Author Topic: Football thread v.2  (Read 274727 times)

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Offline Skipper

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1950 on: December 15, 2017, 08:08:40 am »
I genuinely can't call the PSG - Real fixture. There are strong arguments for both sides.

Arguments for PSG winning:
-Current form of PSG is good.
-Current form of Real is terrible.
-PSG have already beaten Bayern this season.
-Emery is a much better manager, with far more experience, than Zidane.

Arguments for Real winning:
-This bad form likely won't last until the round of 16 is played.
-La Liga is one of the hardest leagues in the world, whilst Ligue 1 is one of the easiest and least competitive.
-Bayern were also extremely out of form against PSG.
-Real have a much stronger, deeper squad.
-One of the fixtures will be at the Bernabeau. The Bernabeau and Nou Camp are, statistically, the two hardest stadiums in the world to play in.


Should be a good game.
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Offline Keita

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1951 on: December 15, 2017, 08:11:12 am »
lol Emery won't be at psg for long, and i also believe Real will win that fixture.
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Offline 4eClausewitz

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1952 on: December 15, 2017, 04:17:03 pm »
The whole 'Ligue 1 is a Mickey Mouse league'-narrative is utter shite and is usually only uttered by people who don't actually follow the league. Ligue 1 is also not the easiest / least competitive league in the world, by a long shot. People downplaying PSG's quality because of these reasons are just deluding themselves: they are still a top European side with absolute fuck you money, so they are definitely able to challenge Real on all fronts. Not to mention the fact that Emery is a known for being a successful manager in cup competitions; if he could pull it off with lower quality sides in lower quality competitions, surely he should in theory also be able to pull it off with PSG in the CL. I personally don't think they'll win however, considering Real's title race is as good as over and the only thing to save their season at the moment is the CL.

Offline Toffee

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1953 on: December 15, 2017, 05:23:03 pm »
Premier league is a mickey mouse league

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1954 on: December 15, 2017, 05:39:30 pm »
brazilian league is a mickey mouse league




Offline Nero_

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1955 on: December 15, 2017, 05:51:03 pm »
?

Offline Dekkers

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1956 on: December 15, 2017, 08:11:52 pm »
Premier league is a mickey mouse league

Lmao 

Just stop
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Offline Skipper

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1957 on: December 15, 2017, 09:03:06 pm »
The whole 'Ligue 1 is a Mickey Mouse league'-narrative is utter shite and is usually only uttered by people who don't actually follow the league. Ligue 1 is also not the easiest / least competitive league in the world, by a long shot.

It's not that Ligue 1 is weak standalone, it's that Ligue 1 is weak when making a direct side-by-side comparison to La Liga.

La Liga, arguably, is the strongest league in the world right now and has been since 2009. It usually has the highest number of UCL teams from one league and the simple strength of the top-table teams makes the league closer at the end of the season than any other major league in Europe, almost always going down to the final day.

The simple fact is, there are more teams capable of beating giants in La Liga than there are in Ligue 1. It's objective. This means that, every season, Real and Barca are forced to compete to the highest degree in football and prove themselves on a nearly weekly basis. The ability to do this makes them the best teams in the world. In Ligue 1, however, the monopoly that PSG have over the league is evident and it means that they only really prove themselves in the UCL.

Let's not forget, this PSG side can't defend for shit.

Against a tougher opposition who isn't seriously out of form (like Bayern was), which is the scenario we expect Real to transform into by the round of 16, they'd have a tough time defending and their ability to take the game by the scruff of the neck like they are capable of doing against smaller Ligue 1 sides with far less resources and world-class players will most likely not appear.

Real, meanwhile, despite being out of form, have at least proven they can play big matches this season. They beat Barcelona in the Spanish Super Cup - a Barcelona team that is yet to lose a game and is doing incredible this season. They got a comfortable draw with Atleti, who also haven't lost a game this season. They absolutely demolished Sevilla, a UCL knockout round team. Probably most impressively, they held off a draw with Valencia. Valencia this season are, i'd argue, in the top 3 performing teams in the world right now. They are second in the league and the quality of football they are playing is phenomenal. Valencia have only lost one game this season and even Barcelona were unable to beat them at the Mestalla (though, tbh, that was due to referee error).

The objective fact is, Real have held off or beaten big teams on a consistent basis over the season. This is a Real seriously out of form who we are all criticising, but at least they have shown us that they are still capable of getting one over the teams who actually pose a threat in the league. PSG, meanwhile, haven't. There isn't a team in Ligue 1 that comes near to the quality of the 4 teams I mentioned from La Liga. Compared to the strength of Spain, the French league is a 'mickey mouse' league and so we can't overly praise PSG when comparing them to Real because PSG have yet to prove they can hold off teams of Barcelona's/Valencia's calibre.
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Offline Toffee

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1958 on: December 15, 2017, 09:41:32 pm »
La Liga best league in the world my arse

Offline 4eClausewitz

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1959 on: December 15, 2017, 10:04:07 pm »

It's not that Ligue 1 is weak standalone, it's that Ligue 1 is weak when making a direct side-by-side comparison to La Liga.



I never disagreed with this - I disagree with the fact that you called it one of the world's easiest and least competitive leagues; which is something entirely different (and completely wrong to boot) to what you are saying now.

Quote
The simple fact is, there are more teams capable of beating giants in La Liga than there are in Ligue 1. It's objective. This means that, every season, Real and Barca are forced to compete to the highest degree in football and prove themselves on a nearly weekly basis. The ability to do this makes them the best teams in the world. In Ligue 1, however, the monopoly that PSG have over the league is evident and it means that they only really prove themselves in the UCL.

I think you're heavily overstating the quality of certain La Liga clubs when you say both Real Madrid and Barca are playing the best teams in the world on a nearly weekly basis. More often than not La Liga matches including either one of those teams are a one horse race, not entirely different to what PSG experiences in Ligue 1.

Quote
Let's not forget, this PSG side can't defend for shit.

Against a tougher opposition who isn't seriously out of form (like Bayern was), which is the scenario we expect Real to transform into by the round of 16, they'd have a tough time defending and their ability to take the game by the scruff of the neck like they are capable of doing against smaller Ligue 1 sides with far less resources and world-class players will most likely not appear.

They also beat this same Bayern Munich side with 3-0, this is just recency bias. There was also no way Bayern could overtake them for first place in the group, so I doubt this match is all that indicative of their ability to challenge a side like Real's. They have a total of 13 goals against them (with only Montpellier having less with 10) in the French league and only 4 in the Champions league, so saying that they can't defend for shit is objectively wrong. Does PSG have a relatively easy time (most of the time) in Ligue 1? Sure - but that doesn't take away the quality that that squad possesses.

Quote
The objective fact is, Real have held off or beaten big teams on a consistent basis over the season. This is a Real seriously out of form who we are all criticising, but at least they have shown us that they are still capable of getting one over the teams who actually pose a threat in the league. PSG, meanwhile, haven't. There isn't a team in Ligue 1 that comes near to the quality of the 4 teams I mentioned from La Liga. Compared to the strength of Spain, the French league is a 'mickey mouse' league and so we can't overly praise PSG when comparing them to Real because PSG have yet to prove they can hold off teams of Barcelona's/Valencia's calibre.

I'm not sure what you mean by PSG not being able to get one over on teams that pose a threat in the league: they have beaten both of their direct title contenders and drew with the current fourth place with a man down. La Liga's top 4 sides are arguably better than Ligue 1's, but with this same logic you can argue that any league not living up to the European success of Spanish sides is a Mickey Mouse league. Also bringing Valencia into the fold of one of the greats is crazy, considering their performances / financial issues / managerial choices (case in point: Gary Neville) have been nothing short of woeful these past few seasons. They are on a hot streak and are performing above their level at the moment, but they are in no way an absolute top Spanish side currently - they'll have to be more consistent to be able to claim that title.

Offline Skipper

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1960 on: December 16, 2017, 04:21:25 am »
La Liga best league in the world my arse

"Best" is subjective. Most competitive (in regards to points between first and second, first and fourth and first and last at the end of the season) and with the highest quality teams and players? This statement can be supported by certain facts.

http://iffhs.de/strongest-national-league-world-2016-spain-since-2010/
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 05:29:13 am by Skipper »
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Offline Skipper

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1961 on: December 16, 2017, 05:14:45 am »
Quote
I never disagreed with this - I disagree with the fact that you called it one of the world's easiest and least competitive leagues; which is something entirely different (and completely wrong to boot) to what you are saying now.

I stated that La Liga was one of the strongest leagues whilst Ligue 1 (in the same line, therefore implying direct comparison) came across as much weaker. I haven't changed what i've stated. Ligue 1 is obviously going to be stronger than, say, the Bulgarian third division (if they even have one), but on a scaled comparison to La Liga it is made to look like one of the weakest and least competitive leagues in the world.

Quote
I think you're heavily overstating the quality of certain La Liga clubs when you say both Real Madrid and Barca are playing the best teams in the world on a nearly weekly basis. More often than not La Liga matches including either one of those teams are a one horse race, not entirely different to what PSG experiences in Ligue 1.

La Liga, fact, has the strongest teams in the world. In 2015/16 the league broke a world record for having the most amount of teams in the UCL (5 - Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla) despite only having 4 spots (Sevilla won the Europa League). Spanish teams win European competitions constantly (Spanish teams have won all four of the past UCL titles as well as three of the past four Europa League titles; Real Madrid, a Spanish club, have won the most European cup (later renamed to UCL) trophies (12) with Sevilla, another Spanish club, winning the most Europa League trophies (5)) Since 2010, La Liga has been named the strongest and most competitive league in the world every year by the IFFHS (official rankings).

Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla are amongst the strongest teams in the world - with Villarreal, Athletic Bilbao, Celta de Vigo, Real Sociedad, Espanyol, Deportivo la Coruna, Malaga and and Real Betis consistently competing and not far behind in terms of quality.

If you think La Liga is a one-horse race I suggest actually looking at the teams and results. Occasionally, you shall get one sided matches. More often than not, this isn't the case. Real are unable to even get into third place due to the sheer quality of the league, drawing 4 times this season and losing twice (to Girona and Levante).

Rather than me overstating the ability of these teams, I feel you are understating their ability.

Quote
They also beat this same Bayern Munich side with 3-0, this is just recency bias. There was also no way Bayern could overtake them for first place in the group, so I doubt this match is all that indicative of their ability to challenge a side like Real's. They have a total of 13 goals against them (with only Montpellier having less with 10) in the French league and only 4 in the Champions league, so saying that they can't defend for shit is objectively wrong. Does PSG have a relatively easy time (most of the time) in Ligue 1? Sure - but that doesn't take away the quality that that squad possesses.

You'd have a difficult time trying to justify the opinion that Bayern were on normal form. Not only did they have several key players missing but they were underperforming in the Bundesliga at the time.

Seeing as you appear to have missed the consistently circulating stories about PSG's infamously poor defence this season, allow me to link you a few articles:

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/club/paris-saint-germain/160/blog/post/3312630/neymars-return-is-good-news-for-psg-but-leaky-defence-is-real-problem

"Key to that will be sorting out a leaky defence and one that was already shipping goals before captain Thiago Silva suffered an injury against Bayern.

Eight of the 11 goals conceded since November have come away from home, and this untimely run has coincided with Marquinhos suffering a big drop in form and attacking full-backs Dani Alves and Layvin Kurzawa being more exposed than usual.

Marquinhos needs to pull himself together unless Thiago Motta is handed a start, which is unlikely after his lengthy absence with a knee issue, he will be captain, and the armband is looking a little too big for the mature 23-year-old right now."


http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/paris-saint-germain-unai-emery-bordeaux/1xbgcxuakx7az17zhuk0bsem8h

"Unai Emery was left frustrated by some sloppy Paris Saint-Germain defending, despite his side recording an emphatic 6-2 victory over Bordeaux in Ligue 1."

13 goals is, quite simply, an atrocious amount to concede at the half way point in the season. When you consider the monopoly that PSG have in terms of wealth and player ability in Ligue 1, to concede that amount shows a real problem in defence. Barcelona, who have played against more high tier opponents this season (including Juventus, Sevilla, Valencia and Atleti to name a few) have conceded half that amount (7). Barcelona's opponents have had resources and players of a particularly similar calibre, unlike the opponents of PSG, and have managed to concede half as many goals despite being criticised constantly in the media for having a poor defence (with Umtiti injured, Masherano never playing, Pique recently suspended and relying on the likes of Vermaelen). Not even Real, who are in fourth and on terrible form right now, have conceded that many goals.

Quote
I'm not sure what you mean by PSG not being able to get one over on teams that pose a threat in the league: they have beaten both of their direct title contenders and drew with the current fourth place with a man down. La Liga's top 4 sides are arguably better than Ligue 1's, but with this same logic you can argue that any league not living up to the European success of Spanish sides is a Mickey Mouse league. Also bringing Valencia into the fold of one of the greats is crazy, considering their performances / financial issues / managerial choices (case in point: Gary Neville) have been nothing short of woeful these past few seasons. They are on a hot streak and are performing above their level at the moment, but they are in no way an absolute top Spanish side currently - they'll have to be more consistent to be able to claim that title.

I don't mean PSG are incapable of "getting one over on teams that pose a threat in the league" - I mean there are no teams in Ligue 1 that pose any sort of threat. The gap in both quality and resources between PSG and everyone else in the league is too much. Real, meanwhile, do not have this monopoly. True, Real have the most money in La Liga. They don't however, have objectively the strongest squad and their resources are not on another level to their title contenders (Barcelona, Atletico, Sevilla and Valencia - all of whom have world class players and large budgets).

In regards to Valencia, you are completely understating them (again). Firstly, managerial and financial choices are not a factor here. We are purely discussing form and ability to perform on the pitch. Secondly, the Valencia of the past 2 seasons (it was literally only 2 seasons that they had a tough time) were underperforming by their usual standards. Valencia has always been a strong title contender - consistently playing in Europe and often winning La Liga - and had a poor dip in form. Now, they are back to their usual selves. Saying that they are not a challenging team to Real because they had 2 seasons of poor form, would be like saying Manchester United are not a challenging team in the Premier League because they had 4 seasons of poor form.

Valencia this season are incredible. They are back to their normal best and absolutely tearing La Liga to shreds.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11828/11095025/how-valencia-got-back-on-track

They are 2 games away from the half way point in the league. They have played almost everyone, including all top table teams, and have only lost once. They have the best shot conversion rate in the league.

Saying that Valencia aren't a strong team this season because their form has only been consistent for 4 months solid, is like me saying that Manchester City are not currently a strong team and are not difficult to beat, because their form has only been like this for half a season.

Real Madrid managing to get a draw with this incredible side in the form that they are in, is impressive. PSG, quite bluntly, haven't come across a team in this form yet.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 05:21:02 am by Skipper »
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Offline 4eClausewitz

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1962 on: December 16, 2017, 01:19:13 pm »
Is this a copy pasta? I didn't know Malaga was nearly equal in quality to the top sides of La Liga. It's safe to say you don't actually watch Ligue 1 and are basing your opinions off of a random assortment of sensationalized articles from the likes of Goal.com and ESPN.

Offline Skipper

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1963 on: December 16, 2017, 01:31:13 pm »
The top teams almost always find it difficult to beat Malaga. Don't mistake what i'm saying - obviously Malaga are not as good as the top teams, but look at the past few matches played between Malaga and top sides.

Malaga recently beat Barcelona 2-0. In 2015 (the last time Barcelona won the treble) they lost both games to Malaga. Malaga have drawn the last three games to Real Madrid. Kameni, who Malaga only recently let go of, was one of the best goalkeepers in the world and certainly one of the strongest in La Liga at the time.

Don't be a hypocrite. You evidently don't watch La Liga.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 01:35:03 pm by Skipper »
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Offline Dekkers

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Re: Football thread v.2
« Reply #1964 on: December 16, 2017, 01:36:22 pm »
Quote
I never disagreed with this - I disagree with the fact that you called it one of the world's easiest and least competitive leagues; which is something entirely different (and completely wrong to boot) to what you are saying now.

I stated that La Liga was one of the strongest leagues whilst Ligue 1 (in the same line, therefore implying direct comparison) came across as much weaker. I haven't changed what i've stated. Ligue 1 is obviously going to be stronger than, say, the Bulgarian third division (if they even have one), but on a scaled comparison to La Liga it is made to look like one of the weakest and least competitive leagues in the world.

Quote
I think you're heavily overstating the quality of certain La Liga clubs when you say both Real Madrid and Barca are playing the best teams in the world on a nearly weekly basis. More often than not La Liga matches including either one of those teams are a one horse race, not entirely different to what PSG experiences in Ligue 1.

La Liga, fact, has the strongest teams in the world. In 2015/16 the league broke a world record for having the most amount of teams in the UCL (5 - Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla) despite only having 4 spots (Sevilla won the Europa League). Spanish teams win European competitions constantly (Spanish teams have won all four of the past UCL titles as well as three of the past four Europa League titles; Real Madrid, a Spanish club, have won the most European cup (later renamed to UCL) trophies (12) with Sevilla, another Spanish club, winning the most Europa League trophies (5)) Since 2010, La Liga has been named the strongest and most competitive league in the world every year by the IFFHS (official rankings).

Real Madrid, Barcelona, Atletico Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla are amongst the strongest teams in the world - with Villarreal, Athletic Bilbao, Celta de Vigo, Real Sociedad, Espanyol, Deportivo la Coruna, Malaga and and Real Betis consistently competing and not far behind in terms of quality.

If you think La Liga is a one-horse race I suggest actually looking at the teams and results. Occasionally, you shall get one sided matches. More often than not, this isn't the case. Real are unable to even get into third place due to the sheer quality of the league, drawing 4 times this season and losing twice (to Girona and Levante).

Rather than me overstating the ability of these teams, I feel you are understating their ability.

Quote
They also beat this same Bayern Munich side with 3-0, this is just recency bias. There was also no way Bayern could overtake them for first place in the group, so I doubt this match is all that indicative of their ability to challenge a side like Real's. They have a total of 13 goals against them (with only Montpellier having less with 10) in the French league and only 4 in the Champions league, so saying that they can't defend for shit is objectively wrong. Does PSG have a relatively easy time (most of the time) in Ligue 1? Sure - but that doesn't take away the quality that that squad possesses.

You'd have a difficult time trying to justify the opinion that Bayern were on normal form. Not only did they have several key players missing but they were underperforming in the Bundesliga at the time.

Seeing as you appear to have missed the consistently circulating stories about PSG's infamously poor defence this season, allow me to link you a few articles:

http://www.espn.co.uk/football/club/paris-saint-germain/160/blog/post/3312630/neymars-return-is-good-news-for-psg-but-leaky-defence-is-real-problem

"Key to that will be sorting out a leaky defence and one that was already shipping goals before captain Thiago Silva suffered an injury against Bayern.

Eight of the 11 goals conceded since November have come away from home, and this untimely run has coincided with Marquinhos suffering a big drop in form and attacking full-backs Dani Alves and Layvin Kurzawa being more exposed than usual.

Marquinhos needs to pull himself together unless Thiago Motta is handed a start, which is unlikely after his lengthy absence with a knee issue, he will be captain, and the armband is looking a little too big for the mature 23-year-old right now."


http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/paris-saint-germain-unai-emery-bordeaux/1xbgcxuakx7az17zhuk0bsem8h

"Unai Emery was left frustrated by some sloppy Paris Saint-Germain defending, despite his side recording an emphatic 6-2 victory over Bordeaux in Ligue 1."

13 goals is, quite simply, an atrocious amount to concede at the half way point in the season. When you consider the monopoly that PSG have in terms of wealth and player ability in Ligue 1, to concede that amount shows a real problem in defence. Barcelona, who have played against more high tier opponents this season (including Juventus, Sevilla, Valencia and Atleti to name a few) have conceded half that amount (7). Barcelona's opponents have had resources and players of a particularly similar calibre, unlike the opponents of PSG, and have managed to concede half as many goals despite being criticised constantly in the media for having a poor defence (with Umtiti injured, Masherano never playing, Pique recently suspended and relying on the likes of Vermaelen). Not even Real, who are in fourth and on terrible form right now, have conceded that many goals.

Quote
I'm not sure what you mean by PSG not being able to get one over on teams that pose a threat in the league: they have beaten both of their direct title contenders and drew with the current fourth place with a man down. La Liga's top 4 sides are arguably better than Ligue 1's, but with this same logic you can argue that any league not living up to the European success of Spanish sides is a Mickey Mouse league. Also bringing Valencia into the fold of one of the greats is crazy, considering their performances / financial issues / managerial choices (case in point: Gary Neville) have been nothing short of woeful these past few seasons. They are on a hot streak and are performing above their level at the moment, but they are in no way an absolute top Spanish side currently - they'll have to be more consistent to be able to claim that title.

I don't mean PSG are incapable of "getting one over on teams that pose a threat in the league" - I mean there are no teams in Ligue 1 that pose any sort of threat. The gap in both quality and resources between PSG and everyone else in the league is too much. Real, meanwhile, do not have this monopoly. True, Real have the most money in La Liga. They don't however, have objectively the strongest squad and their resources are not on another level to their title contenders (Barcelona, Atletico, Sevilla and Valencia - all of whom have world class players and large budgets).

In regards to Valencia, you are completely understating them (again). Firstly, managerial and financial choices are not a factor here. We are purely discussing form and ability to perform on the pitch. Secondly, the Valencia of the past 2 seasons (it was literally only 2 seasons that they had a tough time) were underperforming by their usual standards. Valencia has always been a strong title contender - consistently playing in Europe and often winning La Liga - and had a poor dip in form. Now, they are back to their usual selves. Saying that they are not a challenging team to Real because they had 2 seasons of poor form, would be like saying Manchester United are not a challenging team in the Premier League because they had 4 seasons of poor form.

Valencia this season are incredible. They are back to their normal best and absolutely tearing La Liga to shreds.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11828/11095025/how-valencia-got-back-on-track

They are 2 games away from the half way point in the league. They have played almost everyone, including all top table teams, and have only lost once. They have the best shot conversion rate in the league.

Saying that Valencia aren't a strong team this season because their form has only been consistent for 4 months solid, is like me saying that Manchester City are not currently a strong team and are not difficult to beat, because their form has only been like this for half a season.

Real Madrid managing to get a draw with this incredible side in the form that they are in, is impressive. PSG, quite bluntly, haven't come across a team in this form yet.

Only on this forum will a football discussion turn into people creating essays
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