Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 519873 times)

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Offline Olafson

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Oh please, the murder rate in the US is 4.3 times higher than the murder rate in Germany or 5.57 times higher than the murder rate in the Netherlands... 

Is the US save? Yes! Is the EU save? Yes!
And it is true, it is probably the safest time on the European continent since like ever.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 09:21:53 pm by Olafson »

Offline Riddlez

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Terror attacks are nothing new in Europe, it is, admittedly, in a form that is rather new, but then again, one cannot expect something like this to stay the same.

ANd Europe doesn't have to have an airtight grip on ISIS to be safe, the terror attacks are sporadic, most of them are not even linked to ISIS (except people claiming they do it in name of, which is bad in and on intself, but really there is no securing against lone wolfs like that - they would've found another excuse to kill people, this time it was ISIS). Yes what Breedlove said is very worrying indeed, but the fact the EU has identified 1500 ISIS fighters says something about the security services in Europe, be it individually. And really, going off the claims of a single 'ISIS operative' to take a wild guess at how many ISIS fighters are in Europe is letting yourself fall prey to fear, which is exactly what the goal of terrorists is.

They will not by a long shot even come remotely close to destabalising Europe by the rate at which they're going through us, not even remotely close.
Not to downplay the impact terrorist attacks have on individual ives - they're horrible and ruin families - they are insignificant losses when compared to the death toll caused by smoking, car accidents or people falling down stairs.

If I were to claim car accidents will bring down the stability of Europe and make a serious argument about it, I'd be put in a mental hospital. But somehow, we think terrorists will conquer the lands of Europe and have of force-choked on the qu'ran in a matter of years...


And while ISIS fighters posed a refugees on 13/11, they were still French. THe Brussels attacks were performed by Belgiums... Nice attacks were performed by a Tunesian who had been living in France since 2005 (6 years before the Syrian civil war started)
Granted the German 2016 attacks were performed by someone who entered as a refugee, but that is it for the larger terror attacks. The rest were so small scaled and only perpetrated in name of ISIS rather than the terrorists themselves being likely to actually have been part of ISIS that I still cannot see the point of how enormous a threat ISIS is to the EU.

Yes, they must be fought. Yes, major resources should be made available to counter-terrorism. But no, it is not a significant stability threat to European countries.
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline Olafson

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The IRA was more of threat than ISIS ever was/will be.

Offline Theodin

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The IRA was more of threat than ISIS ever was/will be.
When you look in mirrors do you even see yourself?

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Offline Karth

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The IRA was more of threat than ISIS ever was/will be.
Err wouldn't go to that extent...

Offline Olafson

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I am talking about ISIS operations in the EU. Ofc they are a large threat in the middle east and if they manage to get an actual stable foothold there, that would be a major problem, but as it stands right now with occasional sporadic terrorist attacks, they pose no huge threat.

I mean sure, I see your point and my comparison is not the best... All I am saying is that the IRA did this shit for 30 years.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 09:39:11 pm by Olafson »

Offline LiquidSkorpion

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IRA has killed roughly 3700 people in its 30 years of existence. ISIS has killed roughly 400 in Europe in 3 years.

Offline Olafson

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So multiply that by ten and you get roughly the same count...

Edit:

Also, I count "just" 278 people killed by ISIS since 2013.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 09:48:19 pm by Olafson »

Offline LiquidSkorpion

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Yeah. Wasnt trying to discredit it.

Figures differ on the source, hence the roughly. Also, im pretty sure the 400 is with Turkey as well, otherwise it is moreso 300ish.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 10:01:36 pm by LiquidSkorpion »

Offline Edwin

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Oh please, the murder rate in the US is 4.3 times higher than the murder rate in Germany or 5.57 times higher than the murder rate in the Netherlands... 

Is the US save, yes! Is the EU save, yes!
And it is true, it is probably the safest time on the European continent since like ever.

I fear you've fallen victim to the media or the words of Barrack Obama. Between January 2009 and December 2015 the European Union suffered 303 deaths from mass public shootings, while the US had 199. These mass shootings are defined as an attacked in a public place where four or more people are killed.


As you can see, the EU isn't exactly as free from political extremists and school shooters (the American favourites) as you'd like to believe. I wouldn't start drawing comparisons, personally.

And while ISIS fighters posed a refugees on 13/11, they were still French. THe Brussels attacks were performed by Belgiums... Nice attacks were performed by a Tunesian who had been living in France since 2005 (6 years before the Syrian civil war started)
Granted the German 2016 attacks were performed by someone who entered as a refugee, but that is it for the larger terror attacks. The rest were so small scaled and only perpetrated in name of ISIS rather than the terrorists themselves being likely to actually have been part of ISIS that I still cannot see the point of how enormous a threat ISIS is to the EU.

ISIS isn't an ideology, however the home grown terrorists kill in the same name as them. Killing in the name of "ISIS" isn't a far stretch different from killing in the name of Islam itself. As Steven Chilton pointed out before, ISIS is very much driven by their conservative and traditional interpretation of Islam. I'm not claiming that ISIS are going to bring the EU to heel, but it stands to reason than the refugees are much more susceptible to radicalization after they are abandoned by EU governments after being let through the front door, and as a result, more likely to commit further mass
murders (which you incorrectly stated they haven't done already). As for the French ( ;D ) terrorists:

Cut the virtue signalling bullshit Riddlez
[close]

The IRA was more of threat than ISIS ever was/will be.

The difference being the IRA had a specific goal and weren't killing strictly in the name of religion. Moreso, the IRA were made up of Irish born fighters and were not imported to Europe by silly idealistic leftists like yourself.

Jesus Christ Olafson, you fucking ooze white guilt. That's the fine German curriculum for you (I have a friend in Germany who attends public high school, he goes into great detail about it. Funny stuff).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 01:48:03 am by GovernorRickPerry »

Offline Theodin

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I wonder, how many of those terror attacks were committed be people who had recently been radicalized by or in the 6 countries listed? Which may not have been in the travel ban, ofc, but still shows those countries pose security threats

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Offline Olafson

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Eh, but I was not talking about mass shootings. I was talking about the murder rate in general.

Btw. from your own link:
Quote
given the EU’s larger population, the per million people fatality rate for the US and the EU as a whole are virtually identical (0.62 for the US and 0.60 for the EU).  By contrast, the injury rate in the EU is much higher (0.61 for the US and 1.34 for the EU).

So my point still stands, the US is just as save as the EU.

I also was not counting Turkey or any of the other countries that are outside of the EU. Hence the 200ish count.

Offline MrTiki

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Conway, would you mind sharing your source? Just curious as to where you can find out the specific details of each terrorist attack etc.

Also RickPerry, you realise that the EU has over double the US population right? That's including the Paris attacks, which are single handedly half of the total number killed. I'm not saying not to include it, but if you were to look up until October 2015 instead it'd be a ridiculous difference (over twice as many deaths per capita in the US if I'm not mistaken). If you were to extend it to include 2016, you'd have a massive relative drop in the EU and a massive increase in the US (Orlando etc).

Now, if you look at total number of mass shootings, in the past 50 years (until the end of 2016) there have only been 90 in the US (by your metric). That being said, there have only been ~292 in the entire rest of the world.

If you have a point to make you can make statistics say whatever you want.

Offline Olafson

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I looked it up earlier and it seems that most Terrorist attacks in Europe and the US are caused/have been caused by separatist movements (Right wing/Left wing bullshit), now I tried to find the link again but I just can not find the source.
But this is what I remember. Tell me if I am wrong, I might remember it wrong.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 02:46:37 am by Olafson »

Offline Edwin

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Btw. from your own link:
Quote
given the EU’s larger population, the per million people fatality rate for the US and the EU as a whole are virtually identical (0.62 for the US and 0.60 for the EU).  By contrast, the injury rate in the EU is much higher (0.61 for the US and 1.34 for the EU).

So my point still stands, the US is just as save as the EU.

Depends on who you are, since EU attacks tend to claim more lives thus increasing the chance someone like you and I are caught up in them:

Spoiler
Deaths from mass public shootings where at least 15 people have been killed (1970 through January 30, 2017)

[close]

I'd encourage you to read the list of the largest mass shootings throughout the world:

Religion of peace

Also RickPerry, you realise that the EU has over double the US population right? That's including the Paris attacks, which are single handedly half of the total number killed. I'm not saying not to include it, but if you were to look up until October 2015 instead it'd be a ridiculous difference (over twice as many deaths per capita in the US if I'm not mistaken). If you were to extend it to include 2016, you'd have a massive relative drop in the EU and a massive increase in the US (Orlando etc).

I can make it fairer, if you'd like:

Quote
"Obama doesn’t need to look any further than France, which last year suffered 532 casualties (killings and woundings) versus 396 in the US during the first seven full years of the Obama administration from 2009 through 2015."

get culturally enriched
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 02:59:27 am by GovernorRickPerry »