Author Topic: A Dozen Inexpensive Ways to Improve Your Personal Impression (By Cal Kinzer)  (Read 11556 times)

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Offline munky-wunky

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And then the reb army was like all you need are a Rifle, leathers, and a cover (hat) shoes not needed but helpful
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 06:42:45 pm by munk »
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Offline Duuring

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I understand, and you make a good explanation in this post; I'm just saying that you can't say 'They were volunteers' as an explanation of why they kept their equipment in a lousy state. Or threw it away. Even saying they were a militia doesn't really explain that fact - You had so-called Schutterijen, local militia companies, in the Netherlands who were just as uniformed as the regulars or National Militia. The National militia, in fact, was an almost fully conscripted corps - The name militia wasn't entirely appropriate, maybe.

Didn't the rebels once throw away all their greatcoats in summer only to freeze almost to death in the winter, making Lee's planned surprise assault impossible?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 06:44:06 pm by Duuring »

Offline Millander

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I meant Volunteers as that they were in volunteer regiments,brigades,divisions,corps. I wouldnt say a modern American or British Infantryman is unsiciplined and throws his gear away because he is a volunteer. Its the name of the orginization.
Of course, I also think lines should be able to move in double rank without having emotional breakdowns.

Offline Duuring

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Silly volunteers making other volunteers look stupid.

It's quite interesting how many 'historians' write down the Nationale Militie was of a secondary standard and performed badly, just because they had Militie in their name. They weren't, and didn't. They were organized, trained, armed and dressed at the same level of the regulars - the only difference is that they were largely conscripts.

Fun fact : - There were 35 Battalions of Infantry in the Dutch army (not counting the Nassau units), and 51 of Militia.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 06:51:00 pm by Duuring »

Offline Olafson

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I guess you can not really compare an American Army of that time with an European Army of that time. I still can not believe that soldiers just threw away their equipment without getting punished. It just sounds weird to me. But everything about the American Civil War is so wierd. Nothing seems regulated and people just do what they want. Atleast thats my overall impression of it. They do not seem to care for the look either, while in Europe regiments did care how they looked and performed. Its just confusing.

Offline munky-wunky

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I guess you can not really compare an American Army of that time with an European Army of that time. I still can not believe that soldiers just threw away their equipment without getting punished. It just sounds weird to me. But everything about the American Civil War is so wierd. Nothing seems regulated and people just do what they want. Atleast thats my overall impression of it. They do not seem to care for the look either, while in Europe regiments did care how they looked and performed. Its just confusing.

Well ACW was a long Gritty war with both side fighting to the last man over that there way of life was going to end if the other side won. There were no dress parades,  this was a slug out fight.  Now I read many book about ACW and troop were marching 10 -20 miles a day, now to make it easier they would try to make there gear as streamline as possible. Keep the Bare minimum gear. Say putting gear in blacket rolls ect. Also America realized that pretty  uniforms were useless in combat and keep it simple.
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Offline munky-wunky

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Also no troop really put blanket rolls on the top of there knapsack is was to heavy that way and less streamline.
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Offline Millander

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Well they did care somewhat how they looked, Western troops ditching their forage caps for slouch hats was a fashion statement. same with the Iron Brigades hardees etc. An example from a book I read said that one reason for this was America had no military culture or tradition. There were 17,000 men in the regular army and almost all of them were in remote outposts in the west. Most people cared more about the next harvest then joining the army.

 Europeans at the time had centuries of military tradition and fashion. You can see this in the elaborate uniforms of Hussars and the extremely strict discipline. in the beginning of the war a man was more likely to say how do yes do sir? than than address him in a proper military manner.

US - No millitary tradition
EU - Centuries of Millitary tradition
Of course, I also think lines should be able to move in double rank without having emotional breakdowns.

Offline Millander

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I would think they would be.
Of course, I also think lines should be able to move in double rank without having emotional breakdowns.

Offline Duuring

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I would think they would be.

Depends on unit and commander. As items were mass-dumped, it seems the universal rule was no.

Munk, a unit trowing everything away is in no way more mobile. The French were packed with gear, 30 kilo is no overestmation, yet they marched the fastest of all armies. The only reason Americans threw away gear was laziness.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 09:52:54 pm by Duuring »

Offline Millander

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When a company was ordered to fall in they fall in. If they were ordered to conduct a dress parade they did.

Also I think if given the chance a man would like to march lighter Duuring. Im sure even a robust French Grenadier in 1805 would have liked to have had the chance to ditch anything that wasent needed so he may the lighter on the march. Not to go faster but to be more confortable. I wouldnt classify a man who marches 20 miles a day for weeks on end "lazy"

 However I think the important matter is that its difficult to compare the Volunteer armies of the civil war to the armies of the Napoleonic Wars. The mindsets were to different.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 10:01:23 pm by Millander »
Of course, I also think lines should be able to move in double rank without having emotional breakdowns.

Offline Duuring

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Of course they would have liked to ditch things. But name one thing on a full-packed French soldier he really didn't need - I wish you good luck.

Why did they march 20 miles a day? Because the army told him too. If they would have been given liberty on that as well, I don't they (or anyone!) would still march it every day.

Offline Duuring

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That big bear skin hat...

Bearskins were ordered to be left in the depot during the campaign and were to be abandoned (for the line grenadiers) in 1812 - Yet they were carried on en masse. Why? Pride!

I believe you on your word the order exists, but, define 'pack lightly'.

Offline Millander

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In an order issued by the AoP, Board of Officers, for the Chancellorsville campaign, it states: “Two mules per Regiment, to carry camp kettles, rice, beans, & c. are all that are allowed “

Also another interesting thing I read

Quote
Evidence  suggest that many soldiers “lost” their bayonets, on the campaign, which tends to support the general adage that bayonet combat was not as frequent as the living history community would believe, or present. A visiting British officer commented upon a review of Arkansas troops in 1863: “ Most of them were armed with Enfield rifles captured from the enemy. Many, however had thrown away their bayonets…they asserted they have never met Yankees who would wait for that weapon.” [iii]


Some early war units wore Bear skins caps however ditched them event on parade for two main reasons.
A. They wearent confortable to wear while marching.
B. They made you a target compared the normal looking guy next to you.

 Some men even took the plates of their slings for their cartridge boc's so they wouldnt be wearing anything shiny.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 10:32:09 pm by Millander »
Of course, I also think lines should be able to move in double rank without having emotional breakdowns.

Offline Duuring

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Every French battalion had three wagons to carry things - Yet they still marched quickly.

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Some early war units wore Bear skins caps however ditched them event on parade for two main reasons.
A. They wearent confortable to wear while marching.
B. They made you a target compared the normal looking guy next to you.

Now, this is something typically different for our two periods. By the way, bearskins were almost never worn during the march.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2013, 10:34:37 pm by Duuring »