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The Lounge => Historical Discussion => Historical Reenactment => Topic started by: Duuring on October 10, 2016, 05:44:54 pm

Title: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Duuring on October 10, 2016, 05:44:54 pm
Because we seem to scatter generic discussions on re-enactment on a handful of threads, we might as well have one with that distinct purpose. As always, I'll bitch about stuff. Please, join me in my bitching

Discussion topic to start us off (You can completely ignore it and start another one): Tents. A necessary item or a sheer unhistorical luxury? I haven't used an A-tent since 2014, and it's really do-able. ACW and WW1 have shelters, and in Napoleonic you just sleep next to the fire with your whole uniform+blanket and you're fine. No, it's not comfortable, but re-enactment isn't supposed to be that - isn't it all about experiencing how these men lived?
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: joer5835 on October 10, 2016, 06:21:25 pm
I believe tents are absolutely fine for two personal reasons:

1. Storage. People steal things. It actually happens at events. So having a place where I can at least hide my belongings when I am not in camp is rather nice. And yes true, they are still not safe, but in tents you can actually place items out of sight. And generally, it's harder to go into a tent, take something out and get away unnoticed.

2. Weather protection. Look, I get that we try to get as close to these guys from the past as we can. So if it rains, you are out in the rain. But still, I don't particulary fancy sitting at home sick, missing a week of Uni because I got a serious cold from sleeping in the rain because I had no tent, shelter or anything to cover me. A tent at least protects me from that. Same with really cold temperates or cold, hard wind.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Duuring on October 10, 2016, 08:03:17 pm
Well, obviously they are fine - I'm not saying we ought to rip off people's heads for using a tent.

People might steal things, but at the same time I just either leave everything of value at home, in someone's cartrunk or in my backpack that I always keep with me. The only things of value you ought to bring to a re-enactment are things like wallets, keys, documents and the like, which are small and easily kept in a bag.

You don't actually get a cold from bad weather, that's a common misconception. Obviously you can get hypothermia or something, but you really don't get hypothermia from sleeping outside in cold weather. The human body is quite capable of handling cold weather. Obviously we're not used to it, and yes you might get shitty evening with little sleep, but you get used to it. I can understand people of 30+ getting tents and field beds, because they have a much harder time adapting. But we're young and fit - we're tired and sore for a day or two and then we're fine.

My point is not that everyone should start burning their tent, because I don't care what other people do. My point is that it's actually not thát shitty to sleep without a tent, when done properly, and it improves the re-enactment experience greatly.

Of course, nobody should be sleeping outside, in a tent or no tent, during winter months. Because there was, or there ought to have been, no campaigns in the winter.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Olafson on October 11, 2016, 12:28:38 am
If you only bring what you can carry on yourself, then no one is going to be able to steal anything, because it will always be around you.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Riddlez on October 15, 2016, 04:14:15 pm
From a non-re-enactor perspective I can understand where you're coming from, Duuring and I'd probably try to imitate the sleeping situation as best as I could, too.

Buit, on the other hand, Aren't there some genius modern-day tricks out there with modern-day stuff, but hidden cleverly so it still looks accurate?

I have slept outside twice for roughly a week now, and I found (with the proper (hehe, modern) equipment, I am sleeping better in the woods than I do at home.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Duuring on October 16, 2016, 07:23:31 pm
Using modern-day things and hiding them is not what re-enactment is (or at least should) be about.

Yes, sleeping in the woods in 2016 Dutch army equipment (and I presume also in a tent) is not hard. No surprise there.  :P

(Edit: That sounded a little more agressive then I intended. Added a smiley to show I'm a nice person)
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Cara on October 17, 2016, 02:41:51 pm
Tents are a necessary accomodation for us modern peoples who weren't used to live harshly. I agree that it should be always shared because personnal tents are not even historical for a general... However, if you do "Living History" events (reenacters who signed the "Living-History Charter") you won't get a tent, you will sleep as they did : in a barn or even outside with your overcoart and near the fire ! :)
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Duuring on October 17, 2016, 06:03:52 pm
I didn't sign any charter. Is it that thing Marc Middleton made/is always praising?

Tents were historically shared with 4 to 8 people, depending on the type. Personal tents are historical for generals and other senior officers. They even often had wagons with furniture and personal supplies as well.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: GeneralSquirts on October 17, 2016, 06:06:23 pm
Quote from: Duuring on October 17, 2016, 06:03:52 pm
I didn't sign any charter.

Tents should historically be shared with 4 to 8 people, depending on the type.

I'd share a tent with you any day duuring.  :-*

Spoiler
no homosexual intent
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Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Duuring on October 17, 2016, 06:07:08 pm
Quote from: GeneralSquirts on October 17, 2016, 06:06:23 pm
Quote from: Duuring on October 17, 2016, 06:03:52 pm
I didn't sign any charter.

Tents should historically be shared with 4 to 8 people, depending on the type.

I'd share a tent with you any day duuring.  :-*

 ;D

Quote
Spoiler
no homosexual intent
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 :'( :'(
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Olafson on October 17, 2016, 07:08:55 pm
French tents were first shared with 8 and then later in the war with 15 guys. If they even made it to the front, which they never did.

Who needs a tent anyway. If you have a blanket or two that is all you really need. They probably would not have had a blanket, but it is reasonable to assume that some of them might have had one, and even if they did not, its is still by miles better than a tent. It also requires less space and you can put it on your backpack. A proper wool blanket even covers you from rain (tho heavy rain will still be a pain ofc).
Take a slightly thinner blanket with you, the thick ones are nice, but they are way to heavy and way to large. Or you could also just take a half blanket with you. You know, the things they actually issued in WW1 and such, not a 2m long blanket, but one that covers your feet and most of you upper body.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Cara on October 17, 2016, 07:27:32 pm
Quote from: Duuring on October 17, 2016, 06:03:52 pm
I didn't sign any charter. Is it that thing Marc Middleton made/is always praising?

Tents were historically shared with 4 to 8 people, depending on the type. Personal tents are historical for generals and other senior officers. They even often had wagons with furniture and personal supplies as well.

Yes it is. And as Olafson said too, you won't find tents for an army in campaign. It was enough difficult to have the supplies follow that they didn't use wagons to carry a tent for 8 ppl (imagine nearly 400 tents for a single regiment !). Even senior officers and generals didn't have always a tent, they mostly slept in houses. If they were in a tent it was shared with aides etc.

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi52.tinypic.com%2Fabrqmd.jpg&hash=c54a366fa3402e5a9a431ab7e8ccb30c4a565874)

(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.histoire-en-questions.fr%2Fpremier-empire%2Fhabillement%2Fdormir1.jpg&hash=f0abc5982a3ca0cf17a65f842d699fa2e26710c9)
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Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Duuring on October 17, 2016, 08:25:09 pm
Officers simply did as they pleased with their personal bagage. They were officers, of course - who would tell them otherwise? In '1812', it's described with much detail, with one colonel taking no less then twelve wagons, including supplywagons to feed his horses.

Do you have actual examples of officers sharing their tents with (lower-ranking) aides? Doesn't sound very 19th-century-class-society-ish.

Quote
. They probably would not have had a blanket, but it is reasonable to assume that some of them might have had one

I know of at least two period drawings with men in greatcoats having an additional role on their backpack, and I also remember some French instruction on how a blanket was supposed to go inside the top of the backpack, hanging slighty out.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Cara on October 17, 2016, 08:34:20 pm
Sure Duuring, both situations are true indeed. Actually I could give you exact quotes from Memories (Vigo-Rousillon, Bourgogne...) where they explain that (it depends the campaings for sure) they shared a tent with the other bataillon officers for example. 19th-century-class society didn't apply exactly in the French army from 1789 to 1807/1808 where a lot of officiers were not aristocratic people. With the Empire, it changed when marechals and general de brigade were the new nobles and then had servants, lived in the local palaces even in campaign.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: joer5835 on October 17, 2016, 08:42:16 pm
The Revolution caused that a lot of the officer corps in the French army was made up of middle class citizens and some even normal soldiers that advanced through battlefield comissions. It probably was not common, but also not impossible that officers did sleep in tents with aides. 
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Mr T on October 17, 2016, 08:47:13 pm
Very much depended on the individual officer pretty much, the French officer corps was very meritocratic, though slightly less so under the Empire.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Duuring on October 17, 2016, 09:35:27 pm
A change from the old rigid system of the 18th century doesn't mean it was close to our current culture. They might not have based their differences on birthright, but, as Mr T said, on merit. There was still a divide between officers and other ranks. It has nothing to do with arisocratcy, just with class differences. People were supposed to know their place in society.

Junior officers, on paper, did share their tents (if I remember correctly). Chefs and above didn't, at least not on paper. Only generals had aides.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Riddlez on October 17, 2016, 11:03:31 pm
Can confirm indeed that modern day army shit is comfortable to sleep in. I sleep better in the field than at home.

 :-*
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Bluehawk on October 18, 2016, 01:15:43 am
In the memoirs of Rafail Zotov, an ensign in the St. Petersburg Militia, they built their own hut-like shelters out of branches and leaves on several occasions, while marching from St. Petersburg to the independent corps of Wittgenstein (prior to the 2nd Battle of Polotsk). He remarked that their ability to keep out the rain left something to be desired. On the night before the battle however, both the men and officers laid down to sleep where they stood, completely exposed on the field.

As they advanced toward the town itself, Zotov describes trenches and shelters built by the French which were potentially meant to withstand the whole winter of 1812-1813, which were complete with furniture, doors and windows, all stolen from the nearby villages.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Olafson on October 18, 2016, 01:33:16 am
Makeshift shelters were a very common thing and there are lot of descriptions of it, not only from the Napoleonic Wars but also from other wars. I believe one of the Prussian NCO manual even had a drawing and a description on how to construct such a shelter.
There are also a dozen of original drawings and paintings showing these shelters.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Cara on October 18, 2016, 07:16:08 am
Like these ones
Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa406.idata.over-blog.com%2F3%2F25%2F37%2F18%2FBase-de-donnee%2FGA.jpg&hash=f77780420ba7b99d412040b6a38b86d24a6b5a0f)
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I had another picture with straw schelters but I can't find it.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Wolff on October 18, 2016, 04:57:46 pm
Quote from: Olafson on October 18, 2016, 01:33:16 am
I believe one of the Prussian NCO manual even had a drawing and a description on how to construct such a shelter.

you can even find a picture of this "official" shelter and a manual to build it in one osprey book. Sadly it seems pretty hard to rebuild one today for reenactments becaus you need very long straw wich you mostly don't have no more in germany in western europe. It might be possible to import some from more eastern countries where they didn't breed the wheatstalks to get shorter and shorter but that would some kind of a massive effort.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Olafson on October 18, 2016, 05:51:55 pm
Quote from: Carabino on October 18, 2016, 07:16:08 am
Like these ones
Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa406.idata.over-blog.com%2F3%2F25%2F37%2F18%2FBase-de-donnee%2FGA.jpg&hash=f77780420ba7b99d412040b6a38b86d24a6b5a0f)
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I had another picture with straw schelters but I can't find it.

Yeah exactly. Lots of drawings show shelters made with blanks or doors.
Which makes sense. I remember there is a description from a British soldier during the american war of independence that explained how a country side looked like after an army has been camping there for a day.
Apparently all fences were deconstructed and used to either construct shelters or as firewood, all animals were slaughtered and the bones were just thrown anywhere, trees chopped down, all wheat or other plants chopped down to make comfy beds or roofs for shelters etc.

Basically the local population wouldn't have had anything left to live from. All their livestock would be dead and all their plants would be gone.
Title: Re: Duuring's Generic Re-enactment Discussion Corner (Bitching be allowed)
Post by: Cara on October 18, 2016, 06:46:08 pm
Sadly it was like this yeah... And sometimes the army paid the price, as the Grande Armée forced to take the same way back and everything was destroyed before by themselves