3
Round 2 (Championship) will be a Bo5 - willing to change this if people think that a Bo5 would be way too much to play for.

Still toying around with the idea of a lower seeded "tournament" as well. Undrafted team vs seed 6 and winner plays seed 5. However there would be no prizepool unless people donated. So i'm not too sure if people would even want to play with that. Or maybe just say fuck it and do seeds 1-6 in the tournament. I'll put a poll up on the thread because I'm actually still really torn about this. I'm torn because it feels like seeds 1-2 don't get anything special for being top seeded but at the same time if seeds 5 and 6 are in the tournament then what was the actual point of having the regular season if everybody was going to be in the playoffs anyways. I mean seeds 3-6 will have to play an extra game in the playoffs but still. pls vote i need help

Lastly - Trading ends this week, so if you want to do a last minute trade then this is your chance.

but ye just let me know what yall think
[close]

Spoiler
Also ill be having the playoff system announced by Sunday night or Monday. If anyone has some last minute thoughts make sure u post em
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Why would he set and stone something, then ask about how people wanted to do a system? Aurum has concluded half this league on the go?

The 4 seed system was never set in stone. Originally I was just going to do a championship match but wastee had convinced me (rightfully so) that a playoff system would be better. If you actually read the post, you'll see that I was still looking for feedback on what I should do for the playoff system. I also don't see what the problem is. Most of the changes n shit that I added was based on feedback that I got from multiple people. I wanted to try and be as transparent as possibly and make the league as good as I could make it, so I was highly receptive to changing stuff. A lot of my shit was outdated too so it needed updating
nah windflower just tries to act cultured and edgy but hes actually just a 21yo lonely canadian who wastes all his time serving donuts to fat american tourists and trying to date underaged video game girls