Author Topic: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?  (Read 93044 times)

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Offline Duuring

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #330 on: January 19, 2018, 12:59:16 pm »
The counter-offensive against German paratroopers was also quite succesful, re-taking the airfields and destroying a great deal of enemy planes.  The German paratrooper operation was meant to finish the Netherlands off in a single day and ended up having to be rescued by the German army 4 days later. And even then, the surrender was forced by terrorbombing a city, not because the army was defeated. More then half of the paratroop force was captured and the effects of the losses during the Battle of the Netherlands was felt even at Crete a year later.

I'm not saying the 5-day battle was some sort of heroic resistance against all odds (Cos, you know, we were defeated), but taking into account the strategic situation, calling the entirety of it a military blunder on the Dutch side, rather then an unavoidable defeat, is uncalled for.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 01:01:57 pm by Duuring »

Offline Riddlez

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #331 on: January 19, 2018, 02:17:42 pm »
I called it a military strategic blunder, not a military blunder. The fighting was good, especially considering the apalling state of the especially the Army at the time. The overall coordination left a lot to be desired.
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Offline Duuring

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #332 on: January 19, 2018, 02:36:59 pm »
But even 'leaving a lot to be desired' is a far stretch from a 'hilarious militairy blunder'. Name me one combat mission the modern Dutch army is in that doesn't leave a lot to be desired, equipment-wise.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #333 on: January 19, 2018, 10:49:13 pm »
Not a military strategic blunder, rather a political one.
Also, the equipment that is sent on deployment is, on average, in proper working form. Yes that sounds reasonably ironic considering the report that was just published, but usually shit that is supposed to work, works.

What you could call a military strategic blunder is the four battles of Chora, considering there needed to be four battles to begin with. Thankfully, while mostly fought by Dutch and British/Australian SOF, it was a strategic fuck-up on taskforce level, which wasn't in Dutch hands.

So, equipment-wise, the Battle of Chora wasn't something that left a lot to be desired.
I don't even want to begin about Mali, from the stories I have heard, especially on the leadership level in the Logistics section, it is shit. But again, this is not so much a Dutch blunder as it is a UN one. Fuck me the Dutch government even practically forced the UN to accept Dutch Chinooks and especially apaches into the mission. That shit is usually not-done in a peace-keeping operation, especially with the UN.
Still, the Dutch managed to get it on-board. I guess the UN just wanted Dutch Intel capacity too much for the mission.


« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 10:55:19 pm by Riddlez »
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Offline Duuring

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #334 on: January 19, 2018, 11:44:45 pm »
Quote
Not a military strategic blunder, rather a political one.

Military and politics are not seperated realms.

Quote
I guess the UN just wanted Dutch Intel capacity too much for the mission.

I guess the Netherlands just really wanted that seat in the security councel too much.

Offline KurassierNixon

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #335 on: January 20, 2018, 04:39:21 am »
The Netherlands is by far the worst nation at fighting wars.

Between collaborating with the Nazis after being utterly destroyed in battle (Nederlandsche SS, 23rd SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division "Nederland", Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging in Nederland (NSB), etc.) and the humiliating losses of '49 and '62 to the Indonesians its no wonder this nation's current army numbers roughly 25,000 men - any more and they wouldn't know what to do with themselves. Even tiny Kuwait fields a larger and better trained military than the Dutch.


Offline Duuring

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #336 on: January 20, 2018, 10:53:14 am »
Quote
Between collaborating with the Nazis after being utterly destroyed in battle (Nederlandsche SS, 23rd SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division "Nederland", Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging in Nederland (NSB), etc.)

Most occupied nations had collaborators. Not sure why you're picking out my nation as if it stands out in comparison to the others. We also had one of the biggest resistance forces per capita.

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the humiliating losses of '49 and '62 to the Indonesians

Humilating losses? Seriously, what? In 1946-49, the Dutch army defeated the Indonesian Nationalists in both offensive campaigns and captured pretty much everything of importance (including Nationalist political leadership). Political pressure was what stopped the offensives and the war. And there was no war in '62 (Unless you count that single battle in which the Dutch navy killed like 40 Indonesians without taking any losses). I mean, kudos to the Nationalists for excellent political manoeuvring and winning both conflicts, but that has nothing to do with actual fighting.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 10:55:14 am by Duuring »

Offline KurassierNixon

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #337 on: January 20, 2018, 07:32:02 pm »
The Dutch Resistance did absolutely nothing noteworthy compared to other resistance movements at the time. Reinhard Heydrich was assassinated by the Czechs, the Italians lynched Mussolini and even the Danish Resistance protected 90% of their Jews. The most noteworthy thing the Dutch did was a few strikes. There's a reason over 3/4ths of all Dutch Jews perished in the holocaust: the willing and enthusiastic collaboration with the Third Reich. Only on the Eastern Front do we see this same degree of collaboration as we see in the Netherlands.

Offline Duuring

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #338 on: January 20, 2018, 07:53:59 pm »
You're being ridicious, highly offensive and I'm not going to continue debating you.

Offline Windflower

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #339 on: January 20, 2018, 08:09:53 pm »
You're being ridicious, highly offensive and I'm not going to continue debating you.
That's the joke

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Offline Dekkers

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #340 on: January 20, 2018, 10:09:17 pm »
Dutch triggering intensifies
Dekkers has become the community's designated old man with alzheimers who sits in the corner reminiscing about simpler times, happier times... "The spins" he wails "do you remember the SPINS!!!"

Offline Duuring

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #341 on: January 20, 2018, 10:23:14 pm »

Offline KurassierNixon

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #342 on: January 21, 2018, 12:47:23 am »
You're being ridicious, highly offensive and I'm not going to continue debating you.

Stating facts is now "highly offensive"

FACT: 90% of Dutch Jews perished in the holocaust.
FACT: Over 10,000 Dutchmen WILLINGLY volunteered for the SS and served in the Nederlandsche SS, 23rd SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division Nederland, SS Volunteer Grenadier Brigade Landstorm Nederland and 4th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Brigade Nederland.
FACT: Over 100,000 Dutchmen WILLINGLY joined the Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging. These 100,000 openly collaborated with the Germans and turned their countrymen over for death in concentration camps.
FACT: The Henneicke Column WILLINGLY captured Jews and turned them over to the Nazis. They captured and were directly responsible for the deaths of 10,000 Dutch Jews who perished in the Holocaust.
FACT: Between 25,000 and 30,000 Dutchmen WILLINGLY volunteered to serve in the Heer.
FACT: The LKP (Nationale Knokploeg), the largest Dutch resistance group, had only a measly 550 members.

BONUS FACT: The survival rate of Dutch Jews at around 10% is substantially lower than Belgium (60% of Jews survived), France (75% of Jews survived) and Denmark (99% of Jews survived).

Never forget the enthusiastic and eager Dutch collaboration with the Nazis which directly resulted in the death of 125,000+ Dutch Jews.

Offline Dekkers

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #343 on: January 21, 2018, 12:51:08 am »
You're being ridicious, highly offensive and I'm not going to continue debating you.

Stating facts is now "highly offensive"

FACT: 90% of Dutch Jews perished in the holocaust.
FACT: Over 10,000 Dutchmen WILLINGLY volunteered for the SS and served in the Nederlandsche SS, 23rd SS Volunteer Panzer Grenadier Division Nederland, SS Volunteer Grenadier Brigade Landstorm Nederland and 4th SS Volunteer Panzergrenadier Brigade Nederland.
FACT: Over 100,000 Dutchmen WILLINGLY joined the Nationaal-Socialistische Beweging. These 100,000 openly collaborated with the Germans and turned their countrymen over for death in concentration camps.
FACT: The Henneicke Column WILLINGLY captured Jews and turned them over to the Nazis. They captured and were directly responsible for the deaths of 10,000 Dutch Jews who perished in the Holocaust.
FACT: Between 25,000 and 30,000 Dutchmen WILLINGLY volunteered to serve in the Heer.
FACT: The LKP (Nationale Knokploeg), the largest Dutch resistance group, had only a measly 550 members.

BONUS FACT: The survival rate of Dutch Jews at around 10% is substantially lower than Belgium (60% of Jews survived), France (75% of Jews survived) and Denmark (99% of Jews survived).

Never forget the enthusiastic and eager Dutch collaboration with the Nazis which directly resulted in the death of 125,000+ Dutch Jews.

What's your point anyway? The topic is about fighting wars and you come here mentioning facts about Dutch people supporting the ''evil'' German Reich? Seems like two seperate things to me

Dekkers has become the community's designated old man with alzheimers who sits in the corner reminiscing about simpler times, happier times... "The spins" he wails "do you remember the SPINS!!!"

Offline KurassierNixon

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Re: Which nations are the worst at fighting wars?
« Reply #344 on: January 21, 2018, 12:53:39 am »
I would say not only surrendering after 4 days but then turning around and systematically murdering hundreds of thousands of your own countrymen on the orders of your conquerors makes you pretty bad at fighting wars.