Author Topic: 2v2 Tournie format discussion  (Read 8020 times)

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Offline DarkTemplar

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2021, 07:58:32 pm »
we're on it too


Offline MarxeiL

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2021, 09:01:14 pm »
96y & 71st coalition there we go
| 1x 10v10 Winner | 2x 9v9 Winner | 2x 8v8 Winner | 1x 7v7 Winner | 1x 6v6 Winner | 2x 5v5 Winner | 1x 4v4 Winner | 1x 3v3 Winner |
| 1x TDT Winner | 1x NWL (2nd L) Winner | 1x NWL (1st L) Winner | 1x RGT Winner | 2x RGL Winner |
| 1x TDT Runner-up | 1x 8v8 Runner-up | 1x 7v7 Runner-up | 1x NWFL Runner-up | 1x EIC Runner-up | 1x 2v2 Runner-up |


Offline John Price

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2021, 09:02:02 pm »
Reforming 27th just for this
Knightmare is from Albania, no?
Sorry, I can't accept this team.

Offline Vegi.

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2021, 09:09:40 pm »
Reforming 27th just for this
Good luck
Stop looking at my posts Fietta #RentFree

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Offline StockholmDE

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2021, 09:45:00 pm »
Reforming 27th just for this
Make sure Whiteknight is in


Offline 33rdKincaid

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2021, 09:45:24 am »
Guess whether we do single elim groups or 2 leagues can come down to how many teams we have in the end then :) watch this space and thanks for all the enthusiastic input!

So people have a timeline, applications will open when EIC ends with a view to starting a month after to leave a suitable gap.

Offline ArtOfKilling

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2021, 10:38:28 am »
Sounds good, looking forward to this !

Offline Tardet

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2021, 10:48:20 am »
Honestly, I would love the idea of doing it through a division system. I don't think we'll get more than 12 teams for a tournament like that and even then, 24 regiments signing-up is ambitious (but not impossible given the high reputation of the event and its host). That would make it 6 teams per divisions, a 5 weeks round-robin ​stage that you can either consider sufficient on its own to crow a winner or use it as a seeding tool for a playoff stage that could include 2/4 teams.

Pros:
- Everyone gets to play against each other while still facing coalitions of a - somewhat - similar strength.
- The format is adaptable. Less teams than expected -> Shorter round-robin stage but larger playoffs, with RR essentially working as seeding and no longer to eliminate the weaker teams. More teams than expected -> Longer round-robin stage but shorter/inexistent playoffs (just like a regular league).
- Decent schedule. Two months at maximum, regardless of which formats you go for.
- Regardless of the format's choice, most teams will get to experience 75% of the event meaning they actually will enjoy it to its -almost- full extent.

Cons:
- I suggested the idea?  ???



Also I feel there is a need to be having this discussion. I didn't play nor ref many matches in the last edition of the 2v2 but from the little I have gathered, I personally found it hard to find a real hype when it came down to many interesting match-ups either due to the way people played but also due to the maps. Kincaid took a lot of time to work-out some proper custom ones and honestly I think it was vastly appreciated even though it's true they were a bit large, but my biggest concern was how bland they were.

When I think about 2v2, the first things that come to my minds are these:




I got none of the vibes these videos give me in the last 2v2s I played or watched. It was a lot of running to get to the enemy and often, a lot of chasing once you got close because the regiments that would deem themselves less skilled in melee would simply abuse the run-away and fire strategy, which although legitimate, makes for a lot of really boring matches. True enough, you can't change the way people play BUT you can impact it in how you approach your custom maps. By making them extremely asymmetrical, without any big hills or complicated terrains, you essentially encourage that bland/charmless gameplay that I feel was simply too present in the last editions.

I really miss this old vibe style, I know not everyone got to experience it but you only have but to watch the videos I linked to understand how cool a 2v2 could be. Despite the fire in charge, despite the chaotic melees, it was so much more straight to the point. In the examples I linked, the IVe knew they were the weaker of the two in melee yet they did not refuse these big engagements, instead they embraced them and tried to make the best of them, which lead to countless close rounds that could have gone either way. In the 91st vs the 92nd one, which to this date still serve as the reference for 2v2 competitive matches, you can clearly some big-ass shooting and out-manoeuvering phases that inevitably always end-up in big melees. The first instance of the rounds never drags on for too excessively long.

Obviously, the fact both lines are around 30v30 in these videos also helps to make it look so much more epic/entertaining. But it also comes down a lot to how you approach such a format and personally, I would very much prefer if we divert from what has been the recent meta where everything has to be clean, even, on either sides, to try and go back to the old style. I am 100% convinced everyone would get to enjoy it more.





« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 10:52:26 am by Tardet »
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often.




Offline John Price

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2021, 11:01:03 am »
Ffs Tardet

I'll come back and read this later its too early
Knightmare is from Albania, no?
Sorry, I can't accept this team.

Offline Tardet

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2021, 11:10:16 am »
Ffs Tardet

I'll come back and read this later its too early
On I VaKarM.net am there is literally an sick achievement called 'A good coffee and help some good news'. Needless to say that was the first I me unlocked pls;D

Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often.




Offline Rikkert

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2021, 12:37:47 pm »
The only vibes I get from those videos is a bunch of people who can't block charge at each other with very little thought behind it.

But on a more serious note, the meta of this game has simply evolved beyond what you see in those videos. I don't necessarily believe that the meta you're describing was better or more entertaining, it just seems like complete chaos and randomness to me. Neither do I believe that different or more interesting maps are going to change the meta in any meaningful way. A map being interesting or not does not change whether a weaker regiment can run from melee or not. Yes, retreating up a hill could potentially slow the regiment down, but that seems like such a specific scenario that I doubt the actual impact it would have on the meta. If regiments want to retreat from melee like that, they will simply make sure they're not positioned in a way where their only way of retreat is up a big hill. Tbh, I think it is perfectly understandable for a regiment with weaker melee to run away from the stronger regiment in a 2v2. It is really annoying to play against, but as long as you don't retreat like 2Lr did last time I have nothing against it. I think the map terrain was mostly fine in the last 2v2, although it wouldn't hurt to make the hills slightly more pronounced. You don't want super hilly maps because then the sides will just camp. You also don't want super flat maps with no cover, because then one of the two sides will stand in spawn and shoot. You want slight rolling hills everywhere or alternatively one big hill in the middle that both sides can reach around the same time, with some smaller hills for cover around it. I agree that the maps were definitely too big last time tho, this didn't help the problem of regiments running around the map, but Kincaid already said he was working on that.

Edit: for anyone that didn't see the 2Lr shit last year
[close]
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 12:49:33 pm by Rikkert »

Offline 33rdKincaid

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2021, 01:02:53 pm »
The only vibes I get from those videos is a bunch of people who can't block charge at each other with very little thought behind it.

But on a more serious note, the meta of this game has simply evolved beyond what you see in those videos. I don't necessarily believe that the meta you're describing was better or more entertaining, it just seems like complete chaos and randomness to me. Neither do I believe that different or more interesting maps are going to change the meta in any meaningful way. A map being interesting or not does not change whether a weaker regiment can run from melee or not. Yes, retreating up a hill could potentially slow the regiment down, but that seems like such a specific scenario that I doubt the actual impact it would have on the meta. If regiments want to retreat from melee like that, they will simply make sure they're not positioned in a way where their only way of retreat is up a big hill. Tbh, I think it is perfectly understandable for a regiment with weaker melee to run away from the stronger regiment in a 2v2. It is really annoying to play against, but as long as you don't retreat like 2Lr did last time I have nothing against it. I think the map terrain was mostly fine in the last 2v2, although it wouldn't hurt to make the hills slightly more pronounced. You don't want super hilly maps because then the sides will just camp. You also don't want super flat maps with no cover, because then one of the two sides will stand in spawn and shoot. You want slight rolling hills everywhere or alternatively one big hill in the middle that both sides can reach around the same time, with some smaller hills for cover around it. I agree that the maps were definitely too big last time tho, this didn't help the problem of regiments running around the map, but Kincaid already said he was working on that.

Edit: for anyone that didn't see the 2Lr shit last year
[close]

Worth bearing in mind a rule was added mid tournie to deal with this 2Lr related issue above, which did seem to work in future matches. Aye I will be addressing the maps - they were a good size for the monster matches which went on between teams like 14e/84e and 33rd/92nd but they were excessive for smaller matches so I'll be adding in some smaller maps as opposed to removing the larger ones entirely (just incase!).

I'll reserve any finer judement as I can't see the videos rn but having read Rikkert's response its what I expected - as he says the game has just evolved. Smaller maps will assist in making the rounds more concise and contained but playing for every small advantage possible is a valid way to play, unless it involves excessive camping of course which our rule set takes into account :)

Sorry for the brief response - busy busy busy...

Edit: I'm certainly open to the idea of an exciting 2 Div League if we can seed it well - thanks for the input Tardet.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 01:15:12 pm by 33rdKincaid »

Offline Tardet

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2021, 02:37:16 pm »
The only vibes I get from those videos is a bunch of people who can't block charge at each other with very little thought behind it.

Just when I thought you would like it out of all people as it sums up your gameplay to perfection.

But on a more serious note, the meta of this game has simply evolved beyond what you see in those videos. I don't necessarily believe that the meta you're describing was better or more entertaining, it just seems like complete chaos and randomness to me. Neither do I believe that different or more interesting maps are going to change the meta in any meaningful way. A map being interesting or not does not change whether a weaker regiment can run from melee or not. Yes, retreating up a hill could potentially slow the regiment down, but that seems like such a specific scenario that I doubt the actual impact it would have on the meta. If regiments want to retreat from melee like that, they will simply make sure they're not positioned in a way where their only way of retreat is up a big hill. Tbh, I think it is perfectly understandable for a regiment with weaker melee to run away from the stronger regiment in a 2v2. It is really annoying to play against, but as long as you don't retreat like 2Lr did last time I have nothing against it. I think the map terrain was mostly fine in the last 2v2, although it wouldn't hurt to make the hills slightly more pronounced. You don't want super hilly maps because then the sides will just camp. You also don't want super flat maps with no cover, because then one of the two sides will stand in spawn and shoot. You want slight rolling hills everywhere or alternatively one big hill in the middle that both sides can reach around the same time, with some smaller hills for cover around it. I agree that the maps were definitely too big last time tho, this didn't help the problem of regiments running around the map, but Kincaid already said he was working on that.

I am not denying the meta has evolved but you must be some sort of masochist adept of a dark cult if you actually enjoy the current meta of 1v1/2v2 linebattles more than what you played in 2012/2013. For instance, nobody would argue the game's way more skilled than it used to be in 2012/2014 but thinking what we have now is actually more entertaining - in the literal sense of the word - really surprise me coming from you. I don't argue that it was better as it's purely subjective but as someone who actually played both for years, there is no denying that the way to play linebattles back in the day was more enjoyable. Not more skilled, definitely not more tactical but more enjoyable without a doubt. An indisputable majority of the OG players that came back to the game (leaders especially) will tell you they despise the way the meta evolved and again, it's not necessarily a bias as they will also agree on other indisputable, better aspect of the current competitive community.

I literally pointed out that doing any of what I mentioned above won't change the way people play and yeah, it's obvious a weaker regiment in melee is going to try and avoid it as much as possible to get themselves a better chance, the point was - and you mentioned it yourself perfectly - to avoid maps that heavily encourage to do that every round, for an extended amount of time. There is literally zero skill, absolute ZERO skill in telling your men to follow you, spread and run away. There is however a tactical aspect in making the best of a terrain you'd be given to out-manoeuvre and out-shoot your opponent and the only thing I'd actively be pushing is to force the leaders not to freak out when they see trees, hills, rivers or anything that differs from the ever-boring random desert medium size. The end of your post is - again - exactly what I had in mind and is generally a fairly good description of the maps played in the two videos I showed. There are probably matches that were like that in the last 2v2 as I clearly wasn't there for every single one of them, but I don't think it was an overwhelming majority.

Doing these things is not going to change the way people play Rikkert, I know that. But it will definitely be adding some flavour back for some of the oldest players that miss these sort of environments while not affecting the general meta to an extend where we would literally be back to 2012 which I agree nobody would want to see happening.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 02:38:54 pm by Tardet »
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often.




Offline John Price

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2021, 02:38:25 pm »
I think a 2 Div system might work better, but before you decide anything best just see how many sign ups this gets. That will intice more and more people to "get involved" (-_-).

In fairness Tardet that first video you posted I have ofc seen before but its not a great example of the old times XD
Knightmare is from Albania, no?
Sorry, I can't accept this team.

Offline Tardet

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Re: 2v2 Tournie format discussion
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2021, 02:41:31 pm »
I think a 2 Div system might work better, but before you decide anything best just see how many sign ups this gets. That will intice more and more people to "get involved" (-_-).

In fairness Tardet that first video you posted I have ofc seen before but its not a great example of the old times XD
The first video was mostly there to show that you can have entertaining 2v2s on maps that have trees and slightly medium hills. I'd take that match over 80% of the 2v2s I have seen in the last two years and it's not even close. You obviously can't strictly compare it to nowadays linebattles as people are more skilled in the current community and we don't use FiC no more which contributes for a lot of the chaotic gameplay. Call me crazy for it all you want for preferring that though, I don't mind!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 02:45:20 pm by Tardet »
Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often.