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Mount & Blade Warband: Napoleonic Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Savolainen5 on January 09, 2013, 06:06:48 pm

Title: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Savolainen5 on January 09, 2013, 06:06:48 pm
I'm compiling a guide on groupfighting for people in the Reddit Brigade, and I'd love your input. Here's what I have so far.

In the beginning (of the fight, as well as when you're a groupfighting noob), block. Nothing sucks more than dying to the first stab you come into because you misjudged the situation. When you get better, you'll be able to better judge when to release an attack and kill someone who's going to try to stab you. But it never hurts to block if you're only being pressured by one person.

Move around a lot. Because enemies are all around you, you need to make yourself a harder-to-hit target. The best way to do this is to not stay still for any moment. I can't tell you the number of times that I've died in a groupfight simply because I got stopped (whether on an obstacle or by a glance off an enemy or a blocked attack). And know that, once you get good at it, you'll do a lot more moving than blocking (which doesn't mean you should never block of course).

Be conscious of your surroundings. Because enemies are all around you, you need to know where you can go, who you can attack, or what direction you need to block. For this reason, if I'm not immediately pressed by enemies, I'll take a very brief moment to do a 360 and take stock of the situation. If you can avoid being caught by surprise, you have a MUCH better chance of surviving. It'll also help you to catch enemies by surprise (see below)

Attack unsuspecting enemies whenever possible. When you're outnumbered, with enemies closely surrounding you, you can thin out the herd by suddenly turning and stabbing an enemy following you. A good portion of the player-base will fall for this trick, as they'll be following you assuming that you're focusing on someone else. When you catch one person off-guard, you often will have the opportunity to chain more attacks, because the enemy will think you're vulnerable. In that situation, keep moving and stabbing. (I got 5 melee kills in the space of about 7 seconds at an LB yesterday just from chaining together kills beginning when I caught someone off-guard. "It really really works!")

That said, don't be that unsuspecting enemy. If you're in close proximity to an outnumbered enemy, be ready to block whenever at any point. You don't necessarily need to hold a block, but pay attention to what the enemy's doing. You'll have a window when they turn with an attack at which you'll have PLENTY of time to get a block up. But you have to pay attention.

Use your allies as distractions for a target. A great way to get kills in groupfighting is to wait for an enemy to get engaged with an ally, and just swoop in and stab him when he moves into range of you. Of course, this doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared to block (as good groupfighters will take the opportunity to get a stab on you if you're just waiting for them to come into range and don't have your wits about you). But it often happens that an ally and an enemy will be fighting in a counter-clockwise motion, and you can just wait for them to come into range while they're busy blocking. Of course, you can also be the distraction while your ally gets the kill. In a line battle, all that matters is that your line comes out on top. The overarching idea is to gang up on enemies as much as possible, because if you can swarm an enemy (and not TK), he will be hard-pressed to survive.

Don't focus too heavily on going after a single target when there are plenty to choose from. If you get tunnel vision and go after just one guy, you're BEGGING to get stabbed, because you start to lose your sense of awareness. If you keep shifting targets, that means you keep moving, and that makes you hard to hit.

Be unpredictable. This is my most general and most important piece of advice. A player moving unpredictably and going after (seemingly) random targets is much more likely to survive than someone who always does the same thing. Don't do the same attack every time, the same spin, the same movement.

To steal Hekko's summarising format, let's sum this up:

Do block (at least at the beginning)

Do move around a lot

Do pay attention to what's going on around you

Do attempt to catch enemies by surprise

Do not get caught by surprise

Do use your allies to help you out

Do not target a single person when there are many

Do be unpredictable
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: TheZach_Attack on January 09, 2013, 06:54:08 pm
Wow great guide!
Some advice that I have (that you might of already said since I'm in class while listening to sum of dat rap) I will type it later.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Gyrocile on January 09, 2013, 09:42:26 pm
I killed someone like, loads, of people in a group fighting server.

Spoiler
You're guide is therefore a success.
[close]
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Jacob on January 09, 2013, 11:10:25 pm
You forgot NEVER KICK :P It stops you still and that is something you don't want happening in groupfighting :P
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Chosen1 on January 09, 2013, 11:19:04 pm
1.Fake-afk
2.???
3.Profit
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Hekko on January 09, 2013, 11:42:57 pm
I'd add three sections to this. One about opposite attack directions, one about positional attack priority and one about footwork when outnumbered&outnumbering.

You're on to a good start here!
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Savolainen5 on January 10, 2013, 12:56:33 am
That's a good idea, actually. I'll give it more consideration and think about writing some more in that respect.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Hekko on January 10, 2013, 01:46:35 am
That's a good idea, actually. I'll give it more consideration and think about writing some more in that respect.

If you need any help/ideas feel free to ask me about the subjects I mentioned :)
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Savolainen5 on January 10, 2013, 01:48:49 am
That's a good idea, actually. I'll give it more consideration and think about writing some more in that respect.

If you need any help/ideas feel free to ask me about the subjects I mentioned :)

Maybe I'll quote you extensively and add my own thoughts. :D
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Slick on January 10, 2013, 04:09:17 am
You forgot NEVER KICK :P It stops you still and that is something you don't want happening in groupfighting :P

Getting kicked and then stabbed in the face is so embarrassing :(
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Captain_Canada on January 10, 2013, 06:59:35 am
This is a horrible guide, Take it down immediately savs. (Dont let the general public get better...)  :-[

What do you want a challenging community?
I mean ffs savs
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Akame on January 10, 2013, 09:13:27 am
You forgot NEVER KICK :P It stops you still and that is something you don't want happening in groupfighting :P
Have to disagree on that, it can be game changing when timed correctly, not stabbing the guy you kicked, but the guy that retaliates right after your kick.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Savolainen5 on January 10, 2013, 01:00:35 pm
This is a horrible guide, Take it down immediately savs. (Dont let the general public get better...)  :-[

What do you want a challenging community?
I mean ffs savs

Shhh, Canada, go back to cRPG.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: JackieChan on January 10, 2013, 01:22:56 pm
You forgot NEVER KICK :P It stops you still and that is something you don't want happening in groupfighting :P
If you are a good kicker you can use it in GF. ;)
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Neon on January 13, 2013, 04:03:53 pm
True.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Ledger on January 15, 2013, 04:56:01 am
You forgot to mention one key word in the unsuspecting enemies part and that is "BACKSTABBING". I know it sounds dishonorable and people do complain when they get backstabbed, but the truth is that backstabbing might even out or even turn around the odds in a groupfighting battle.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Savolainen5 on January 15, 2013, 12:28:13 pm
You forgot to mention one key word in the unsuspecting enemies part and that is "BACKSTABBING". I know it sounds dishonorable and people do complain when they get backstabbed, but the truth is that backstabbing might even out or even turn around the odds in a groupfighting battle.

That sort of falls more into the allies section. If you're alone against a group, there are unlikely to be many enemies with their backs to you. But when you have allies to help you out, backstabbing can happen a lot as enemies are moving around, focusing one something else.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: AP0CALYPS3 on January 16, 2013, 07:16:34 am
This is a cool guide, pretty much sums up GFighting. I personally always engage the closest opponent and keep the others at a range, and it seems to work since I can always seem to pick off a few before they start coming in pairs. I have also noticed that people try to move to your sides, and when this happens, you can reverse your movement and go forward, often resulting in a lil teamkilling and getting you more space (space is crucial in groupfighting).
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: AP0CALYPS3 on January 16, 2013, 07:23:59 am
Also in regards to the kicking, defends who you are fighting and how many. If its just two guys, sure, go ahead, kick one of them, take him out, however better players may take the opportunity to kill you while you are kicking (who you are fighting), and if you are fighting alot of people, like, the remains of the regiment you were fighting (3+) then theres probably too many bayonets hanging around for you to get away with a quick kick, and remember, space is one of the most crucial components of groupfighting, you should not give it up unless you have to.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Vikestad on January 16, 2013, 08:33:21 am
The use your allies point is pretty much shit though. So often, people will leave the guys they are fighting and try to get behind their line and be score whores. Quite often, the result of this is several allies dying, since the line is basically gone. And the best team on paper loses because of some greedy prick. I would not consider any player doing this a great player to be honest. Naturally, there are differences between random GF sessions, serious events, and linebattles. Still, as a rule of thumb, a good player shouldn't put his allies in hopeless situations when it can be avoided by playing smarter.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Vorlen on January 16, 2013, 09:33:40 am
The use your allies point is pretty much shit though. So often, people will leave the guys they are fighting and try to get behind their line and be score whores. Quite often, the result of this is several allies dying, since the line is basically gone. And the best team on paper loses because of some greedy prick. I would not consider any player doing this a great player to be honest. Naturally, there are differences between random GF sessions, serious events, and linebattles. Still, as a rule of thumb, a good player shouldn't put his allies in hopeless situations when it can be avoided by playing smarter.

Thats true, there are some good points here for getting kills. But it's not a teamplay based guide. So many people try to get kills lately at the expense of playing with their team. Taking it slow and steady, not getting yourself killed by greed, and trying to support and help your team mates get kills is far more important than running around just trying to score up. You need to be watching out for people who are trying to backstab team mates, blocking for them, forcing an oponent to change his block so a friend can get an easy hit.

Only when you start to play the game for the team aspect are you a good groupfighter imo. I dont care if you get 26 kills 1 death. Means nothing. If you get yourself killed by rushing and being greedy you ruin the game for the team, 2 or 3 great players cant stop 8 terrible ones when the numbers catch up with them.

A good and useable guide which will provide results. But not one which summarises a good groupfigher imo. Maybe i am being too harsh... meh
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Savolainen5 on January 16, 2013, 02:47:35 pm
My idea with writing that section is assuming that you and/or your allies are holding your own fighting against someone else. It often happens that a groupfight devolves into duels, and once those duels start to finish up, one team gains an advantage during which they swarm the others. My experience with my brigade is that many players in it are of a lower skill level than those with which we get into a melee, so they tend to get overwhelmed quickly. For that reason, more experienced players will try to get in there and get rid of the dangerous ones before they can start chaining together kills.

That said, I think you both, Vikestad and Vorlen, are right that the allies section isn't great since it does sort of promote a greedy style of play, which was not my intention. Thanks for pointing it out.

I meant more something like this. In a groupfight, your allies are your assets because two people can typically put more pressure on an enemy than one alone, and the more (who are experienced enough to not TK) the better. So, if you can finish up a duel or avoid one initially in order to work together to take someone out, you'll be able to thin out numbers for your team. There's more, but I'll update the guide. It's a WIP, anyways.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: PrideofNi on January 16, 2013, 04:48:15 pm
You forgot NEVER KICK :P It stops you still and that is something you don't want happening in groupfighting :P
If you are a good kicker you can use it in GF. ;)

Indeed xoxo
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: AP0CALYPS3 on January 17, 2013, 01:25:42 am
Iunno about you guys and your talk of all this "greed" nonsense, but I must be the opposite, but just as evil, because I usually sit around and wait for duels.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: SonOfApollo on January 19, 2013, 08:47:20 pm
Nice guide mate. :)
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Maverick on January 23, 2013, 01:57:23 am
Great Post. From experience, I think the most important thing if you're not good at melee is just to stay in a group, as you're pretty much dead meat if you start running around on your own. And also to try and block and just make it difficult for your opponents instead of trying to hold your stab.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Mike Sanford on June 04, 2013, 05:18:53 pm
Bump ^.^
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Lubukill on June 05, 2013, 03:10:14 am
I'd like to say that fake errors can be pretty fun, like showing a side block to force your ennemy to attack you, and then chamber him, or to help an ally getting an easy kill. Crouching is also pretty fun and, against good players, pretty effective. There is always a fool trying to stab / kick stab a crouched one, then you just need to do a side step when the ennemy kicks, and give him what he tried to give you :D

However, I agree with Vikestad and Vorlen, but not entirely. A good groupfighter isn't a man who leaves his teammates behind and get kills, however there are points to understand, if the ally does shit, like rushing in an ennemy group, or not retreating against too much ennemies, or, just if he get in a situation he can't win, it's sometime necessary to leave an ally to save others. Also take care about the fact that a dead ennemy is an ennemy who can't kill your allies or, even, who can't kill you, by back or not :) There must be both types of players in a team, the one holding the ennemies, playing defensive and doing their job, and the ones playing offensive, attacking by behind, being ninjas, and moving along the battlefield. If there are only holders they will be outnumbered, and if there are only ninjas there will be no teamplay.
Also, a group of 2-3 great players CAN hold a 8 terrible players team. Of course, they can't hold a normal 8 guys team, playing together and doing up/down attacks and good blocks. However, I already fought against groups of 6/8 with a friend or alone, and luck or not, I won some. The fact is that sometime players with a huge outnumber will try to have the kill at all cost, means teamkills, bad strikes, opportunities, a melee can be changed in three seconds. As an example, during the last Nation Cup against NL, I had a lot of guys on me, they all attacked, they teamhit /teamkilled themselves, and I just had to finish the survivors. (And I got killed by the last one :( )
However, I agree with the fact that a player who always runs, even with good allies, with the single goal to get easy kills, even if his team get massacred, is pretty useless. But there are some situations where running is better than holding.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: SneakyFellow on June 05, 2013, 04:38:47 pm
Very good guide!
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Mathias on June 09, 2013, 08:23:47 am
While I may not be the best groupfighter I am good enough to see how well done this guide was in the tactics of groupfighting. I will be using this guide in a melee tournament with my team Scrubs with Dragonpuff,William, and I. This is going to be basis of our tactics. Again thank you for making this guide  ;D
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Phoen!x on October 13, 2014, 05:08:59 pm
Great work !
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: Vaska on October 13, 2014, 06:18:54 pm
This is a good guide but do not think you will get succeed after reading this. In my opinion, to get improved at this game you should go and play, just play. The experience and each hour spent on it will make you better.
Title: Re: Groupfighting guide
Post by: KL4R1N0G4MPR0S on October 13, 2014, 11:59:46 pm
This is a good guide but do not think you will get succeed after reading this. In my opinion, to get improved at this game you should go and play, just play. The experience and each hour spent on it will make you better.
Yep. You should figure out all this stuff for yourselves :) - thats how you will subconsciously react well in GF