Author Topic: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)  (Read 278941 times)

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Offline McPero

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2715 on: September 30, 2017, 11:55:15 pm »
Stannis would be much better for smallfolk than Tywin. Tywin is completly ruthless while Stannis has compashion just doesn't shows it.

Offline Audiate

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2716 on: October 01, 2017, 09:54:19 pm »
No. Both have straight up no care for the little man.

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2717 on: October 02, 2017, 12:41:06 am »
Stannis would be much better for smallfolk than Tywin. Tywin is completly ruthless while Stannis has compashion just doesn't shows it.
ye dude

Offline McPero

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2718 on: October 02, 2017, 05:37:30 pm »
No. Both have straight up no care for the little man.
Tywin actually cares more about lowborn. Tywin kept peace, order and welfare of Seven Kingdoms for his entire adult life, He served well as Hand for Aerys even though Aerys was rude to him because he was jealous and might even rape his wife. Think how many lives Tywin saved with Red Wedding. And you can't really blame him for killing Elia and her children since Robert would have done it anyways. Also can't blame him for raiding Riverlands because if you pay attention small folk says everyone is the same, even Beric takes food from them and gives them some kind of payment on paper which they can't eat can they. Tywin wanted to end war fast to minimize damage caused to realm. Only thing that is questionable in his career is sack of Kingslanding though idk if there is any confirmation he order the sack or his soldiers went crazy but he probably did. And for hating Tyrion he has good reasons. Tyrion triggers Tywins ptsd connected to his father Tytos. He is afraid Tyrion would become leader of Lannisters some day and he would be mocked like Tytos was. Tywin might suspect Tyrion is Aerys' child. Also Tywin really loved his wife and was the only thing that he had that was for him and not for realm and house Lannister and Tyrion killed her even though it is not his fault. Tywin's actions are much better for lowborn than Dany's she is a child and horrible ruler but just because she has good intent she is considered good character.

Stannis is justice obsessed and if he would be like Tywin he would accept Renly's offer and take Stormlands, while Renly would take Kingslanding capturing Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei and other Lannisters and force Tywin to bent the knee (Renly would promise him that he will return Cersei, Tyrion and Jamie once he beats Robb) and than finish off Robb and Greyjoys and peace would be restored. No one could oppose power of Reach and Stormlands.

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2719 on: October 02, 2017, 10:59:06 pm »
You say 'be like Tywin by accepting Renly's offer' as if that's a good thing. How Renly tries to justify his usurpation of his own flesh and blood is beyond me. Stannis is not only the rightful King, but his tendency towards duty and justice would serve the smallfolk well.
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Offline Audiate

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2720 on: October 03, 2017, 12:32:54 am »
I like how you 180 flipped your opinion, lol.

No, Tywin did none of those things for the little man. He did them with political gain in mind.

Tyrion did nothing to his father to get mistreated. Tywin was a terrible father. The fuck are you trying to defend there? The Toothless Lion is no reason for Tywin to mistreat him. Joanna's death is no reason for Tywin to mistreat him. Seriously, the fuck you mean?

To be fair, Danny freed slaves because she wanted to. It wasn't even a good idea going into it, who would have known she would walk away with the Unsullied at her side and the love of Meereen? She acted because she saw injustice and she wanted it corrected. That's far better for the little guy (slaves were usually lower on the ladder than peasants (the little guys) on Earth) than anything Tywin had ever done, and Tywin never considered the little guy. Danny's entire decision was made on people being oppressed and that requiring correction.

You have a stupid argument.

Offline McPero

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2721 on: October 03, 2017, 07:59:27 pm »
You say 'be like Tywin by accepting Renly's offer' as if that's a good thing. How Renly tries to justify his usurpation of his own flesh and blood is beyond me. Stannis is not only the rightful King, but his tendency towards duty and justice would serve the smallfolk well.

We are talking better for smallfolk not what is correct by Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture succesion. Renly would end war fast while Stannis would bring a long war. Even if he would be better ruler his installation as king would cause to much damage to realm.

I like how you 180 flipped your opinion, lol.

No, Tywin did none of those things for the little man. He did them with political gain in mind.

Tyrion did nothing to his father to get mistreated. Tywin was a terrible father. The fuck are you trying to defend there? The Toothless Lion is no reason for Tywin to mistreat him. Joanna's death is no reason for Tywin to mistreat him. Seriously, the fuck you mean?

To be fair, Danny freed slaves because she wanted to. It wasn't even a good idea going into it, who would have known she would walk away with the Unsullied at her side and the love of Meereen? She acted because she saw injustice and she wanted it corrected. That's far better for the little guy (slaves were usually lower on the ladder than peasants (the little guys) on Earth) than anything Tywin had ever done, and Tywin never considered the little guy. Danny's entire decision was made on people being oppressed and that requiring correction.

You have a stupid argument.
Yeah I changed my mind Tywin was actually better. Tywin's reasons for hating Tyrion might seem shit reasons, but you live in soft society where as this is middle ages we are talking about. Someone like Randel Taryl or any wildling, many northeners would just kill a child like Tyrion, Tywin decided to keep him for the benefit of the House. What benefit did Tywin have from ruling as a King's hand for Aerys? He got his wife raped (maybe) and disrespected by Aerys. He had little political gain from it, only the respect from nobles of the realm maybe. But yes he did a lot of things for political gains but he needed power to bring peace and prosperity to Seven Kingdoms.

Dany brought only chaos to slaver's bay. If you give slaves freedom they are thrown out of owner's house and becomes a beggar that would self himself to slavery if it could. Peasant and slave is not much difference since they invented feudalism because peasants produce more than slaves, since they are motivated to work because they think they are free and work for themselves. Only benefit to being peasant was that if you could escape to city and become part of some guild or a trader if you had the talents. Of course slaves were abused more but usually owner had no interest in hurting them, because a hurt worker is worse than healthier one, especially since slaves in slaver's bay are mostly personal slaves (owned by a slaver) while in Rome there was much more state slaves, those had it rough. Dany also owns dragons which is equal to nuclear weapons nowadays, and she see them as her lovely kids.

Stannis wouldn't be a bad King but him becoming King would be pretty bloody.

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2722 on: October 04, 2017, 12:31:28 am »
You say 'be like Tywin by accepting Renly's offer' as if that's a good thing. How Renly tries to justify his usurpation of his own flesh and blood is beyond me. Stannis is not only the rightful King, but his tendency towards duty and justice would serve the smallfolk well.

A quick war is meaningless if the sovereign at the end of it isn't fit to rule, which I don't think Renly is. Renly is nice and charistmatic, which is why people like him; but these characteristics do not make the Kingdom prosper nor does it secure the rights of its subjects; a strong man with the mind for justice does.
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Offline Audiate

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2723 on: October 04, 2017, 02:45:13 am »
You're impossible to have a conversation with, McPero.

Offline McPero

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2724 on: October 04, 2017, 06:11:10 am »
You say 'be like Tywin by accepting Renly's offer' as if that's a good thing. How Renly tries to justify his usurpation of his own flesh and blood is beyond me. Stannis is not only the rightful King, but his tendency towards duty and justice would serve the smallfolk well.

A quick war is meaningless if the sovereign at the end of it isn't fit to rule, which I don't think Renly is. Renly is nice and charistmatic, which is why people like him; but these characteristics do not make the Kingdom prosper nor does it secure the rights of its subjects; a strong man with the mind for justice does.
Renly seems like a bit better version of Robert regarding rulership. They both had charisma and ability to attract their vassals, only Renly shows more interest in ruling and not just parting. And Robert reign wasn't bad since small council ruled in his stead, which would be done again because Vayrs, LF would manipulate him pretty easily, while Stannis would probably execute Littlefinger. And ruled mostly by his own.

Offline Skipper

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2725 on: December 11, 2017, 12:10:58 am »
I understand that this discussion is well over a month old now. Regardless, I do want to get in on the debate and to share my views on the Stannis/Tywin discussion.

To clarify, I am going to be talking exclusively about the books here. Whilst Charles Dance's portrayal of Tywin Lannister is spot on, Stephen Dillane's portrayal of Stannis Baratheon is incredibly different.

I, personally, believe that out of the two of them, Tywin would make the better ruler.



1) Personal attributes.

On paper, both characters have many similar attributes. Both are stoic and stern, both know when and how to utilise fear and both are seasoned veterans of military campaigns. The differences, however, I feel lean in Tywin's favour. Let's take a look at some of the descriptions of the two characters before analysing which would be more efficient at ruling Westeros based on these differences.

So, firstly, Tywin:

Tyrion, Book 1, Chapter 56
"Tywin Lannister, Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West, was in his middle fifties, yet hard as a man of twenty. Even seated, he was tall, with long legs, broad shoulders, a flat stomach. His thin arms were corded with muscle. When his once-thick golden hair had begun to recede, he had commanded his barber to shave his head; Lord Tywin did not believe in half measures. He razored his lip and chin as well, but kept his side-whiskers, two great thickets of wiry golden hair that covered most of his cheeks from ear to jaw. His eyes were a pale green, flecked with gold. A fool more foolish than most had once jested that even Lord Tywin's shit was flecked with gold. Some said the man was still alive, deep in the bowels of Casterly Rock."
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Kevan, Tyrion, Book 4, Chapter 9
"Do you think he would allow you to take the black if you were not his own blood, and Joanna’s? Tywin seems a hard man to you, I know, but he is no harder than he’s had to be. Our own father was gentle and amiable, but so weak his bannermen mocked him in their cups. Some saw fit to defy him openly. Other lords borrowed our gold and never troubled to repay it. At court they japed of toothless lions. Even his mistress stole from him. A woman scarcely one step above a whore, and she helped herself to my mother’s jewels! It fell to Tywin to restore House Lannister to its proper place just as it fell to him to rule this realm, when he was no more than twenty. He bore that heavy burden for twenty years, and all it earned him was a mad king’s envy. Instead of the honor he deserved, he was made to suffer slights beyond count, yet he gave the Seven Kingdoms peace, plenty, and justice. He is a just man. You would be wise to trust him."
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Tyrion, Book 3, Chapter 19
"Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold."
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Pycell, Jaime, Book 5, Chapter 8
"I have served six kings, but here before us lies the greatest man I ever knew. Lord Tywin wore no crown, yet he was all a king should be."
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Genna, Jaime, Book 5, Chapter 33
"I was seven when Walder Frey persuaded my lord father to give my hand to Emm. His second son, not even his heir. Father was himself a thirdborn son, and younger children crave the approval of their elders. Frey sensed that weakness in him, and Father agreed for no better reason than to please him. My betrothal was announced at a feast with half the west in attendance. Ellyn Tarbeck laughed and the Red Lion went angry from the hall. The rest sat on their tongues. Only Tywin dared speak against the match. A boy of ten. Father turned as white as mare's milk, and Walder Frey was quivering. How could I not love him after that? That is not to say I approved of all he did, or much enjoyed the company of the man he became ... but every little girl needs a big brother to protect her. Tywin was big even when he was little."
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And, most importantly, this is what Stannis Barathon had to say about Tywin:

Quote from: Stannis Baratheon
"I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome. Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who’d so impressed us."

The quotes, descriptions and actions of Tywin all present a certain thematic story. Tywin's story is that of a young lord brought up in the court of a weak and inadequate ruling father. Constantly mocked and made to feel inadequate, before he was even 20, Tywin took it upon himself to adapt to the specific scenario he was in - a position lacking any respect or legitimacy, with powerful and ambitious vassals - by crushing the rebellions of House Reyne of Castamere and House Tarbeck of Tarbeck Hall. No other scenario would have worked for Tywin, he had to be as ruthless as he was to restore House Lannister to its former glory. The success of these military campaigns was so resounding that Tywin had the genius of glorifying the victories into immortal song in an attempt to establish permanent order and security, and to maintain a reputation for ruthlessness. Never again, under Tywin's personal rule, would he face any other rebellion.

Tyrion, Book 3, Chapter 3
"Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he’d heard “The Rains of Castamere” echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock."
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King Aerys Targaryen (the 'Mad King'), impressed by what he saw, struck up a close friendship with Tywin and, whilst Tywin was 20, made him hand of the king. Tywin administered the kingdom so well that some joked it was he, not Aerys, who was king.

Tywin was most likely inspired by a whole range of historic figures - Caesar Augustus or Napoleon Bonaparte, to name a few - however, the figure he reminds me of most is Cesare Borgia. Borgia, though limited in his successes and, arguably, overshadowed by his father, showed an incredible ability to execute the perfect mix of fear and wonder to maintain stability and keep him in power. He greatly inspired Machiavelli and is referenced often as an example in The Prince.

Quote from: Niccolo Machiavelli
"Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, it is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with."

And now, Stannis:

Varys, Eddard, Book 1, Chapter 58
"His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy. There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man."
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Donal Noye, Jon, Book 2, Chapter 6
"Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends. And Renly, that one, he’s copper, bright and shiny, pretty to look at but not worth all that much at the end of the day."
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Cersei, Sansa, Book 2, Chapter 60
"Were it anyone else outside the gates, I might hope to beguile him. But this is Stannis Baratheon. I'd have a better chance of seducing his horse."
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Tywin, Jaime, Book 4, Chapter 9
"This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some."
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Asha, Book 6, Chapter 42
"His eyes were sunk in deep pits, his close-cropped beard no more than a shadow across his hollow cheeks and bony jawbone. Yet there was power in his stare, an iron ferocity that told Asha this man would never, ever turn back from his course."
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There are two key traits that most well define Stannis Baratheon: Stubbornness and Justice. Stannis is obsessed with justice and honour, to the extent that he would rather die than disgrace his honour. His unwillingness to give in was just as prevalent.

There are two stories that best sum up Stannis Baratheon, the story of the peach (Renly, when negotiating with Stannis, mocked him with a peach. Something that kept Stannis frustrated long after. GRRM has said that the peach represents Stannis' inability to understand joy and the fact that he is exclusively focused on his honour, and also it reflects his stubborn nature as Stannis refused to learn how to laugh after Stefan Baratheon attempted to encourage it.) and the story of Davos' punishment. After saving the lives of those defending Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion, by smuggling in food, Davos was rewarded with a knighthood. However, Stannis also punished him by cleaving off his fingers.

To compare Tywin and Stannis, with regards to their personal traits and characteristics, is no easy task. However, the way I see it, the difference lies in an age old philosophy debate.

Is it better to be pragmatic or principled?

Tywin is the clear representation of pragmatism - instead of pertaining any specific ideology, Tywin is consistently shown as adaptive and tends to rationally make the best decision (in his mind) in every scenario. He ruthlessly destroyed House Reyne and House Tarbeck because the scenario required him to do so. He sacked King's Landing and ordered the murder of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys because, no matter how dishonourable and cruel it may have appeared, he needed to do so in order to prove absolute loyalty to Robert Baratheon.

Quote from: Tywin Lannister
"We had come late to Robert's cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert's relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar's children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children."

Stannis, meanwhile, represents principle/idealism. He is just to the extent that it becomes unjust. Book Stannis is, essentially, a combination of show Eddard Stark and Mance Rayder. In the same way that neither of these mentioned figures would bend the knee in the face of certain annihilation, Stannis would rather break than forfeit his honour, justice or principled ideas. In doing this, Eddard triggered a war and got his entire host killed, whilst Mance very nearly got all of the wildlings killed or exiled (lucky for them, Jon took the hit).

Even though it may hurt him in certain scenarios, Stannis would more likely defend his own beliefs than adapt to improve his standing- and, thus, the standing of the kingdom. In-fact, the only time in the entire book franchise that Stannis does something pragmatic is when
Spoiler
he kills Renly
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but even then, it seems strangely out of character and is most likely down to his manipulation under Melisandre.

A nice comparison between the two in this regard is how they treat justice. We've already spoken about Stannis' perspective, with him removing Davos' fingers even though he saved the day, because the principle of justice still needs to stand in his view, regardless of context. Tywin isn't an unjust man (rather, Kevan actually calls him just to Tyrion in ASoS part 2) and certainly isn't arbitrary, however, I feel as though he would have handled things differently. This quote from Tywin himself springs to mind:

Quote from: Tywin Lannister
"When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say ‘I am the king’ is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will. When I’ve won your war for you, we will restore the king’s peace and the king’s justice."

Now of course, things get difficult here because pragmatism vs. principle is subjective. I, however, will always be on the side of pragmatism. The concept of realpolitik - the willingness to adapt to political scenarios - is far more likely to avoid conflict and create stability, which is better administration and leadership.



2) Experience.

Alongside the characters on paper, their history, personal experience and actual credibility have to be compared.

This shouldn't take long.

Tywin is vastly more experienced in statesmanship than Stannis. Before he was even an adult, Tywin openly declared to his father that he was restoring House Lannister to its proper place. He demanded all repayments of gold from vassal houses and immediately set about sending veterans of the War of the Ninepenny Kings to cleanse the Westerlands of bandits and looters. He destroyed the rebelling houses of Reyne and Tarbeck and established a golden period in the Westerlands built upon peace and stability, coupled with vast increases in wealth. At the age of 20 he was then summoned to King's Landing where he spent 20 years serving as hand of the king. He was so successful in his administration that many joked that he was in-fact the king, not Aerys. Tywin only left the post after he fell out with the king over several slights - including the king's interest in Tywin's wife, Joanna, the king's refusal to marry Rhaegar to Cersei and the king's placing of Jaime in the white tower of the king's guard (making Tyrion the heir to Casterly Rock).

Stannis, meanwhile, well, has almost no experience ruling. He's had plenty of experience fighting military campaigns, but actual administration? Not so much. The middle Baratheon child, he was not brought up to inherit his father's titles. When Robert became king, Renly was given Storm's End, whilst Stannis was assigned the small fortress-island of Dragonstone, one of the things he gets most upset about.

On experience, Tywin blows Stannis out of the water. The track-record says it all and Stannis simply cannot compete.

Overall, they would both likely make fairly good rulers - certainly, much better than someone as pathetic as Satan Daenarys - but Tywin's pragmatic nature, his experience and his ruthless efficiency mean that I have to give it to him.
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Offline Nero_

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2726 on: December 16, 2017, 01:42:42 pm »
what the fuck

Offline LiquidSkorpion

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2727 on: December 16, 2017, 05:05:47 pm »
Respect

Offline William

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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2728 on: March 19, 2018, 07:29:46 pm »
Do you all mind if I post my fanfiction here? I've been writing one for a while and this thread is dead
Check out my YT channel where I post NW www.youtube. com/c/CluelessWill
Spoiler
god damn, Anthony is smart, he was able to get the shit AEF to tie with the best reg in the game. The tactical geniusness needed to pull off such a feat is insane. He's the Erwin Rommel of NW.
i always get an erection when i check my subscrptions and see that phresh cluelesswill vid
It won't be FSE developing it, so it will come out!
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Re: Game of Thrones thread (USE SPOILERS)
« Reply #2729 on: March 19, 2018, 07:44:49 pm »
Can only be better than the last season.