Violence in France

[Duuring]

I don't consider that those who disagree with me are necessary "enemies of freedom." Freedom, political freedom, is the common ground of a great variety of political opinions. But some ideas are not acceptable if they are harmful to society.

After WWII, since a lot of people suffered, and I personally know some survivors from the camps, it was an inalienable right for the European populations to live in a society in which nobody would dare to speak lightly of the crimes of Nazi Germany. And of course, especially for the Germans. That's why this limitation of freedom of speech was done accordingly to the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. And therefore I agree with this part of the forum rules which is infringed quite often without any reaction from the moderators:

11. No posting of National Socialist imagery, symbols or right wing opinions or representation that may glorify or seek to represent elements of former Nazi Germany.
In many countries such symbols and imagery are banned particularly in Germany where FSE's host servers are based. At the end of the day this is a forum for the enjoyment of FSE products and not a platform for political discourse. FSE does not wish to contravene Germany's strict policies in regards to Strafgesetzbuch section 86a and thus requests that its users adhere to this policy as part of the terms of service agreement.

Please do not come in here pretending you are some sort of representative of all who suffered in World war 2. It's in very bad taste, makes you look like an idiot and is just rude to people who have or have relatives who actually suffered under those crimes. The fact that 'you know' some people changes nothing.

[Augy]

You have to keep in mind "no platform" refers to the message of hatred, bigotry, and violence that our typical fascist has to share.

We're not saying "I arbitrarily disagree, and thus it is justified to silence this person!" We're saying that giving a fascist space to recruit other fascists to their cause leads to them attacking people or otherwise acting on their stated desires to violently oppress people.

Think of your Spanish Civil War. No one offered to engage the fascists in debate, because fascists aren't interested in space to discuss their beliefs. They are interested in space to develop an air of legitimacy and look strong.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that nazis and fascists are more than theoretically bad? When you sign up to be one, you make the conscious decision to advocate for national socialism, you are advocating for the systemic dehumanization and murder of people, there's no way around that. This isn't like targeting someone who may be violent under the right circumstances. This is combating people for whom violence is a prerequisite for their very existence. The world is more complex than your banal hypotheticals ever are.

if a Nazi or Nazi group harms us or threatens to harm us (which they will always do), then we fight back, violently if necessary. But if all they want to do is walk around talking about their bullshit, then no, we do not physically harm them. I would say the same thing about any group. It's not about their ideology, it's about not legitimizing the use of force against political demonstrations based solely on how much you hate them.

[Archduke Sven]

I don't consider that those who disagree with me are necessary "enemies of freedom." Freedom, political freedom, is the common ground of a great variety of political opinions. But some ideas are not acceptable if they are harmful to society.

After WWII, since a lot of people suffered, and I personally know some survivors from the camps, it was an inalienable right for the European populations to live in a society in which nobody would dare to speak lightly of the crimes of Nazi Germany. And of course, especially for the Germans. That's why this limitation of freedom of speech was done accordingly to the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. And therefore I agree with this part of the forum rules which is infringed quite often without any reaction from the moderators:

11. No posting of National Socialist imagery, symbols or right wing opinions or representation that may glorify or seek to represent elements of former Nazi Germany.
In many countries such symbols and imagery are banned particularly in Germany where FSE's host servers are based. At the end of the day this is a forum for the enjoyment of FSE products and not a platform for political discourse. FSE does not wish to contravene Germany's strict policies in regards to Strafgesetzbuch section 86a and thus requests that its users adhere to this policy as part of the terms of service agreement.

THE GOYIM SHALT NOT INSULT, REMEMBER THE 10 TRILLION OY VEY

Seriously your post is dumb on so many levels. Especially the part where you say that certain ideas are harmful to society. Yeah well if i were to say that the ideas of judaism were harmful society and that they shouldn't exist that would be a great example of freedom as long as everyone agrees with me.

OH WAIT. You share the ideas of fascism yet you're trying to denounce it. 'You can only have freedom if it doesn't harm muh society', great banter. HEY GOYS, I FOUND ANOTHER DUMB HYPOCRITE.

You have to keep in mind "no platform" refers to the message of hatred, bigotry, and violence that our typical fascist has to share.

Yet you keep insulting liberals, violently assault capitalism and spreading general hatred towards anything not obsenely far left. Augy, you have no fucking clue who you are do you?

Double standards are gr8 m8

[Colonel Howe]

At 8 in the morning? No, but I haven't slept for around 24 hours.

Doesn't matter though, my point still stands that the content of speech is entirely irrelevant when considering its legality and to what extent it's covered under the right to free speech. A right is a right. You can hate what someone is saying all you want, but it is no government's place to force a person or people to be quiet on those grounds.

You're always drunk

And also, +1.

I hate the Westboro Baptist Church and their bigotry, but I fully support their right to say it. Just like my right to insult them and tell them why their wrong

[KL4R1N0G4MPR0S]

Of course Augy, the left is always on the defensive here, isn't it.


EDIT: lelelel

At the end of the day this is a forum for the enjoyment of FSE products and not a platform for political discourse.

[MaxLam]

I don't consider that those who disagree with me are necessary "enemies of freedom." Freedom, political freedom, is the common ground of a great variety of political opinions. But some ideas are not acceptable if they are harmful to society.

After WWII, since a lot of people suffered, and I personally know some survivors from the camps, it was an inalienable right for the European populations to live in a society in which nobody would dare to speak lightly of the crimes of Nazi Germany. And of course, especially for the Germans. That's why this limitation of freedom of speech was done accordingly to the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. And therefore I agree with this part of the forum rules which is infringed quite often without any reaction from the moderators:

11. No posting of National Socialist imagery, symbols or right wing opinions or representation that may glorify or seek to represent elements of former Nazi Germany.
In many countries such symbols and imagery are banned particularly in Germany where FSE's host servers are based. At the end of the day this is a forum for the enjoyment of FSE products and not a platform for political discourse. FSE does not wish to contravene Germany's strict policies in regards to Strafgesetzbuch section 86a and thus requests that its users adhere to this policy as part of the terms of service agreement.

Please do not come in here pretending you are some sort of representative of all who suffered in World war 2. It's in very bad taste, makes you look like an idiot and is just rude to people who have or have relatives who actually suffered under those crimes. The fact that 'you know' some people changes nothing.

Since years some of those who managed to escape from the camps have been keeping and transmitting the memory of their comrades who died under Nazi yoke and of their own history. And yet you pretend in the most shameful manner that we shouldn't speak about it and that they should keep it for themselves?

[Nipplestockings]

No, the fuck are you on about? You shouldn't use those holocaust victims as a springboard for your own egotistic argumentation is what he's saying. You knowing those people doesn't prove anything. It doesn't make your point more valid. It doesn't make you more knowledgeable or morally righteous. I'm sure your Holocaust acquaintances have blessed you with only the most enlightening tales of their terrible experiences. Fortunately those days are in the past and talk is meaningless if you choose to ignore it. Do us all a favor and ignore talk that you disapprove of, instead of whining and bawwing until some special interest group takes notice and gets it silenced in the name of progressivism.

[MaxLam]

No, the fuck are you on about? You shouldn't use those holocaust victims as a springboard for your own egotistic argumentation is what he's saying.

The only egotistic thing is to refuse to draw the moral, philosophical, and political consequences of the martyr of 5 million men.

It doesn't make you more knowledgeable or morally righteous.

It does make me more knowledgeable. Any kind of experience makes you more knowledgeable. And it also contributes to make me more righteous, that's why I'm speaking about them. It's about them, not about me.

Do us all a favor and ignore talk that you disapprove of, instead of whining and bawwing until some special interest group takes notice and gets it silenced in the name of progressivism.

Oh and what are you doing there?

Doesn't matter though, my point still stands that the content of speech is entirely irrelevant when considering its legality and to what extent it's covered under the right to free speech. A right is a right. You can hate what someone is saying all you want, but it is no government's place to force a person or people to be quiet on those grounds.

Living in a society implies that you have to follow some rules, abide by the law, and accept some limitations of your liberties. There is nothing sacred in speech, or is that a new religion?

OH WAIT. You share the ideas of fascism yet you're trying to denounce it. 'You can only have freedom if it doesn't harm muh society', great banter. HEY GOYS, I FOUND ANOTHER DUMB HYPOCRITE.

So you are saying that when Saint Just said "No freedom for the enemies of freedom", he was also an enemy of freedom and an hypocrite. No, he wasn't, because he understood perfectly that in order to protect the freedom of the people, you have to establish a political society wich garantees liberty, but only for those who respect the principles and the law.

[Nipplestockings]

Day 133: we're running low on sanity. Situation has reached critical levels. Fear may not be able to hold out much longer. Morale plummeting.

Send help. Send help. Send help.

[KL4R1N0G4MPR0S]

Maxlam, so you would also fight againt anarchists, right?

[MaxLam]

The idea of an anarchist society, i.e. a stateless society, isn't wrong in itself. Thus you can't compare this idea to the idea that killing 5 million jews was right. Some anarchists of course would support terrorist methods to reach their goals. This isn't acceptable and we should fight them.

[Duuring]

The only egotistic thing is to refuse to draw the moral, philosophical, and political consequences of the martyr of 5 million men.

They're not martyrs. They are victims. Just like Slavs, homosexuals, Romas and whatever people the nazi's decided to point their guns at. A martyr is someone who dies for a cause, not someone who is killed for one. And if anyone is ignoring to draw 'moral, philosophical, and political consequences' from them, it is you who says we must reserve the right to free speech to only opinions that are publicly accepted. You're the one that says that results (no fascists) excuse the means (no free speech), we're saying the opposite. If anything, you're using victims as an excuse to make new victims, which is despicable.

The worst enemy of limited speech isn't limited speech for those who advocate limited speech. It's free speech.

[MaxLam]

The death of 5 million Jews is a sufficient "excuse", if we needed one, to forbid antisemitic speeches. Your comparison between those 5 million victims who quite often died in a horrible manner and the "new victims" that we supposedly make when we refuse to the fascists the right to deny, minimize, or make fun of the Shoah, is shameful.

It's also strange that you advocate unlimited free speech even though you are a moderator, and moreover a moderator of a forum which forbids "posting of National Socialist imagery, symbols or right wing opinions or representation that may glorify or seek to represent elements of former Nazi Germany."

Do you disagree with this rule?

[Duuring]

Is the death of all the Slavs an excuse to forbid speech that is anti-Slav or anti-Russian? Is the death of so many Romas an excuse to ban Gypsy-related jokes/anti-Roma speech? Is the death of so many homosexuals a reason to ban anti-homosexual speech? Is the death of so many communists a reason to ban anti-communist speech? Is the death of so many Poles a reason to ban anti-Polish speech? Is the death of so many Germans a reason to ban anti-German speech?

Do I agree with it? Yes. Because this is a forum owned by a Game Company that has its servers in Germany which bans that. It's the owners right to create any rule they see fit, because they own it. This is not society. It's a forum. Free speech means you can't get arrested and punished by the State, it doesn't mean other persons can't refuse you services.

[Wigster600]

"It deteste what you say, but I shall die for your right to say it." - Some frog possibly Voltaire, I can't remember.