Author Topic: Developer Blog 28 - Napoleonic Wars Patch 1.2  (Read 3925 times)

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Offline ScreechingSeagull

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Re: Developer Blog 28 - Napoleonic Wars Patch 1.2
« Reply #165 on: Today at 09:50:51 pm »
as for the other stuff.  it will take far more time to add in some sort of option for the servers to change regarding how long you have to wait before you can build than tweaking the time. tbh  i am not really seeing the need to add that option either.   The time was lowered to 1 second.  From what i seen, you can plant props fairly quickly with it.   I added a 2nd error message for when you are trying to plant too quickly.  These are from yesterday.   There isn't much of a point in writing you have to wait .2 seconds to plant a prop.  by the time you look and read the message, you could plant another prop.)

Thanks for revisiting and tweaking the value for the restriction.
The countdown is a moot point if the time is negligible, it looks good.

i am not really seeing a need to color code it either.  Even if you don't read the entire message, one is distinctly longer than the other.  So just out of the corner of your eye you will know which message it is.)

This looks great and easily distinguishable. However, there is still an edge-case that both errors are in effect. We'd get a time error, followed by an unplaceable error. Instead of cycling through 2 errors, it would be appreciated if it both messages showed. That way we only endure 1 error at the minimum, and can move on instead of staying still and failing attempts.

Note: I've re-arranged some quoted sentences to better respond to your points.
If you have a problem with a 2 seconds timer then you were probably spamming build stuff. I don't see how this can be a problem in any way. Moreover, considering that most servers have a very low amount of buildpoints, you must have been stealing quite a lot of buildpoints.
Having fixed the spamming and glitching issues, server owners can now safely increase the number of buildpoints.

I'd already addressed why the 2 second timer matters. The most "spam" I do is quickly correcting my position to place another prop (especially in sieges while under fire from the fortified defenders). I harvest BP from the misplaced/unbuilt props later.
I know how it feels to have no BP because of spammers, I don't use more than my share. My goal is always to be more BP efficient, to do more with less. Being more efficient -> less building to do.

The reason for the small hitbox is that big hitboxes allowed players to build big stacks of props, creating ramps over walls in siege mode, which is the game mode in which sappers are the most useful. It seems that you don't play siege at all as you haven't noticed that this major problem was fixed. The fact that sappers have to hit a smaller area seems to be a very secondary problem in comparison.

I did notice this problem was fixed, and said something along the lines of "the changes cause bigger problems than they fix". I learned most of my sapping from playing sieges. Sappers are very useful in sieges, but just as useful in normal battles.

The rest is a matter of skill, it's really not hard to tell how the sandbags will be built.
I must also add that an unbuilt sandbag at 90% is now a viable defense, so it can server to add another layer of sandbags on top of others.

It is not BP efficient to have unbuilt sandbags. Sandbags are significantly more useful built. Can you elaborate, because I'm baffled at that.

"Properly" built sandbag.
Spoiler
Too tall, blocking line-of-sight.



Build on the left or right?
Spoiler
Even taller/completely obscuring line of sight.


This is so fancy it even comes with a window you can get shot through!


Build slightly offcentre?
Spoiler
It's slanted and useless.

Players are huddled and blocking that intended spot: Do I kick them out of the way? Do I ask in chat to move?
Spoiler
What a waste of time; a negligible issue pre-patch made into a problem.
I could build at that opening instead, nope, slanted.

Where did it go?
Spoiler
Turns out I overshot the distance. I can barely notice this. I can't even fix this without getting in harms way.


Why can't I easily re-harvest that misplaced prop from behind cover like pre-patch let me do?
Even if I follow the instructions completely, and do nothing wrong in the most ideal circumstance, the new sandbags are flawed.

Bug-fixes are great.
Balances to gameplay are great.
Better integrating the time restriction is great.
Arbitrary and Illogical behavior is not.

The implementation of that bug-fix is fundamentally flawed because breaks tenets of game design. From a simple glance, the old sapper props gave an unmistakable expectations for the result. Two sandbags used to consistently and predictably provide useful defensive value. Props had the same width as the constructed one. When a prop was misplaced, you knew right away. You could fix it without much fear of damaging surrounding props.
Spoiler
Post-patch: the props are harder to distinguish, even hiding from you (overshot sandbag). They defy a player's reasonable expectation.

Teamwork is how teams succeed, how volleys/pikewalls succeed, how games are won. Making it harder for sappers to work together is inconsistent with the game. Removing visual context introduces guess-timation, increasing the chance of misplacing a prop (too far apart, and causing a hole in the barricade line). Reducing the hitbox making it much harder to build together, harder to rush-build fences.
Spoiler

That hitbox size all makes the difference between life or death; whether the cav charge bowls over your team, or it is halted by a fence. The small hitbox restricts positioning if you want to build. It lets opponents snipe you easier.

Every miss on the small hitbox/mis-swing of the axe is time not building.
Every second matters (in sieges especially). They might sound miniscule, but slightest mistake means you're dead; causing a long walk back to the front or waiting to respawn. Time that sappers aren't supporting the team.

Sandbags are too high? Visual inconsistency is confusing? Teamwork is hindered? You're just not good enough and unskilled.

Core sapper gameplay is not a "very secondary problem in comparison". Placing and building props is what sapping is! Calling it a "matter of skill" is a lazy excuse to dismiss the real and significant implications that disproportionately handicap sappers who are trying to build "normally".

Expecting sappers to cope with these changes; to be practically perfect with our swings and placement (under heavy fire) is unreasonable.

I agree that glitches are a problem, but implementing poorly designed props is not the answer. Those two goals should not be mutually exclusive of the other in an ideal setting. I would be more than happy to help the devs make props that BOTH remain intuitive/practical AND fix the glitch. However, there probably won't be more hotfixes to iterate and properly fix the flawed new props, which is why I want the pre-patch props to be restored.
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Offline Olafson

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Re: Developer Blog 28 - Napoleonic Wars Patch 1.2
« Reply #166 on: Today at 10:05:41 pm »
I have already voted for changing sapper props back to what they were.
I actually do not know why they were changed from the props I made several years ago.
I did not make or approve this change. I actually believe that it is kinda silly, a half chevaux defrise not only looks stupid, it is also extremly difficult to guess where I am going to build...

Online MaxLam

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Re: Developer Blog 28 - Napoleonic Wars Patch 1.2
« Reply #167 on: Today at 11:12:42 pm »
If a half cheval de frise "looks stupid", then what does a bridge made of 100 unbuilt chevaux de frise looks like? The way props were made had always been a problem, causing great imbalance in sieges. When I used to play as a sapper on 33rd siege, I could completely break a map with a few props put on the right place. You only needed 3 planks and a sandbag and you got a high ramp that could get you over a wall, or even an invisible wall. Players could spam chevaux-de-frise and build a flying bridge where there should be none. As a consequence the servers had to limit the number of buildpoints. On 33rd siege it was set to 50, which was ridiculously low for 200 players and would completely ruin the sapper experience. If it was put at a high level as it was on Minisiege, players would just build enormous ramps with stacks of unbuilt sandbags. When the unbuilt sandbags were modified and the planks removed, they would make ramps with the bugged unbuilt gabion combined with the unbuilt sandbags, and this ramp could go very high. It was ruining many maps. Something that wouldn't happen on battles.

Regarding deathmatch like Tropical paradise, trolls would also build big stacks of props that would eventually fly in the air and remain there as no one could break the props. No buildpoints would remain after the troll had made his work.

Now this problem is fixed, and sappers can still build things. They were nerfed and that's a good thing. I don't see any good reason to go back to the old props. And I believe that most players are satisfied with the new system. Of course those who liked to exploit glitches are not pleased.


Here, a compilation of the stupid stuff that could be done with the old props:

« Last Edit: Today at 11:21:03 pm by MaxLam »