Author Topic: The General Political Thread  (Read 527797 times)

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Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2205 on: December 23, 2017, 09:27:57 pm »
Why would it? It's an internal Spanish affair and the only ones opposing the rule of law are the seperatists.

Well, opposing the rule of law in the same way the East Berliners did in 1989....

Catalan Separatists keep winning elections. This is the fourth time in a row the separatist parties have won an overall majority in the regional parliament. Madrid can't keep playing this game.

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2206 on: December 23, 2017, 09:38:40 pm »
Present-day Spain is the same as the DDR? Context matters.

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Catalan Separatists keep winning elections. This is the fourth time in a row the separatist parties have won an overall majority in the regional parliament. Madrid can't keep playing this game.

They can, and they will.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2207 on: December 23, 2017, 10:21:16 pm »
You can't hold people against their will, if you keep doing that then things will get ugly and Rajoy has already had to resort to violence. Do you seriously believe that Madrid's current policy won't lead to more violence?

Offline Theodin

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2208 on: December 23, 2017, 10:44:46 pm »
Haven’t had a good Spanish civil war in a while

1x NA Duel- Runner up |  3x 3v3- 3rd place (Seadderol Deflatriots) (Ez Money) (71st Guards + Russian) | 1x Duel League- 4th place | 1x Regimental Groupfighting- 1st place (71st)  l  1x 2v2- 3rd Place (Vortex/Theodin) | TNWL Season 2 - 1st Place l 1x 2v2- 1st Place (Theodin/Elite) l 2x NANWL-
 71st, Nr8(LG) l 1x 4v4- 1st Place (RussianFury, Waste, NickCole, Theodin) l 1x Cav Joust- 2nd Place l 1x 4v4-
 3rd Place (Theodin, AsianP, Sleek, Godfried, Lurvy) l 1x 5v5 - 1st Place (RussianFury, Yoshie, Krastinov, Jorge, Theodin - Thanos and his children)

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2209 on: December 23, 2017, 10:54:46 pm »
But at least half the electorate doesn't actually support independence. You can't drag people out of a country against their will and it's retarded to think will not get uglier if Rajoy let's Catalonia go (not that he really can).

Look, whether Catalonia leaves Spain or not is not really my business or my concern. But looking at it objectively, the only way for Catalonia to be internationally recogized (and create a relationship with the EU, which is obviously needs to do) is if it leaves with the full agreement of Spain. I'm sure we agree on this, regardless of whether Spain does this willingly or due to foreign pressure.

To do this, Spain needs to alter its constitution: "The Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish Nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards". They need to change that. Even if they add an amendment, it's likely the Spanish Supreme Court will rule that any amendment allowing seperation from Spain is in conflict with the above section. And that title falls under the protected provision, requiring a 2/3 majority in both houses, a general election, again a 2/3 majority in both houses and then a referendum in all of Spain. In other words: Impossible.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 10:57:23 pm by Duuring »

Offline Furrnox

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2210 on: December 23, 2017, 11:30:06 pm »
You can't hold a people forever under a constitution they don't consider theirs.

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2211 on: December 23, 2017, 11:45:22 pm »
At least half are against it? Come on, there's probably a small majority in favour of independence hence why the separatists have won four elections in a row. If Madrid thought there was a pro-Spain majority they'd have called a referendum and won.

You can't keep a country together via constitutional law and that's not a good reason to overrule democracy. Anyway the EU is constantly proving that legally impossible things can happen extremely easily when there's a political need. I used to believe in the 'sanctity of the law' stuff too until I realised it gets trampled all the time and only brought up when it's convenient.

There's only really one or two ways out of this, which is:
a) Madrid calls a referendum and gambles on a win for Spanish unity, or
b) Madrid and Barcelona agree on a gradual separation that takes years



Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2212 on: December 23, 2017, 11:57:33 pm »
Won by incredibly small margins. Yes, it's entirely possible 51% of the people in Catalonia support independence, maybe even 52%, but more then that? There are several districts with strong pro-unity votes, including the whole city of Barcelona. Are you really expecting that 45-48% of people to just accept illegal secession?

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Anyway the EU is constantly proving that legally impossible things can happen extremely easily when there's a political need.

Like?

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If Madrid thought there was a pro-Spain majority they'd have called a referendum and won.

They wouldn't, because they can't. There are no legal provisions for having a referendum for independence and any attempt for it would get bogged down in the Supreme Court for years. Even if Rajoy wanted to, he couldn't call a referendum. And fact is that he actually doesn't want to. So it's not happening.

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b) Madrid and Barcelona agree on a gradual separation that takes years

Which requires constitutional change. Any attempt to do so without changing the constitutions means, again, the whole thing will for sure go to the Surpreme Court of Spain. Which has never looked kindly on seperatism.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 12:03:01 am by Duuring »

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2213 on: December 24, 2017, 01:15:26 am »
Won by incredibly small margins. Yes, it's entirely possible 51% of the people in Catalonia support independence, maybe even 52%, but more then that? There are several districts with strong pro-unity votes, including the whole city of Barcelona. Are you really expecting that 45-48% of people to just accept illegal secession?

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Anyway the EU is constantly proving that legally impossible things can happen extremely easily when there's a political need.

Like?

Germany and France breaking Maastricht debt to GDP rules, Greece and Italy's admittance to the Eurozone, Italian 2016/2017 bank bailouts, EU Airbus subsidies, ECB's 2015 closure of Greek banks...need I go on? All of those things were illegal yet everyone looked the other way because it was politically convenient to do so.

When there's a will there's a way. Legal difficulty is no excuse, especially when the law isn't really taken that seriously in modern Europe.

Offline Furrnox

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2214 on: December 24, 2017, 02:43:05 am »
It's called realism. You can't always play by the book to achieve what you want, it''s just silly to believe that just because it's in the constitution it's unfix-able.
So having said that I do not believe that the Spanish constitution can hold Catalonia hostage forever, should the independence movement keep going.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2017, 02:55:09 am by Furrnox »

Offline Duuring

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2215 on: December 24, 2017, 11:12:23 am »
The EU lacks enforcement, sure, but Spain, with its rather active supreme court, does not.  You really think the EU is going to command Spain to break its own constitutional law? More importantly, do you want that?

Offline StevenChilton

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2216 on: December 24, 2017, 03:50:02 pm »
The EU lacks enforcement, sure, but Spain, with its rather active supreme court, does not.  You really think the EU is going to command Spain to break its own constitutional law? More importantly, do you want that?

The EU can punish member states when it wants to it just doesn't apply the rules equally. Spain can fudge it, it's not actually that hard these days to ignore the law, and the EU doesn't need to get involved.

Offline Theodin

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2217 on: December 24, 2017, 05:00:53 pm »
And Euros mock US constitutionalists

1x NA Duel- Runner up |  3x 3v3- 3rd place (Seadderol Deflatriots) (Ez Money) (71st Guards + Russian) | 1x Duel League- 4th place | 1x Regimental Groupfighting- 1st place (71st)  l  1x 2v2- 3rd Place (Vortex/Theodin) | TNWL Season 2 - 1st Place l 1x 2v2- 1st Place (Theodin/Elite) l 2x NANWL-
 71st, Nr8(LG) l 1x 4v4- 1st Place (RussianFury, Waste, NickCole, Theodin) l 1x Cav Joust- 2nd Place l 1x 4v4-
 3rd Place (Theodin, AsianP, Sleek, Godfried, Lurvy) l 1x 5v5 - 1st Place (RussianFury, Yoshie, Krastinov, Jorge, Theodin - Thanos and his children)

Offline Conway

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2218 on: December 24, 2017, 08:37:44 pm »
And Euros mock US constitutionalists
To be fair not many EU countries give their citizens constitutional rights to hellfire missiles and nuclear bombs.

Offline Theodin

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Re: The General Political Thread - Brexit poll (#FSEXIT)
« Reply #2219 on: December 24, 2017, 09:30:19 pm »
And Euros mock US constitutionalists
To be fair not many EU countries give their citizens constitutional rights to hellfire missiles and nuclear bombs.
Not sure who does

1x NA Duel- Runner up |  3x 3v3- 3rd place (Seadderol Deflatriots) (Ez Money) (71st Guards + Russian) | 1x Duel League- 4th place | 1x Regimental Groupfighting- 1st place (71st)  l  1x 2v2- 3rd Place (Vortex/Theodin) | TNWL Season 2 - 1st Place l 1x 2v2- 1st Place (Theodin/Elite) l 2x NANWL-
 71st, Nr8(LG) l 1x 4v4- 1st Place (RussianFury, Waste, NickCole, Theodin) l 1x Cav Joust- 2nd Place l 1x 4v4-
 3rd Place (Theodin, AsianP, Sleek, Godfried, Lurvy) l 1x 5v5 - 1st Place (RussianFury, Yoshie, Krastinov, Jorge, Theodin - Thanos and his children)