Author Topic: Remove horseback firing  (Read 5868 times)

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Offline James Stewart

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Offline Japan

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2012, 01:00:15 am »
The cavalry are fine.
The only thing i want change is Cuirassier. i want them to survive a bullet shot.(Not gonna happen)

Offline Oposum

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2012, 01:25:03 pm »
I think we all can agree to that getting point blanked is neither fun, nor is it balanced. The accuracy of firearms from horseback whilst going at full speed is, quite frankly, to high. It happens frequently in public play that dragoons will ride up to you, gamble a shot and then retreat to reload.
As it has been said before, nerfing the accuracy even more won't make any difference - because you're already getting shot from point blank without careful aiming, where accuracy doesn't matter at all.

However, being able to attack quickly is vital for dragoons in linebattles. Halting quickly near a enemy line, giving them a volley and then retreating is one of the most effective ways for dragoons to deal with infantry in lines, seeing how pathetic they are in melee. Dismounting far away and taking potshots as skirmishers is not effective. As such, keeping the capability to fire from horseback, but significantly nerf the accuracy whilst moving might be a good idea.
As it has been, also, said before, giving dragoons dedicated role as either medium cavalry or mounted infantry would benefit the class far more than keeping them as annoyance and jack-of-all-trades which sucks in everything.

Offline TheBoberton

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2012, 02:57:28 pm »
I see I'm going to need to dig my solution out from the TW forums again.

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,249543.msg5995018.html#msg5995018
Also, I dare say that a good solution to the dragoon 'problem' is something that will piss most people off;
Give all cavalry some form of firearm, bring dragoons up to par with heavy cavalry, then drop off the accuracy of all cavalry classes.

This would do a few things;
First, it would allow all cavalry to hold their own against dragoons, who currently have a monopoly on mounted firearms.
Second, it would eliminate the distinction between 'normal' cavalry and dragoons, thus getting rid of what is currently a class composed entirely of compromises.
Third, it would allow for infantry to have a more distinct advantage over cavalry in terms of firearm usage, due to all cavalry being less accurate than dragoons are now.
Also, the reducing of accuracy would make firearms more of a weapon to be used in the charge, against massed infantry, rather than something to be used at range against single targets.

Now, before you all start yelling about the whole 'No matter how inaccurate the gun is, point blank blah blah blah..', this also applies to infantry. I dunno about you lads, but I've been point blanked so many times when my attack is about to hit someone, that it's not even funny anymore. I don't think muskets and rifles should be that accurate, surely? We need to remove the ability to walk and fire. I mean, they weren't meant to be used at point blank range, just like the firearms used by cavalry! (If you can't tell that this part is sarcasm, I pity you.)

Offline Thunderstormer

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2012, 06:15:43 am »
What about removing the ability of firing at all on the move (when using a horse) ?

I wouldn't mind seeing the above or removing of shooting from horseback completely.  I would say make them actually useful  horseman.  As of right now I see a majority of dragoon that is see just ride around, shoot point blank at someone(hope you hit them), then ride across the map to reload, then repeat the process.  They never use a sword so you can just ride them down and kill them. 

I find Warband to be a game where you mainly get kills from skill and I find that dragoons are the one class where skill is not needed.(especially with the musketoon)  This is something I would like to see changed but I can live with it the way it is even though it is annoying.
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Offline KillerMongoose

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2012, 03:14:06 pm »
You should make a poll, this is a highly debated issue. I personally don't find dragoons firing from horseback to be a problem. Sure it's annoying, but then again, dying from any bullet is annoying is it not? What makes being shot point blank any more annoying than being picked off from across the map at the start of a linebattle by the worlds luckiest fuckbucket? Dragoons aren't overpowered, to get close enough for these point blanks to be of any remote accuracy would be to get within range of a bayonet, not to mention they have 1 shot. And in the time it takes them to ride away and reload you have time to reload or find cover/teammates. As infantry, when it comes to fighting cavalry your best defense is distance and if you want to survive you should always try to keep your distance from cavalry. Getting into melee with cavalry is the last thing you want to do unless they're idiots who have not the slightest clue how to fight from horseback.

Offline Thunderstormer

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2012, 10:11:05 pm »
You should make a poll, this is a highly debated issue. I personally don't find dragoons firing from horseback to be a problem. Sure it's annoying, but then again, dying from any bullet is annoying is it not? What makes being shot point blank any more annoying than being picked off from across the map at the start of a linebattle by the worlds luckiest fuckbucket? Dragoons aren't overpowered, to get close enough for these point blanks to be of any remote accuracy would be to get within range of a bayonet, not to mention they have 1 shot. And in the time it takes them to ride away and reload you have time to reload or find cover/teammates. As infantry, when it comes to fighting cavalry your best defense is distance and if you want to survive you should always try to keep your distance from cavalry. Getting into melee with cavalry is the last thing you want to do unless they're idiots who have not the slightest clue how to fight from horseback.

I don't think anyone is saying they are overpowered but rather they are underpowered when it comes to melee.  To a dragoon the sword is like that little butter knife that most of the infantry start with.  A majority of people just throw it away or carry it for no reason. (You could also say its like an Infantry shooting but never using their bayonet)  There is a person who plays nothing but dragoon in US1 and he just recently started to use his sword.(he has been playing since June) He is not the only dragoon that I have seen done this as well.   I find that as a clear sign that something is wrong with the class should be changed. 

Like I said above:  Making dragoons decent at melee while making it so they either have to dismount or be completely stopped to fire.(on horseback.)  The latter would be a fair compromise imo while also making the game more enjoyable for everyone.  but I can live with it the way it is.
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Offline Maroon

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2012, 02:30:08 pm »
What about removing the ability of firing at all on the move (when using a horse) ?
As a rather experienced dragoon player myself, I think this is the best solution stated so far. It will get rid of the drive-by's, as you can't fire while moving, yet in a linebattle you can fire while mounted, keeping the dragoon's 'hit and run' tactic.
And sorry to say, Bob, but giving all cav guns is in no way a good solution imo. It takes all that is unique from all cav classes, it gives every class the opertunity to drive-by, and, although not very important, it is extremely historically inaccurate.

Offline The Norseman

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2012, 02:38:10 pm »
I have only had time to read the last post, but whoever suggested giving all cav guns, NO, just NO. That would ruin the game and even more people would use them. There are enough problems(Well not problems, but they are a pain in the arse) with cavalry with guns as it is.
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Offline TheBoberton

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2012, 03:02:45 pm »
It takes all that is unique from all cav classes

There's something unique about all the cavalry classes? Lancers and hussars can both do the same thing, and the same applies to cuirassiers and unarmored heavy cavalry
The only real unique class is the dragoon, and it's unique simply by the fact that it's complete shite. It is literally a compromise mounted on a compromise.

it gives every class the opertunity to drive-by

Every class already has the opportunity to drive-by. What every class (Especially the heavies) doesn't have is the ability to defend themselves from a drive-by. (Play as heavy cavalry for a few maps, and you'll see what I mean.)

although not very important, it is extremely historically inaccurate.

Nobody seems to listen when I say that most cavalry (In the French army, at least) carried firearms.

Offline Maroon

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2012, 05:30:53 pm »
There's something unique about all the cavalry classes? Lancers and hussars can both do the same thing, and the same applies to cuirassiers and unarmored heavy cavalry
The only real unique class is the dragoon, and it's unique simply by the fact that it's complete shite. It is literally a compromise mounted on a compromise.

Lancers: have lances. (obviousity is obvious);
Hussars: extra quick, a tad less melee damage;
Heavy cav: slow, but strong, sometimes with extra armor;
Dragoons: Has a bit of it all, which makes it a jack of all trades. I've played a few linebattles as French Dragoons, and when played right, they can kick ass in ranged and melee.

Which kinda makes every class different. Giving them all firearms, next to the few pistols they have now, will give very unbalanced classes. A cavalry player with a lance and a musket? What?

Every class already has the opportunity to drive-by. What every class (Especially the heavies) doesn't have is the ability to defend themselves from a drive-by. (Play as heavy cavalry for a few maps, and you'll see what I mean.)

How does giving every class more opportunity to drive-by protect them from drive-by's? By having all cavalry players charging at eachother while pointing muskets in eachother's faces?

Offline Danik

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2013, 01:21:28 pm »
No... don't use the excuse of making the game more skill-based and balanced to make it at the expense of historical accuracy and fun. Should we also remove the possibility to hit a near target  with musket just because it can lead to point-blank?  What you want is to remove the advantage of one specific class, while every troop class have their own advantage (infantry are also able to hide and point-blank cavalry) so I don't even think it would make the game more balanced or skill-based. Besides infantry, dragoons also did use their guns in cav vs cav fights...

Offline Kator Viridian

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2013, 06:50:27 pm »
In gaming Balance is always valued more than Historical accuracy but it never has to be at its expense at all, the 2 are not linked, Cavalry did fire from Horseback the 16th Light Dragoons (Lancers) (British) were originally Lancers, upon taking up the role of Dragoons in the 1790's they begun their training and such practised with firing at a gallop.

Dragoons already have their bad side, slower horses than the hussars and lancers, and much lower single handed proficiency.

Removing the firing from horseback would be an unbalancement.

Offline Maroon

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2013, 11:50:07 am »
In gaming Balance is always valued more than Historical accuracy but it never has to be at its expense at all, the 2 are not linked, Cavalry did fire from Horseback the 16th Light Dragoons (Lancers) (British) were originally Lancers, upon taking up the role of Dragoons in the 1790's they begun their training and such practised with firing at a gallop.

Dragoons already have their bad side, slower horses than the hussars and lancers, and much lower single handed proficiency.

Removing the firing from horseback would be an unbalancement.
Although Kator and I tend to disagree over cavalry and it's strengths and weaknesses, gotta agree with this :P

Offline KillerMongoose

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2013, 03:08:30 pm »
What if cavalry had to stand still to be able to fire. Think about how hard it would be to operate a flintlock firearm on the back of a galloping horse. I think this solution would be much more logical. Also give guns to the British dragoons, that way British cavalry at least has something.