Author Topic: Remove horseback firing  (Read 11436 times)

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Offline Modig

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Remove horseback firing
« on: November 19, 2012, 08:01:19 pm »
Alot of Napoleonic War's longevity can be thanked for its competitiveness. The game is skill based and balanced, thus whatever other players may throw at you may it be a bayonet, the sword or the pointy end of a lance, you have mostly yourself to blame if you die. Or you could have atleast blocked, stabbed slashed better.

Yet, alas, just like Native's horse archers, one scourge of an unit remains: The Dragoon.

This poor cripple who can bolster strength in neither strength of horse, melee nor firearms is today chosen for only one purpose. To try your luck at the Driveby Lottery.

I love playing the dragoon as a mounted infantry. I love it. But I do it knowing that I possess no extra health, my speed is low, my sword is short and my aim arse.

Therefore I say; Buff the athletics and aim, and remove the horseback firing. Let us enjoy a unit type with a nische and skill than becoming luck-goons with toons.


From the previous topic of "Dragoons are getting ridiculous" on Taleworlds, are following points from dear Oposum:

"Dunno why people complain about dragoons, currently they're the weakest class in game. They're some strange hybrid between melee cav and ranged inf which sucks at shooting and melee (both dismounted and mounted).
Reason why we get so many hit-and-run dragoons is mostly because if they try anything else they will get slaughtered. Once in a blue moon dragoon will get a hit in driveby if he's lucky enough not to get raped by hussars. Dragoons are only somewhat dangerous when in large groups (as is anything else) or when they pull hit-and-run stuff in 1 vs 1.
All in all, dragoons would need some kind of rebalancing to make them actually useful instead of being markers for free kills in public server." (Reference)

"Noones arguing that dragoons or drivebys are overpowered, we are trying to point out that it's annoying part of the game based completely on luck (yes, pointing your horse so your gun is remotely pointing towards enemy is quite easier than actually aiming at something) and should be removed in favor of making dragoons dedicated and useful class instead of the weakest and most annoying class in game. For some reason you're defending shooting from horseback when there's no real reason to do so." (Reference)

"Firing from horseback have always been impossible to balance in Warband, you either got useless class which has only one purpose (to annoy people) or you get far overpowered class which slaughters everything in its way.
Removing firing from horseback while buffing dragoons athletics and 1h skill would turn them into mounted infantry which would be far better than useless class they are now (or turning them into medium cav)." (Reference)


Offline Hugues

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 08:06:40 pm »
They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.
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Offline Tali

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2012, 08:13:23 pm »
They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.

Point-Blanking Drive byes or Musketoon Noobgoons does not require alot of skill, at least when played with the pointblank-ride away-reload mentality.

Dragoons need some love, but I don't think that the complete removal of horseback firing is the way to go.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 08:16:41 pm by Tali »

Offline Gragnok

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2012, 08:20:39 pm »
They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.

He isn't suggesting they are removed from the game.
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Offline Modig

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2012, 08:29:30 pm »
They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.

Point-Blanking Drive byes or Musketoon Noobgoons does not require alot of skill, at least when played with the pointblank-ride away-reload mentality.

Dragoons need some love, but I don't think that the complete removal of horseback firing is the way to go.

Dragoons definitely need some love. But the act of nerfing the dragoon, as in lowering their shooting skills, has no real effect. As touched upon several times in the TW thread,  it doesnt matter how far you run the shooting skill into the ground. The firing arc may be as big as it wants. The bullet doesnt have time to spread anyways with the classical driveby-tactic. Instead the dragoon have become the utter crap of a unit it is now.

There is actually cavalry with more shooting skill than the dragoons, actually, which is just a farce.


They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.

The fact that most cavalrymen carried firearms is commonly known. The cuirassier ingame has a holster for a bayonette for example. But the question of how much and to what degree firing from horseback was practiced in the Napoleonic Wars is controversial and very much up for debate.


They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.

He isn't suggesting they are removed from the game.

Indeed. The suggestion is to remove the ability to fire from horseback and thus all the balance-issues that comes with it and instead turn the dragoon into more of a mounted infantry.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2012, 08:33:20 pm by Modig »

Offline Cherry

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2012, 09:37:28 pm »
I dont think shooting from horseback should be removed, as it is a tradition in cavalry warfare. As you can see in the picture bellow it has been used to grate success in fighting.

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Offline Windbusche

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2012, 09:43:17 pm »
Perhaps make guns ALOT less accurate when firing from horseback.

Offline Kamov

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2012, 09:58:52 pm »
If you removed the musketoon from the dragoons i'm sure most of the drive-bys would stop, maybe then could other things be looked at. Maybe like what has been suggested is to make accuracy even worse on horseback.

Offline Modig

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2012, 11:22:21 pm »
The thing is, removing accuracy has already been tried but doesnt solve the problem. You do not need accuracy when all you have to do is ride close enough to the point where it doesnt matter. That is the problem with firing from horseback.

I dont think shooting from horseback should be removed, as it is a tradition in cavalry warfare. As you can see in the picture bellow it has been used to grate success in fighting.



Thats a wonderfully scientific contribution, Cherry!

Offline zac

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2012, 11:36:37 pm »
but that is the point of dragoons,,granted you could make there weapons more inacturate but in the napoleonic wars they did not normally fire their carbines anyway till they were withing a 100 ywars anyway,,and yes cuirassier's did have bayonet holsters but as far as we know they didnt cary carbines,,carbines are only accurate up to aroudn 40yards anyway,,beleive me i have shot a couple of these at a range,,and experience from reenacting. they are a problem yes but there only doing what there meant to be doing  (i myslef hate the damn musketoon)

Offline Modig

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2012, 11:52:13 pm »
but that is the point of dragoons,,granted you could make there weapons more inacturate but in the napoleonic wars they did not normally fire their carbines anyway till they were withing a 100 ywars anyway,,and yes cuirassier's did have bayonet holsters but as far as we know they didnt cary carbines,,carbines are only accurate up to aroudn 40yards anyway,,beleive me i have shot a couple of these at a range,,and experience from reenacting. they are a problem yes but there only doing what there meant to be doing  (i myslef hate the damn musketoon)

Ah, as historically accurate as it may be, the engine is too faulty to represent that fairly. It is far from historically accurate to be able to shoot your counterpart as easily as you do with the horseback firing. With that said, it is still not as much of a balance issue as that of an annoyance issue. I do not think anyone's historical immersion would get utterly destroyed if they didn't have to get lucked by Russian mob-goons.

Besides, gameplay > historical accurateness, if you have to choose. Both are nice, but you are doing something terribly wrong if you sacrifice gameplay for the sake of historical accurateness.

Offline ThatSillyLucas

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2012, 09:22:40 pm »
no

Offline Pinball Wizard

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2012, 11:46:58 pm »
I second this idea, removing firing from horseback removes a lot of stress, mostly from public players, but also from people hosting events, trying to prevent the unfair use of firing from horseback into lines and trying to prevent silly team kills.

Offline Tali

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2012, 12:39:37 am »
I think we all can agree to that getting point blanked is neither fun, nor is it balanced. The accuracy of firearms from horseback whilst going at full speed is, quite frankly, to high. It happens frequently in public play that dragoons will ride up to you, gamble a shot and then retreat to reload.

However, being able to attack quickly is vital for dragoons in linebattles. Halting quickly near a enemy line, giving them a volley and then retreating is one of the most effective ways for dragoons to deal with infantry in lines, seeing how pathetic they are in melee. Dismounting far away and taking potshots as skirmishers is not effective. As such, keeping the capability to fire from horseback, but significantly nerf the accuracy whilst moving might be a good idea.


Offline Samuel J. Ahonen

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Re: Remove horseback firing
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2012, 01:29:10 pm »
What about removing the ability of firing at all on the move (when using a horse) ?
I, as a dragoon-leader, would love that. Then people might allow me to actually fire from horseback during linebattles (dismounting infront of enemy lines to fire is quite silly).
;)

However, being able to attack quickly is vital for dragoons in linebattles. Halting quickly near a enemy line, giving them a volley and then retreating is one of the most effective ways for dragoons to deal with infantry in lines, seeing how pathetic they are in melee. Dismounting far away and taking potshots as skirmishers is not effective. As such, keeping the capability to fire from horseback, but significantly nerf the accuracy whilst moving might be a good idea.

We played our first LB yesterday. Other folks in our team raged at my cavalry for not engaging the enemy in melee enough. x)
When we played our last map during the LB, there were fallen logs that we had to take cover behind. It was close enough to the enemy hill, so we got some kills from time to time.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 01:54:41 pm by Samuel J. Ahonen »