Flying Squirrel Entertainment
Mount & Blade Warband: Napoleonic Wars => General Discussion => Suggestions & Bug Reports => Topic started by: Modig on November 19, 2012, 08:01:19 pm
-
Alot of Napoleonic War's longevity can be thanked for its competitiveness. The game is skill based and balanced, thus whatever other players may throw at you may it be a bayonet, the sword or the pointy end of a lance, you have mostly yourself to blame if you die. Or you could have atleast blocked, stabbed slashed better.
Yet, alas, just like Native's horse archers, one scourge of an unit remains: The Dragoon.
This poor cripple who can bolster strength in neither strength of horse, melee nor firearms is today chosen for only one purpose. To try your luck at the Driveby Lottery.
I love playing the dragoon as a mounted infantry. I love it. But I do it knowing that I possess no extra health, my speed is low, my sword is short and my aim arse.
Therefore I say; Buff the athletics and aim, and remove the horseback firing. Let us enjoy a unit type with a nische and skill than becoming luck-goons with toons.
From the previous topic of "Dragoons are getting ridiculous (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,249543.0.html)" on Taleworlds, are following points from dear Oposum:
"Dunno why people complain about dragoons, currently they're the weakest class in game. They're some strange hybrid between melee cav and ranged inf which sucks at shooting and melee (both dismounted and mounted).
Reason why we get so many hit-and-run dragoons is mostly because if they try anything else they will get slaughtered. Once in a blue moon dragoon will get a hit in driveby if he's lucky enough not to get raped by hussars. Dragoons are only somewhat dangerous when in large groups (as is anything else) or when they pull hit-and-run stuff in 1 vs 1.
All in all, dragoons would need some kind of rebalancing to make them actually useful instead of being markers for free kills in public server." (Reference (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,249543.msg5967119.html#msg5967119))
"Noones arguing that dragoons or drivebys are overpowered, we are trying to point out that it's annoying part of the game based completely on luck (yes, pointing your horse so your gun is remotely pointing towards enemy is quite easier than actually aiming at something) and should be removed in favor of making dragoons dedicated and useful class instead of the weakest and most annoying class in game. For some reason you're defending shooting from horseback when there's no real reason to do so." (Reference (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,249543.msg6023096.html#msg6023096))
"Firing from horseback have always been impossible to balance in Warband, you either got useless class which has only one purpose (to annoy people) or you get far overpowered class which slaughters everything in its way.
Removing firing from horseback while buffing dragoons athletics and 1h skill would turn them into mounted infantry which would be far better than useless class they are now (or turning them into medium cav)." (Reference (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,249543.msg6007897.html#msg6007897))
-
They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.
-
They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.
Point-Blanking Drive byes or Musketoon Noobgoons does not require alot of skill, at least when played with the pointblank-ride away-reload mentality.
Dragoons need some love, but I don't think that the complete removal of horseback firing is the way to go.
-
They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.
He isn't suggesting they are removed from the game.
-
They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.
Point-Blanking Drive byes or Musketoon Noobgoons does not require alot of skill, at least when played with the pointblank-ride away-reload mentality.
Dragoons need some love, but I don't think that the complete removal of horseback firing is the way to go.
Dragoons definitely need some love. But the act of nerfing the dragoon, as in lowering their shooting skills, has no real effect. As touched upon several times in the TW thread, it doesnt matter how far you run the shooting skill into the ground. The firing arc may be as big as it wants. The bullet doesnt have time to spread anyways with the classical driveby-tactic. Instead the dragoon have become the utter crap of a unit it is now.
There is actually cavalry with more shooting skill than the dragoons, actually, which is just a farce.
They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.
The fact that most cavalrymen carried firearms is commonly known. The cuirassier ingame has a holster for a bayonette for example. But the question of how much and to what degree firing from horseback was practiced in the Napoleonic Wars is controversial and very much up for debate.
They are a historically accurate unit that existed in the Napoleonic Wars, so they shouldn't be removed. Just because you find them all luck-based doesn't mean everyone else does.
He isn't suggesting they are removed from the game.
Indeed. The suggestion is to remove the ability to fire from horseback and thus all the balance-issues that comes with it and instead turn the dragoon into more of a mounted infantry.
-
I dont think shooting from horseback should be removed, as it is a tradition in cavalry warfare. As you can see in the picture bellow it has been used to grate success in fighting.
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.die-cast-toys.com%2Fplastic-soldiers%2Fcherilea%2Fchrl276.jpg&hash=87d2b2118ab74861a2b620a8e1e33800898088d0)
-
Perhaps make guns ALOT less accurate when firing from horseback.
-
If you removed the musketoon from the dragoons i'm sure most of the drive-bys would stop, maybe then could other things be looked at. Maybe like what has been suggested is to make accuracy even worse on horseback.
-
The thing is, removing accuracy has already been tried but doesnt solve the problem. You do not need accuracy when all you have to do is ride close enough to the point where it doesnt matter. That is the problem with firing from horseback.
I dont think shooting from horseback should be removed, as it is a tradition in cavalry warfare. As you can see in the picture bellow it has been used to grate success in fighting.
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.die-cast-toys.com%2Fplastic-soldiers%2Fcherilea%2Fchrl276.jpg&hash=87d2b2118ab74861a2b620a8e1e33800898088d0)
Thats a wonderfully scientific contribution, Cherry!
-
but that is the point of dragoons,,granted you could make there weapons more inacturate but in the napoleonic wars they did not normally fire their carbines anyway till they were withing a 100 ywars anyway,,and yes cuirassier's did have bayonet holsters but as far as we know they didnt cary carbines,,carbines are only accurate up to aroudn 40yards anyway,,beleive me i have shot a couple of these at a range,,and experience from reenacting. they are a problem yes but there only doing what there meant to be doing (i myslef hate the damn musketoon)
-
but that is the point of dragoons,,granted you could make there weapons more inacturate but in the napoleonic wars they did not normally fire their carbines anyway till they were withing a 100 ywars anyway,,and yes cuirassier's did have bayonet holsters but as far as we know they didnt cary carbines,,carbines are only accurate up to aroudn 40yards anyway,,beleive me i have shot a couple of these at a range,,and experience from reenacting. they are a problem yes but there only doing what there meant to be doing (i myslef hate the damn musketoon)
Ah, as historically accurate as it may be, the engine is too faulty to represent that fairly. It is far from historically accurate to be able to shoot your counterpart as easily as you do with the horseback firing. With that said, it is still not as much of a balance issue as that of an annoyance issue. I do not think anyone's historical immersion would get utterly destroyed if they didn't have to get lucked by Russian mob-goons.
Besides, gameplay > historical accurateness, if you have to choose. Both are nice, but you are doing something terribly wrong if you sacrifice gameplay for the sake of historical accurateness.
-
no
-
I second this idea, removing firing from horseback removes a lot of stress, mostly from public players, but also from people hosting events, trying to prevent the unfair use of firing from horseback into lines and trying to prevent silly team kills.
-
I think we all can agree to that getting point blanked is neither fun, nor is it balanced. The accuracy of firearms from horseback whilst going at full speed is, quite frankly, to high. It happens frequently in public play that dragoons will ride up to you, gamble a shot and then retreat to reload.
However, being able to attack quickly is vital for dragoons in linebattles. Halting quickly near a enemy line, giving them a volley and then retreating is one of the most effective ways for dragoons to deal with infantry in lines, seeing how pathetic they are in melee. Dismounting far away and taking potshots as skirmishers is not effective. As such, keeping the capability to fire from horseback, but significantly nerf the accuracy whilst moving might be a good idea.
-
What about removing the ability of firing at all on the move (when using a horse) ?
I, as a dragoon-leader, would love that. Then people might allow me to actually fire from horseback during linebattles (dismounting infront of enemy lines to fire is quite silly).
;)
However, being able to attack quickly is vital for dragoons in linebattles. Halting quickly near a enemy line, giving them a volley and then retreating is one of the most effective ways for dragoons to deal with infantry in lines, seeing how pathetic they are in melee. Dismounting far away and taking potshots as skirmishers is not effective. As such, keeping the capability to fire from horseback, but significantly nerf the accuracy whilst moving might be a good idea.
We played our first LB yesterday. Other folks in our team raged at my cavalry for not engaging the enemy in melee enough. x)
When we played our last map during the LB, there were fallen logs that we had to take cover behind. It was close enough to the enemy hill, so we got some kills from time to time.
-
no
-
The cavalry are fine.
The only thing i want change is Cuirassier. i want them to survive a bullet shot.(Not gonna happen)
-
I think we all can agree to that getting point blanked is neither fun, nor is it balanced. The accuracy of firearms from horseback whilst going at full speed is, quite frankly, to high. It happens frequently in public play that dragoons will ride up to you, gamble a shot and then retreat to reload.
As it has been said before, nerfing the accuracy even more won't make any difference - because you're already getting shot from point blank without careful aiming, where accuracy doesn't matter at all.
However, being able to attack quickly is vital for dragoons in linebattles. Halting quickly near a enemy line, giving them a volley and then retreating is one of the most effective ways for dragoons to deal with infantry in lines, seeing how pathetic they are in melee. Dismounting far away and taking potshots as skirmishers is not effective. As such, keeping the capability to fire from horseback, but significantly nerf the accuracy whilst moving might be a good idea.
As it has been, also, said before, giving dragoons dedicated role as either medium cavalry or mounted infantry would benefit the class far more than keeping them as annoyance and jack-of-all-trades which sucks in everything.
-
I see I'm going to need to dig my solution out from the TW forums again.
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,249543.msg5995018.html#msg5995018 (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,249543.msg5995018.html#msg5995018)
Also, I dare say that a good solution to the dragoon 'problem' is something that will piss most people off;
Give all cavalry some form of firearm, bring dragoons up to par with heavy cavalry, then drop off the accuracy of all cavalry classes.
This would do a few things;
First, it would allow all cavalry to hold their own against dragoons, who currently have a monopoly on mounted firearms.
Second, it would eliminate the distinction between 'normal' cavalry and dragoons, thus getting rid of what is currently a class composed entirely of compromises.
Third, it would allow for infantry to have a more distinct advantage over cavalry in terms of firearm usage, due to all cavalry being less accurate than dragoons are now.
Also, the reducing of accuracy would make firearms more of a weapon to be used in the charge, against massed infantry, rather than something to be used at range against single targets.
Now, before you all start yelling about the whole 'No matter how inaccurate the gun is, point blank blah blah blah..', this also applies to infantry. I dunno about you lads, but I've been point blanked so many times when my attack is about to hit someone, that it's not even funny anymore. I don't think muskets and rifles should be that accurate, surely? We need to remove the ability to walk and fire. I mean, they weren't meant to be used at point blank range, just like the firearms used by cavalry! (If you can't tell that this part is sarcasm, I pity you.)
-
What about removing the ability of firing at all on the move (when using a horse) ?
I wouldn't mind seeing the above or removing of shooting from horseback completely. I would say make them actually useful horseman. As of right now I see a majority of dragoon that is see just ride around, shoot point blank at someone(hope you hit them), then ride across the map to reload, then repeat the process. They never use a sword so you can just ride them down and kill them.
I find Warband to be a game where you mainly get kills from skill and I find that dragoons are the one class where skill is not needed.(especially with the musketoon) This is something I would like to see changed but I can live with it the way it is even though it is annoying.
-
You should make a poll, this is a highly debated issue. I personally don't find dragoons firing from horseback to be a problem. Sure it's annoying, but then again, dying from any bullet is annoying is it not? What makes being shot point blank any more annoying than being picked off from across the map at the start of a linebattle by the worlds luckiest fuckbucket? Dragoons aren't overpowered, to get close enough for these point blanks to be of any remote accuracy would be to get within range of a bayonet, not to mention they have 1 shot. And in the time it takes them to ride away and reload you have time to reload or find cover/teammates. As infantry, when it comes to fighting cavalry your best defense is distance and if you want to survive you should always try to keep your distance from cavalry. Getting into melee with cavalry is the last thing you want to do unless they're idiots who have not the slightest clue how to fight from horseback.
-
You should make a poll, this is a highly debated issue. I personally don't find dragoons firing from horseback to be a problem. Sure it's annoying, but then again, dying from any bullet is annoying is it not? What makes being shot point blank any more annoying than being picked off from across the map at the start of a linebattle by the worlds luckiest fuckbucket? Dragoons aren't overpowered, to get close enough for these point blanks to be of any remote accuracy would be to get within range of a bayonet, not to mention they have 1 shot. And in the time it takes them to ride away and reload you have time to reload or find cover/teammates. As infantry, when it comes to fighting cavalry your best defense is distance and if you want to survive you should always try to keep your distance from cavalry. Getting into melee with cavalry is the last thing you want to do unless they're idiots who have not the slightest clue how to fight from horseback.
I don't think anyone is saying they are overpowered but rather they are underpowered when it comes to melee. To a dragoon the sword is like that little butter knife that most of the infantry start with. A majority of people just throw it away or carry it for no reason. (You could also say its like an Infantry shooting but never using their bayonet) There is a person who plays nothing but dragoon in US1 and he just recently started to use his sword.(he has been playing since June) He is not the only dragoon that I have seen done this as well. I find that as a clear sign that something is wrong with the class should be changed.
Like I said above: Making dragoons decent at melee while making it so they either have to dismount or be completely stopped to fire.(on horseback.) The latter would be a fair compromise imo while also making the game more enjoyable for everyone. but I can live with it the way it is.
-
What about removing the ability of firing at all on the move (when using a horse) ?
As a rather experienced dragoon player myself, I think this is the best solution stated so far. It will get rid of the drive-by's, as you can't fire while moving, yet in a linebattle you can fire while mounted, keeping the dragoon's 'hit and run' tactic.
And sorry to say, Bob, but giving all cav guns is in no way a good solution imo. It takes all that is unique from all cav classes, it gives every class the opertunity to drive-by, and, although not very important, it is extremely historically inaccurate.
-
I have only had time to read the last post, but whoever suggested giving all cav guns, NO, just NO. That would ruin the game and even more people would use them. There are enough problems(Well not problems, but they are a pain in the arse) with cavalry with guns as it is.
-
It takes all that is unique from all cav classes
There's something unique about all the cavalry classes? Lancers and hussars can both do the same thing, and the same applies to cuirassiers and unarmored heavy cavalry
The only real unique class is the dragoon, and it's unique simply by the fact that it's complete shite. It is literally a compromise mounted on a compromise.
it gives every class the opertunity to drive-by
Every class already has the opportunity to drive-by. What every class (Especially the heavies) doesn't have is the ability to defend themselves from a drive-by. (Play as heavy cavalry for a few maps, and you'll see what I mean.)
although not very important, it is extremely historically inaccurate.
Nobody seems to listen when I say that most cavalry (In the French army, at least) carried firearms.
-
There's something unique about all the cavalry classes? Lancers and hussars can both do the same thing, and the same applies to cuirassiers and unarmored heavy cavalry
The only real unique class is the dragoon, and it's unique simply by the fact that it's complete shite. It is literally a compromise mounted on a compromise.
Lancers: have lances. (obviousity is obvious);
Hussars: extra quick, a tad less melee damage;
Heavy cav: slow, but strong, sometimes with extra armor;
Dragoons: Has a bit of it all, which makes it a jack of all trades. I've played a few linebattles as French Dragoons, and when played right, they can kick ass in ranged and melee.
Which kinda makes every class different. Giving them all firearms, next to the few pistols they have now, will give very unbalanced classes. A cavalry player with a lance and a musket? What?
Every class already has the opportunity to drive-by. What every class (Especially the heavies) doesn't have is the ability to defend themselves from a drive-by. (Play as heavy cavalry for a few maps, and you'll see what I mean.)
How does giving every class more opportunity to drive-by protect them from drive-by's? By having all cavalry players charging at eachother while pointing muskets in eachother's faces?
-
No... don't use the excuse of making the game more skill-based and balanced to make it at the expense of historical accuracy and fun. Should we also remove the possibility to hit a near target with musket just because it can lead to point-blank? What you want is to remove the advantage of one specific class, while every troop class have their own advantage (infantry are also able to hide and point-blank cavalry) so I don't even think it would make the game more balanced or skill-based. Besides infantry, dragoons also did use their guns in cav vs cav fights...
-
In gaming Balance is always valued more than Historical accuracy but it never has to be at its expense at all, the 2 are not linked, Cavalry did fire from Horseback the 16th Light Dragoons (Lancers) (British) were originally Lancers, upon taking up the role of Dragoons in the 1790's they begun their training and such practised with firing at a gallop.
Dragoons already have their bad side, slower horses than the hussars and lancers, and much lower single handed proficiency.
Removing the firing from horseback would be an unbalancement.
-
In gaming Balance is always valued more than Historical accuracy but it never has to be at its expense at all, the 2 are not linked, Cavalry did fire from Horseback the 16th Light Dragoons (Lancers) (British) were originally Lancers, upon taking up the role of Dragoons in the 1790's they begun their training and such practised with firing at a gallop.
Dragoons already have their bad side, slower horses than the hussars and lancers, and much lower single handed proficiency.
Removing the firing from horseback would be an unbalancement.
Although Kator and I tend to disagree over cavalry and it's strengths and weaknesses, gotta agree with this :P
-
What if cavalry had to stand still to be able to fire. Think about how hard it would be to operate a flintlock firearm on the back of a galloping horse. I think this solution would be much more logical. Also give guns to the British dragoons, that way British cavalry at least has something.