Flying Squirrel Entertainment

The Lounge => Forum & Website => Topic started by: Hekko on January 27, 2013, 07:06:27 pm

Title: The community deserves better
Post by: Hekko on January 27, 2013, 07:06:27 pm
I am finally fed up with the idiotic way this community is ran by. The way justice and bans are handled, the way threads and criticism is met, how people are promoted within the community and the hypocrisy of the top level leadership.

Lets first discuss the current events. The choice to retire the 51st name, it was a ridiculous proposal and was both unpragmatic and unfair. Lets focus on the unfair bit though since pragmatism ultimately is of less consequence when discussing the fundamentals of the community. The 51st are getting a special privilege for the sake of their contribution to the game. Lets get one thing straight, the reason the 51st has contributed to the dlc is because of the closed-shop nepotistic ways of the developers got help for it. I am sure that the mapping done by 51st members could just as well have been done by people from the 84e or the 1er etc, as long as they would have been granted the Chance to do so. What few people know is that the 51st during the beta actively impeded allot of testing by being hellbent on playing commanderbattle whenever more than 4 people were on. I came to the beta fairly late, yet still the game had a gamebreaking flaw of a fixed height up-stab, which meant that you could duck under the up-stab by holding in a downstab. However, since I didn't belong to the cool kids I was ignored at first when pointing out that this was a serious problem. Infact I was probably the most active poster about gameplay in the beta, and alto of the stuff I posted about has gotten implemented since, just that it took several months after the release for it to be done. Once again because I didn't belong to the cool kids. All the while the 51st happily played commander battle and said that everything was fine. So I don't know if this is a legacy to protect. Post-release their saga is quite known to everyone. They hardly ever played and only popped onto the forum to state how much more awesome than everyone else they are. They then did the ultimate kick in the bollocks by leaving the community a couple of months after launch, essentially a statement that the game sucks. Now the top-level administrative staff is kicking everyone else, true fans who actually have stuck with the sub-par game, by protecting the rights of people who don't care about their rights, nor the game inventing new rules as they go. Regiments such as the 1er, 84e, 15e, 13e, 91st, 92nd, 59th, 63e, 8Lr and other regiments, have all contributed more to the betterment of the community than the 51st, infact the aforementioned regiments have designed and ran tournaments, they have hosted events for years, they have taken newcomers under their wing, and generally been a force of good in the community, and by singling the 51st out you are waving a huge middle finger in the face of the rest of the community.

Then we have the case about appointing admins. Apparently it's okay for Vince to appoint Kitty to a very senior adminposition by virtue of being his girlfriend, while when CarolusRex applies through normal channels, gets a bunch of +1 ones from current admins, he is denied based on the fact that he was a member of the 15e. Irregardless of the fact that he is competent and the fact that the 15e does no longer exist. So nepotism and cronyism is fine, where as using the reverse version to block a competent admin is apparently fine as well.Inconsistency at it's finest!

While on the subject of admin appointments, usually in an organisation one is promoted based on merit, FSE must have been asleep during that bit of the management seminar. Because FSE seems to promote admins rather on lack of merit than actual merit. Some of the senior administrative positions are/were held by people that were in no way competent to hold them. Lets first discuss Cenzii. The man abused his admin while being a normal admin to turn of lancers, change maps etc. Just because he was fed up with them. Something that under normal circumstances gets you removed from the administrative team, instead with the FSE group it gets you joint-head admin. His forum posting was also of an appalling character, the man who is supposed to calm down the community when the NW launch didn't go entirely to the satisfaction of the community, instead he makes an inflammatory post in all caps, pissing even more people off. I even confronted Praetorian the then head admin about it, as well as with some questions regarding the professionalism of the administrative staff now that it went from a mod to a paid DLC, as you can see from the screenshots Praetorian ultimately tries to say that Cenzii isn't affiliated with the FSE, so at least there have been some senior FSE representatives with some sense.

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdl.dropbox.com%2Fu%2F57177342%2FPraetorian.png&hash=29638a294020a16a8e8ba7914dd4ec9f09d09477)
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Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdl.dropbox.com%2Fu%2F57177342%2FPraetorian%25202.png&hash=1feec0276fca14971e39d4f46e99d8b1a9c89363)
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Cenzii also issued wonderful precedents regarding regiments such as the precedent that one does not need the permission of someone to make a regiment with the same name as long as it's done in a different timezone, this precedent has been countermanded since then, but it still shows how singularly unfit he was for that position.

Then we have Donald. While Donald is quite fit for normal run of the mill admining he is completely unfit if he ever is in a position where he has a stake in the matter. The incident where some was parodying 92nd names for instance springs to mind, or incidents where people have been temporarily banned because they have asked whether or not he was pissy when he issued a ban. Sure admins should be respected, but it swings both ways, since the admin has more powers and tools they should also explain their reasoning when doing stuff if challenged, even if it's done in a less than polite way.

I have not that much experience with the US administrative policy, some of the recent choices make me wonder though how the American side chooses admins, and from what I have heard from other admins that play on US1 at times as well, is that some of the new US1 admins are tripping balls with their new adminpowers, waiting for opportunities to flex their strength for the least offence.

I don't think I need to even mention Olafon, however, at least he was honourable enough to admit to being wrong and stepping down as a result of his misbehaviour. (Although it has happened before as well).

Finally we have Vince&Deo who through their behaviour as admins moved from being the impartial mediators solving the issue about who has the right to the 51st name to a position where they antagonize unrelated parts of the community and become the perpetrators in the conflict. Vince also has a nasty habit of arbitrarily shutting down discussion simply for the sake of shutting it down. A bit in congruent that discussion on a forum for discussion gets locked.The biggest kicker here is that he locks threads as soon as he has replied, which is of course something an admin should do, but when the thread is concerning his administration of the forum he probably should leave it up after he has replied otherwise it looks, and in this case is, because he know his argument does not stand up to scrutiny. So essentially he makes an unfair ruling, when people try to question the ruling, he forces them into breaking the rules and then has them community banned. Well trolled Vince. You say that there is so much shit regarding regimental names etc, and that's why you try to stop it to the best of your ability, do you know why there has suddenly is a shit storm? Because you stirred it up!

As seen in my discussion I was hoping that with the move from MM to NW we'd have allot more of professionalism on the administrative side of things, turns out I was sorely mistaken. The community is dying, partly because of the design of the game (I am quite convinced that FSE has no idea of what ultimately made MM so loved, because as always the focus for the development seems to have been on pipe-tunes and other such stuff rather than gameplay, but that is a different matter). But also partly because of the way the community is being run. You are upsetting people that have donated money to the development of your next game and have been pro-FSE for a long time, so you are even hurting yourself by your incompetence. I made a post in the donators board about you needing an investor to get the funding. I had another reason for it, that I might as well divulge now, and that is the fact that it makes you answerable to someone, someone who only cares about profits, and satisfied customers, fans and community makers is a part of maximizing profits.

I have been running the two biggest recurring competitive events for NW, I was a beta tester, I helped to improve the melee (almost all changes to melee  have been present in my state-of-melee threads and beta feedbacks, albeit slowly and reluctantly), I have hosted a number of smaller events, I have been administrating the official servers and I have been running a regiment for most of the existence of NW. So you can say that I was a fan, I did my bit for the community, but you have now lost my support and respect, and I know that allot of other people feel the same way.

I'll give credit where credit is due, FSE are amazing coders, amazing modelers and Rejenorst is brilliant at getting the sounds together, however, you are completely and utterly unfit to run and administrate a community and all the evidence points to the point that you are unfit at running a company and designing the gameplay of  a game.

I am fairly sure that I will be removed from the administrative team, I am fairly sure I will be banned from the forum, I am fairly sure that I will be banned from the official servers, I am fairly sure I will be banned from the official linebattles (not that there are any) and I am fairly sure that I will be banned from the official TS. Still,  I do this because someone needs to stand up and let you know that you are driving off a cliff and you need to sort your shit out, or the market economy will sort you out, and you are stuck writing code for a soulless automated trading program. So for the sake of the community and yourselves, change something.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 27, 2013, 07:10:37 pm
Well bloody done Hekko. Most of this community major members have been avid fans of the Mount and Blade series for a long time, but as of late the way in which this community is ran has started to turn people like me away from the game. We deserve better.

You have my full support Hekko.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Mik_ on January 27, 2013, 07:16:15 pm
Hekko! What a lad, 100% agree with you, I agree with this shit admining and i stay away from the game now :(, this need to be changed.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 27, 2013, 07:22:08 pm
In this community any attempt at help, is read and immediately pointed out as mediocre  and every little flaw, every little error is handled as if the entire attempt is an utter failure and deserves to live in the gallows. On the forums, every person you meet, there is a 35% chance, or around there - that the person you meet will at one point will get in a argument with you, over the stupidest damn things. Although I think administration of the official servers is not that bad, but for everything else? Fucked up. At the least. I don't have a problem with the administrators, really. I have a problem with this damn community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: USE4life on January 27, 2013, 07:22:12 pm
Quick he has an opinion! BAN HIM BEFORE HE GETS CREDIBILITY!!!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 27, 2013, 07:22:21 pm
Hekko! What a lad, 100% agree with you, I agree with this shit admining and i stay away from the game now :(, this need to be changed.
This has to be the first time I can actually agree with Mike. It wasn't nearly this bad back on Taleworlds, but within a week of coming to this forum things went from bad to worse.

It's time for change, Hekko 2013!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 27, 2013, 07:22:29 pm
Well, I could not of said it better even if I tried. All is true.

It is a crying shame that Del boy Trotter(Vincenzo) and his kronies will pull up in their three wheeled yellow van and ban you for it. All we can do is hope that FSE's answer to Mussolini pauses a second and actually reads it.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Potterr on January 27, 2013, 07:23:24 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/4Jk6Dc5.gif)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Jack Spears on January 27, 2013, 07:23:46 pm
Agree!!!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Chaos on January 27, 2013, 07:25:22 pm
Hekko, you sir, are an amazing man.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Gallagher on January 27, 2013, 07:25:42 pm
Yep I agree. I have been turned away from this game because of the admining. The community is very different to a lot of games out there and deserves pulchritudinous admining for the support and time the community has given this game.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Bashy on January 27, 2013, 07:26:07 pm
Well said, chappy.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 27, 2013, 07:26:21 pm
Viva la revolution!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: [91st] Official on January 27, 2013, 07:26:59 pm
Very well put Hekko.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hawkes on January 27, 2013, 07:27:32 pm
I've always just turned a blind eye towards it as I've felt I had never really needed to stick my nose into it, however - what does slightly frustrate me about the management of this community, is the fact that it is slowly heading down the same path as TheWarZ administration. Alot of the factors Hekko mentioned involving moderation of the forums/community are very similar to the methods TheWarZ moderators used. In turn this just conjured a massive uproar from community members, and lead to simply more scrutinizing of the company/administrators in hand.

Sorry for making the comparison to such a horribly managed game/community, but FSE is heading down this road. I'm also starting to see the careless, recklessness of administration on these forums and I'd like to see it subdued.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Rackio on January 27, 2013, 07:27:40 pm
I agree with Hekko fully.
And its been a while but this also means im agreeing with Tavington xD
I always enjoy a good Hekko essay and i have not been disappointed in the slightest.
+1

Edit as people are wanting valid views on the topic.
(might as well try numbering)
1) i have been here since MM and have been in large regiment and then onto some regiments where our own little communities have been created. The regiments after the large one, i have had as my main target to create a community within them. This means that within Line battles we act or try to disciplined, outside of LBs the regiments have been an all equal environment meaning ranks and admin ship means little. Admins and officers who give out abuse are in turn receive abuse.
--- In the community I have noted that some admins have held grudges from line battles and have then gone onto be harsh to members of regiments they have felt hard done to. I have no proof but i can give an example- say a guy was team killing or team kicking then admin then sees the people who have received kicks trying to stop it but then they get annoyed and kick back, they are then temp banned or kicked.
2) The cool kids part of Hekkos essay. Alot of members see it as an admin cool kid club, 'oh they are liked by high up admins so they get admin'. The normal everyday players just playing for fun then see it as a barrier to actually get involved with the community, this also going onto why the normal day players wont argue back to admins and just have to take the crappy end of the stick and either feel bitter or leave. In which case friends of mine have left the community as they can no longer be bothered with the admin politics and how it trickles down.....'oh hey guys i know a high up admin I can get him to ban you trololol'. Simple as fuck you guys...
3) The actual talking to people from within the community people post on the forums then just get crappy gifs or 'lame' posts, if they are at least posting then they ARE at least trying to join in. I have arguments with other regiments and a big argument with Tavington, however this doesn't mean i wont go ask for his advice or help solving a problem. We may not be the best of friends but I would rather turn to him or in fact any member of the was 15e as they would abuse you, but Hekko or Ward would sort it out, but as even some of the admin team are feeling disgruntled how does this help administration and functionality of this community while it still remain.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tali on January 27, 2013, 07:27:54 pm
I fully agree with you, Hekko. Very well put.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Viktor 90th on January 27, 2013, 07:28:10 pm
Although my imput probably isn't valid.
+1.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Ralph on January 27, 2013, 07:28:39 pm
 Nicely said. +1

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.relationship-economy.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F01%2Frevolution.jpg&hash=c53c4801e8cf240a123185d5f95a7a540c7b7736)
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 ;D
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Watson on January 27, 2013, 07:29:13 pm
Showing my support for the sake of it. +1 Me gusta.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: ThatSillyLucas on January 27, 2013, 07:31:15 pm
Bravo !!! +1 I love you Hekko !
DEMAND ME EVERYTHING ! Lets be honnest ! I PLAY NW BECAUSE THIS IS THE ONLY GAME ABOUT MY FAVORITE PERIOD !!
Kitty gf of vince ? wow sallopeeeee

Seriously I waited long for that.

Vive la révolution !

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flegraoullydechaine.fr%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F04%2Frevolution-de-1830-combat-devant-l-hotel-de-ville-28_07_1830.jpg&hash=33d0e0e63609e4e8293f3518680ba1d1c6ebfe81)
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PS : Thats why we wont donate
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hawkes on January 27, 2013, 07:32:25 pm
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMxX-QOV9tI[/youtube]

...Thought the lyrics were relevant.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Diplex on January 27, 2013, 07:32:50 pm
Mugir ces féroces soldats!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Affjoris on January 27, 2013, 07:34:00 pm
Glad someone had the balls to say this out loud.

+ Fucking 1

Also greetings from our friend Craig :D
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Posh on January 27, 2013, 07:34:13 pm
Well put over Hekko, You said what alot of people were thinking.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: ThatSillyLucas on January 27, 2013, 07:34:18 pm
Mugir ces féroces soldats!

Mugir vont ces soldats féroces*
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 27, 2013, 07:34:34 pm
Mugir ces féroces soldats!

Translation : The howling of these fearsome soldiers
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: DanyEle on January 27, 2013, 07:34:43 pm
You've got balls, brah!

Spoiler
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSAXxLpFDTjQ9tH_Q9pWQsqC3gq1zP7HxXFdP-3RCqIuJllNPRh)
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Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blade on January 27, 2013, 07:35:27 pm
I totally agree with you  ;)


+1
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 07:35:43 pm
Made the same quote on Taleworlds, but here is it again:

I, as probably many of you will find unsurprising, completely agree with this.

Hekko,  for putting everything so well and to the point, my compliments. Though everything typed by Hekko is a valid argument of their own, I would like to add something to this particular quote:

Quote
Then we have the case about appointing admins. Apparently it's okay for Vince to appoint Kitty to a very senior adminposition by virtue of being his girlfriend, while when CarolusRex applies through normal channels, gets a bunch of +1 ones from current admins, he is denied based on the fact that he was a member of the 15e. Irregardless of the fact that he is competent and the fact that the 15e does no longer exist. So nepotism and cronyism is fine, where as using the reverse version to block a competent admin is apparently fine as well.Inconsistency at it's finest!

The appointment of Kitty is the very height of incompetence and indeed, favoritism. It's not only a big middle finger to all proper admins, who worked their ways to positions they very well deserve, but it's also a big laugh-out at the community. "Hey guys, I r vince, im doing wut I wantz", to put it bluntly.

At the end of the day, I am someone who can't stand injustice. The injustice which is the case here, is that FSE makes rules, and decides to skip those rules whenever they feel like it.

Rules are universal, they also count for those who made them.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Thomaas on January 27, 2013, 07:36:18 pm
100% Agreed
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Diplex on January 27, 2013, 07:36:42 pm
Mugir ces féroces soldats!

Mugir vont ces soldats féroces*

Oh I looked at the official lyrics :P
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: ThatSillyLucas on January 27, 2013, 07:37:16 pm
Mugir ces féroces soldats!

Mugir vont ces soldats féroces*

Oh I looked at the official lyrics :P

what film , where ?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Peter Broetz on January 27, 2013, 07:38:15 pm
I completely agree with you, Hekko. Well said lad. ;)

+1
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: GrantyPooh on January 27, 2013, 07:38:28 pm
Daniel, Biggun and Craig's ban will not be in vain!


Vive la révolution !
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Harper on January 27, 2013, 07:38:33 pm
We have finally found something the entire community can believe in. +9001 internet points for Hekko.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Diplex on January 27, 2013, 07:39:00 pm
Mugir ces féroces soldats!

Mugir vont ces soldats féroces*

Oh I looked at the official lyrics :P

what film , where ?

Not a film, your national anthem you silly!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 07:39:37 pm
Nice lots of people viewing this i'd say about 30+.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Windbusche on January 27, 2013, 07:39:42 pm
We have finally found something the entire community can believe in. +9001 internet points for Hekko.
I wouldn't say the entire community.

The majority, sure, but that's about as far as I'd go.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Matthew on January 27, 2013, 07:40:10 pm
Hopefully people will take to heart what Hekko has got to say =)


[Edit] Yerh the picture was kinda immature sorry.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Harper on January 27, 2013, 07:40:30 pm
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.kym-cdn.com%2Fentries%2Ficons%2Foriginal%2F000%2F001%2F732%2Fwinternet.jpg&hash=4db1cbc47003305bd8a0f3e0809cc08d678d1c9c)
this
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Wolfy on January 27, 2013, 07:41:48 pm
+1
It's shitty how we have been treated these's past few weeks.Good to see some one who has the balls to say all this.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 07:41:58 pm
Now, as we are all posting our agreement, I think it is time we make a list of...well...demands.

My demands:
1. It's permitted to criticize an admin in a polite (yet strong) way. Words as 'Noobz' and 'badmin' are not to be used.
      - If an admin does something, he should be able to defend this action. If not, maybe the action was unnecessary.
      - Maybe a forum-section where you can file complaints to both IG and forum admins should be in order? Not pm-complains, which are too easily ignored.
2. The administration-system is done by the book, and without favoritism.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vikestad on January 27, 2013, 07:42:56 pm
Even though I might agree with most of what Hekko said, I find it ironic that certain community members jump on this band wagon now. It make it harder for me to be supportive. I mean, some of the community heroes can go ahead and pretend like they have a semblance of integrity, but it's so transparent to the people who actually know you.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Chaos on January 27, 2013, 07:42:58 pm
Now, as we are all posting our agreement, I think it is time we make a list of...well...demands.

My demands:
1. It's permitted to criticize an admin in a polite (yet strong) way. Words as 'Noobz' and 'badmin' are not to be used.
      - If an admin does something, he should be able to defend this action. If not, maybe the action was unnecessary.
2. The administration-system is done by the book, and without favoritism.
+1
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 27, 2013, 07:43:19 pm
Now, as we are all posting our agreement, I think it is time we make a list of...well...demands.

My demands:
1. It's permitted to criticize an admin in a polite (yet strong) way. Words as 'Noobz' and 'badmin' are not to be used.
      - If an admin does something, he should be able to defend this action. If not, maybe the action was unnecessary.
2. The administration-system is done by the book, and without favoritism.

And Mussolini's gag on the 51st is to BE removed.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Chibbi on January 27, 2013, 07:43:38 pm
Now, as we are all posting our agreement, I think it is time we make a list of...well...demands.

My demands:
1. It's permitted to criticize an admin in a polite (yet strong) way. Words as 'Noobz' and 'badmin' are not to be used.
      - If an admin does something, he should be able to defend this action. If not, maybe the action was unnecessary.
2. The administration-system is done by the book, and without favoritism.

Your #2 will never work :( Nepotism is strong in everything in the world.  :P
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 07:44:00 pm
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg72.imageshack.us%2Fimg72%2F2987%2Fdwightyes.gif&hash=1580c8d333b1d7bb29d068b1843c3076d434dfed)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Neon on January 27, 2013, 07:45:35 pm
This has my full support.

Nicely done Hekko.  :D
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Althalus on January 27, 2013, 07:46:23 pm
Hekko, while I may have had some disagreements with you in the past, you have gained with this post as much respect as you possibly could.
+1
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 07:46:49 pm
Now, as we are all posting our agreement, I think it is time we make a list of...well...demands.

My demands:
1. It's permitted to criticize an admin in a polite (yet strong) way. Words as 'Noobz' and 'badmin' are not to be used.
      - If an admin does something, he should be able to defend this action. If not, maybe the action was unnecessary.
2. The administration-system is done by the book, and without favoritism.

Your #2 will never work :( Nepotism is strong in everything in the world.  :P

While admins who are more popular characters will certainly be preferred by FSE, there's a difference between choosing such a character and your so-called girlfriend.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Evanovic on January 27, 2013, 07:46:59 pm
Plain truth in this thread.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 07:47:52 pm
I agree 100%

The US community is starting to go to shit this will keep every ones shit together.
+1
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: TORN on January 27, 2013, 07:48:16 pm
You go girl!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Harry on January 27, 2013, 07:48:27 pm
This is a pretty serious issue and I agree on almost all points, but I am a little concerned already that some people have, as Vikestad said, joined the 'bandwagon' and people are already posting all these stupid videos, pictures, gifs etc without actually discussing their thoughts. This really needs to be talked out and I'd like more people to post their opinions, instead of this devolving into the meme fest which was the Champions of Europe.

So speak up people!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 07:49:37 pm
This is a pretty serious issue and I agree on almost all points, but I am a little concerned already that some people have, as Vikestad said, joined the 'bandwagon' and people are already posting all these stupid videos, pictures, gifs etc without actually discussing their thoughts. This really needs to be talked out and I'd like more people to post their opinions, instead of this devolving into the meme fest which was the Champions of Europe.

So speak up people!

Hear hear!

It's one thing to say you want to see things change. It's another one saying WHAT you want to see changed.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Connzcdf on January 27, 2013, 07:50:20 pm
The men of Cardiff. Or just me will join this struggle.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Svensson on January 27, 2013, 07:50:39 pm
This is a pretty serious issue and I agree on almost all points, but I am a little concerned already that some people have, as Vikestad said, joined the 'bandwagon' and people are already posting all these stupid videos, pictures, gifs etc without actually discussing their thoughts. This really needs to be talked out and I'd like more people to post their opinions, instead of this devolving into the meme fest which was the Champions of Europe.

This. I think it's incredibly important to maintain a serious discussion & debate in order to come up to an agreement. So please guys, do not for the love of Thor post popcorn pictures or write down blatant shit w/e.

Akira, I would suggest stop spamming useless one-liners.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 07:50:43 pm
I also wanna state the amount of trolls on now a days and how the admins deal with them in a wrong manner.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Althalus on January 27, 2013, 07:51:34 pm
To everyone who's speaking about bandwagons, support is support, and change is change. Let's let it play out as it will.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Gragnok on January 27, 2013, 07:51:55 pm
Could people stop posting immature crap like gifs and "you win one free internet" on this thread? That wont help anyone regardless of their stance on this issue it simply lowers the tone from mature debate to childish bullshit. People should show their agreement or disagreement maturely or not at all if they actually care.

This is a pretty serious issue and I agree on almost all points, but I am a little concerned already that some people have, as Vikestad said, joined the 'bandwagon' and people are already posting all these stupid videos, pictures, gifs etc without actually discussing their thoughts. This really needs to be talked out and I'd like more people to post their opinions, instead of this devolving into the meme fest which was the Champions of Europe.

So speak up people!

Yeah well said Harry. Didnt see your post before.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: PrideofNi on January 27, 2013, 07:52:03 pm
This is a pretty serious issue and I agree on almost all points, but I am a little concerned already that some people have, as Vikestad said, joined the 'bandwagon' and people are already posting all these stupid videos, pictures, gifs etc without actually discussing their thoughts. This really needs to be talked out and I'd like more people to post their opinions, instead of this devolving into the meme fest which was the Champions of Europe.

This. I think it's incredibly important to maintain a serious discussion & debate in order to come up to an agreement. So please guys, do not for the love of Thor post popcorn pictures or write down blatant shit w/e.


I asked for it before and I totally agree with this. Whether it be in this thread or a new one, I would like a place where people post their true opinions and suggestions.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Melton on January 27, 2013, 07:52:43 pm
I find it kind of depressing how the ones commenting reminds me of someone who's just alternatively pressing the "Like" button.
I don't know if it's fear or ignorance that has prevented anyone from taking notice or doing something about it in the first place. But for once someone is finally putting it out on the table.
I just hope people will start doing something about it rather than just act as if they support it.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: BlackDynamite on January 27, 2013, 07:53:14 pm
rip in peace guise. god bless craig :-*
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Scorpia on January 27, 2013, 07:53:21 pm
Support
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 07:53:29 pm
I suggest we open another thread, a more serious one, where we discuss what we want to see changed.

Meanwhile, this thread can be used as a way of showing your support.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: LaBelle on January 27, 2013, 07:53:47 pm
It's about time.  I'll also point out that a few admins of the community were a good portion of the Secession admin team.

And look how that mod turned out.  Favoritism was rampant, and anytime we said anything, we were labeled trolls.  Some of us were even banned from the community.  Well done Hekko, for voicing our opinions.  BUT THAT BEING SAID, it's a bit ironic that another "Community hero" had to be the one to say it in order for anyone to take it seriously. 
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 27, 2013, 07:53:57 pm
This is a pretty serious issue and I agree on almost all points, but I am a little concerned already that some people have, as Vikestad said, joined the 'bandwagon' and people are already posting all these stupid videos, pictures, gifs etc without actually discussing their thoughts. This really needs to be talked out and I'd like more people to post their opinions, instead of this devolving into the meme fest which was the Champions of Europe.

This. I think it's incredibly important to maintain a serious discussion & debate in order to come up to an agreement. So please guys, do not for the love of Thor post popcorn pictures or write down blatant shit w/e.



I asked for it before and I totally agree with this. Whether it be in this thread or a new one, I would like a place where people post their true opinions and suggestions.

Will he listen to them? A track record says otherwise and I fear he will do the usual tactic of post and lock.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Mack on January 27, 2013, 07:54:29 pm
Stop feeding the drama, please.. For god sake, you can also just await and let Hekko talk with any admin, since Hekko is a mature person. You don't all have to spam, REVOLUTION etc...  ;)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Diplex on January 27, 2013, 07:55:16 pm
Mugir ces féroces soldats!

Translation : The howling of these fearsome soldiers

Google Translator isnt always the answer.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 07:55:28 pm
Stop feeding the drama, please.. For god sake, you can also just await and let Hekko talk with any admin, since Hekko is a mature person. You don't all have to spam, REVOLUTION etc...  ;)

I think Hekko intended to get the community up by posting this. Otherwise, he would have sent it to the admins by pm.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 07:55:45 pm
Stop feeding the drama, please.. For god sake, you can also just await and let Hekko talk with any admin, since Hekko is a mature person. You don't all have to spam, REVOLUTION etc...  ;)
He's trying to send a message to the whole community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Althalus on January 27, 2013, 07:57:28 pm
Serious Discussion thread (https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=2650.0)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Affjoris on January 27, 2013, 07:58:24 pm
This is a pretty serious issue and I agree on almost all points, but I am a little concerned already that some people have, as Vikestad said, joined the 'bandwagon' and people are already posting all these stupid videos, pictures, gifs etc without actually discussing their thoughts. This really needs to be talked out and I'd like more people to post their opinions, instead of this devolving into the meme fest which was the Champions of Europe.

So speak up people!

Ok, lets do that then. I found my good friend Craig banned from the forums. Supposingly because of Harassment. When i asked what his ban was about, i got told that is was because of trolling, racism and discussing with the admins. While trolling might apply to his behavior from time to time, it was within boundaries. A warning would have been a good responds imo, but they had to give out a ban. This was because he was a supporter of the believe that the FSE was becoming corrupt and couldn't take criticism. Of course they are going to say otherwise but oh well. Then the fights moves to talesworld. Where Vince locked the mod revival squad page just because duurling and Craig are talking about how the FSE behaves. Yes it was off topic, but then again it should have been taken to PM's and not lock the tread i need to organise things. Then the whole olafson thing pops up as well, which is just another push in the wrong direction. I think the whole situation has been handeled very poor by the FSE team and the admins, and this is why i think the FSE should not be in any position to control the community.

Mind you that before this happend i had nothing against the FSE team, and only reformed my opinion on the recent events.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Thomaas on January 27, 2013, 08:01:05 pm
This is a pretty serious issue and I agree on almost all points, but I am a little concerned already that some people have, as Vikestad said, joined the 'bandwagon' and people are already posting all these stupid videos, pictures, gifs etc without actually discussing their thoughts. This really needs to be talked out and I'd like more people to post their opinions, instead of this devolving into the meme fest which was the Champions of Europe.

So speak up people!

Ok, lets do that then. I found my good friend Craig banned from the forums. Supposingly because of Harassment. When i asked what his ban was about, i got told that is was because of trolling, racism and discussing with the admins. While trolling might apply to his behavior from time to time, it was within boundaries. A warning would have been a good responds imo, but they had to give out a ban. This was because he was a supporter of the believe that the FSE was becoming corrupt and couldn't take criticism. Of course they are going to say otherwise but oh well. Then the fights moves to talesworld. Where Vince locked the mod revival squad page just because duurling and Craig are talking about how the FSE behaves. Yes it was off topic, but then again it should have been taken to PM's and not lock the tread i need to organise things. Then the whole olafson thing pops up as well, which is just another push in the wrong direction. I think the whole situation has been handeled very poor by the FSE team and the admins, and this is why i think the FSE should not be in any position to control the community.

Mind you that before this happend i had nothing against the FSE team, and only reformed my opinion on the recent events.

Very well said sir 
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 08:02:39 pm
On a side note on a not really serious side note:

Signature
Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg837.imageshack.us%2Fimg837%2F8245%2Frevolutionr.jpg&hash=358dff1757cd85eb2be4762988b87349de7781c5)
[close]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Furrnox on January 27, 2013, 08:03:08 pm
Wow.. I completely agree with you Hekko and this is one of the many reasons that made me quit the game about a month ago.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: ThatSillyLucas on January 27, 2013, 08:05:16 pm
I personally think that everyone deserves to have a judgement. Everyone can support or not no matter their past. Maybe some had been trolling or whatever but they still can  have a opinion and it shall be taken equally and as the other's opinions. Everyone is at the same level remember that.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Kator Viridian on January 27, 2013, 08:07:19 pm
Unfortunatly this had stemmed back from near the begining of MM Prussia, where favourtism over competance took over for the Developing AND the administration staff (Although some of them are pretty decent at their jobs). The community in itself had started to develope more into the game for gameplay wise than the Developement staff at one point, suggesting better ways for melee, more maps and even the beginings of the admin mod.

I'm glad to see that so many people agree that a decent reform is in the best interests in the MAJORITY of the community.

Anywho to jump on the bandwagon:

+75.3789
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: TORN on January 27, 2013, 08:08:23 pm
My ban request of olafson was meant to be a joke.
But it opened Olafson his eyes and he stepped down from his position.
+
Many times I said on teamspeak that a person should be banned because of bad behaviour. But the I got told the moderators won't ban people as quick because they would lose supporters of the new game.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Mekkil the Graet on January 27, 2013, 08:08:30 pm
My dear Hekko, once again you have succeeded in bringing attention to a vital topic in a well written and diplomatic way. You have said what needed to be said, and what others have been trying to point out for quite a while, however, it looks as though its gained a fair bit traction...

What I now hope for, is that these matters shall be changed to the better. But how do we go about doing it? Have you got any ideas yourself, Hekko?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vikestad on January 27, 2013, 08:09:16 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Sanderos25 on January 27, 2013, 08:10:05 pm
90th is in.. +85

In a single move Hekko has set Vince and the rest of the admin team check, Vince has been reading this for an hour  and knows what Im about to say.

Next move is for Vince, but if he makes the wrong one, his little empire collapses!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: LaBelle on January 27, 2013, 08:12:30 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

While I see your point and agree, now isn't the time to split the community when it's supposed to be a time of unity against a common foe.  We'll deal with the others later.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Althalus on January 27, 2013, 08:13:10 pm
90th is in.. +85

In a single move Hekko has set Vince and the rest of the admin team check, Vince has been reading this for an hour  and knows what Im about to say.

Next move is for Vince, but if he makes the wrong one, his little empire collapses!

Pretty much this.
Your move Vince.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 08:14:41 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

And this is relevant because?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vikestad on January 27, 2013, 08:15:29 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

While I see your point and agree, now isn't the time to split the community when it's supposed to be a time of unity against a common foe.  We'll deal with the others later.

Well, I am not immature or idealistic, so I'm out.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 08:16:22 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 08:19:52 pm
+1000000000000 to Hekko's original post.

Edit: I suppose I'll make some points here.

Vince has been shutting down all threads and discussions regarding this, when the people who are talking about it have donated to the development for THEIR game. For the sake of customer service, we should be being treated better, and the community should have a voice, without constantly wondering if their post will warrant them a mute or ban. Things need to change, I've been starting to stay away from the forums and NW because of this. To say the least, if this thread is locked, I hope you realize the consequences of your actions.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: LaBelle on January 27, 2013, 08:22:25 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

While I see your point and agree, now isn't the time to split the community when it's supposed to be a time of unity against a common foe.  We'll deal with the others later.

Well, I am not immature or idealistic, so I'm out.

...What?  I didn't say you were either of these things.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vikestad on January 27, 2013, 08:25:38 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.

You might have missed my point. I simply don't want to associate with douchebags, and even if I agree with most of Hekko's points, I might not agree with his main thesis that the community actually deserves better.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 08:27:35 pm
I've always just turned a blind eye towards it as I've felt I had never really needed to stick my nose into it, however - what does slightly frustrate me about the management of this community, is the fact that it is slowly heading down the same path as TheWarZ administration. Alot of the factors Hekko mentioned involving moderation of the forums/community are very similar to the methods TheWarZ moderators used. In turn this just conjured a massive uproar from community members, and lead to simply more scrutinizing of the company/administrators in hand.

Sorry for making the comparison to such a horribly managed game/community, but FSE is heading down this road. I'm also starting to see the careless, recklessness of administration on these forums and I'd like to see it subdued.
Just saw this post... Sadly I have to agree. The NW administration is starting to act like that of the WarZ game, and clearly this path doesn't work. We don't say this because we hate the mods, we say it because we care about FSE.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 08:29:44 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.

You might have missed my point. I simply don't want to associate with douchebags, and even if I agree with most of Hekko's points, I might not agree with his main thesis that the community actually deserves better.

How far can you see from your horse?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 08:33:13 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.

You might have missed my point. I simply don't want to associate with douchebags, and even if I agree with most of Hekko's points, I might not agree with his main thesis that the community actually deserves better.

How far can you see from your horse?

Gentlemen, gentlemen. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion. There has been made another thread to seriously discuss the matters which have risen.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Audiate on January 27, 2013, 08:33:24 pm
 I tip my hat to you, Hekko, and all brave enough to speak the words spoken today, or type, if seen in better preference. And to the so-called tyrants of FSE and the appointed administrators within and 'below' FSE... well...
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 08:35:37 pm
I tip my hat to you, Hekko. And to the so-called tyrants of FSE and the appointed administrators within and 'below' FSE... well...
+1
Without a community, FSE doesn't have a game. So for the love of god listen.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hawke on January 27, 2013, 08:36:32 pm
+1 to it all!

(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi233.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee111%2Fmojobluegecko%2Fwilliam-wallace-braveheart.gif&hash=5180c70158b6e0c592d27a7aa67cac5a2dd9a9dd)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: CrackMan on January 27, 2013, 08:38:50 pm
Oldo i agree with hekko but i just coudn't let this one slide

Galactic Socialistic Republic of Free MM

(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F--RaxYUfFNbc%2FUOgbDGeF1HI%2FAAAAAAAAEyg%2F0P6HzwpI12k%2Fs1600%2Finternet-fight.gif&hash=38bba971b08178b4da95dbb12295f5c605ca941a)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 08:39:05 pm
Popular Thread Is Popular
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftw.greywool.com%2Fi%2FYFB62.png&hash=f40514474bdbb6653d4177400c573b1229ea8314)
[close]

Anyway, the last thread specifically regarding the 51st name lock, Vince's post started with "I've never seen such a comotion about nothing". What we're trying to tell you, is it isn't just nothing. This is a serious issue, and your treating it like a community joke.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: pod455 on January 27, 2013, 08:42:03 pm

Anyway, the last thread specifically regarding the 51st name lock, Vince's post started with "I've never seen such a comotion about nothing". What we're trying to tell you, is it isn't just nothing. This is a serious issue, and your treating it like a community joke.
hey look! I can see my name!  ;D also, your using Internet explorer!?!?  >:(
 Anyway, I fully agree with hekko 110%
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: TORN on January 27, 2013, 08:43:11 pm
your using Interent explorer!?!?  >:(
No that is clearly internet explorer
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: pod455 on January 27, 2013, 08:47:17 pm
your using Interent explorer!?!?  >:(
No that is clearly internet explorer
my mistake
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Althalus on January 27, 2013, 08:49:55 pm
your using Interent explorer!?!?  >:(
No that is clearly internet explorer
my mistake
We noticed.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 08:52:39 pm
Keep the trolling dow guys. This is a serious discussion that isgoing to influence the fate of FSE.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Windbusche on January 27, 2013, 08:52:56 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.

You might have missed my point. I simply don't want to associate with douchebags, and even if I agree with most of Hekko's points, I might not agree with his main thesis that the community actually deserves better.
EDIT: Withdrew.

I refuse to feed this pitiful rebellion.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 27, 2013, 08:54:53 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.

You might have missed my point. I simply don't want to associate with douchebags, and even if I agree with most of Hekko's points, I might not agree with his main thesis that the community actually deserves better.
+1

Do you two claw your faces in the mirror?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 08:55:53 pm
Windusche, you got beta for the next patch just because you are Vince's friend, and I like you a lot, but you're part of the point we're trying to prove.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Viktor 90th on January 27, 2013, 08:56:01 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.

You might have missed my point. I simply don't want to associate with douchebags, and even if I agree with most of Hekko's points, I might not agree with his main thesis that the community actually deserves better.
+1
You may wish to rethink that "+1" friend, i'd read. because whilst the quote has some valid points, it also mentions a sizable amount of the community as "douchebags".
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 08:56:27 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.

You might have missed my point. I simply don't want to associate with douchebags, and even if I agree with most of Hekko's points, I might not agree with his main thesis that the community actually deserves better.
+1

What are you? Masochists?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Thomaas on January 27, 2013, 08:56:39 pm
your using Interent explorer!?!?  >:(
No that is clearly internet explorer
my mistake
We noticed.



Guys For fuck sake stop trolling around on a serious post.....
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: DaMonkey on January 27, 2013, 08:57:19 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.

You might have missed my point. I simply don't want to associate with douchebags, and even if I agree with most of Hekko's points, I might not agree with his main thesis that the community actually deserves better.
+1
You may wish to rethink that "+1" friend, i'd read. because whilst the quote has some valid points, it also mentions a sizable amount of the community as "douchebags".

 There is a sizable amount of douchebags in the community, though.  ;)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 08:57:58 pm
Indeed there is, the problem is that that part of the community isn't the one being chastised.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 08:58:54 pm
Guys, guys, please. This is certainly not what Hekko wanted. Once again, there is another thread.

Try to talk about real problems and avoid personal accusations.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Affjoris on January 27, 2013, 08:59:05 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.

You might have missed my point. I simply don't want to associate with douchebags, and even if I agree with most of Hekko's points, I might not agree with his main thesis that the community actually deserves better.
+1

Ok, so according to you this community doesnt deserver better admins?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 08:59:33 pm
Tbh, most of the 'douchebags' are friendly douchebags. There are relatively few people i loathe. Most of the time it's a competitive rivalry that calls for some rather unjust words. It's toxic, spitefull and unnecesarily hateful. But 90%+ of people i badmouth and badmouth me are actually goodguys.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 27, 2013, 09:00:30 pm
The critique of the admining is fine, but if you host or admin a private server, and you run/admin it like a personal whorehouse, are we supposed to take you seriously if you comment in support of Hekko's post? I don't think so. I check the 84e logs for abuse every fourth of fifth day, and I talk with every admin who get too emotional. Point is, I get sick of some of you commenting who I know would do a lot worse.

Just because we say things are done badly, doesn't mean we say we could do better. We say, things SHOULD be done better.

You might have missed my point. I simply don't want to associate with douchebags, and even if I agree with most of Hekko's points, I might not agree with his main thesis that the community actually deserves better.
+1

Ok, so according to you this community doesnt deserver better admins?

If he sides with the loyalists, they will give him land. Nah, in all seriousness, he is just placing tongue in...
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 09:00:53 pm
If you go around and think everyone are douchebags, you might very well in fact yourself be a douchebag.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: mem95 on January 27, 2013, 09:02:11 pm
I can only agree with you, truly got my full support Hekko.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Diplex on January 27, 2013, 09:04:13 pm
I dont think these "Join the revolution" sigs are needed.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: TORN on January 27, 2013, 09:05:29 pm
Guys this post is about the admins and moderators. Not about the community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 09:06:04 pm
I dont think these "Join the revolution" sigs are needed.

How so?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Ralph on January 27, 2013, 09:06:27 pm
I dont think these "Join the revolution" sigs are needed.
Just a little fun, vital supporter.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:07:14 pm
The sigs aren't needed, but it's to show your support for Hekko's revolution.

Hekko = Maximillion Robspierre
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Althalus on January 27, 2013, 09:08:13 pm
The sigs aren't needed, but it's to show your support for Hekko's revolution.

Hekko = Maximillion Robspierre

So after he reforms the community, he's going to kill a ton of us?
Sounds good to me.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Diplex on January 27, 2013, 09:08:15 pm
I dont think these "Join the revolution" sigs are needed.
Just a little fun, vital supporter.

Yeah, just a little fun? I think that this is a fairly serious discussion regarding the future of this community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 27, 2013, 09:09:10 pm
I dont think these "Join the revolution" sigs are needed.
Just a little fun, vital supporter.

Yeah, just a little fun? I think that this is a fairly serious discussion regarding the future of this community.

Oh, you think Vincenzo will bother to act on it? How long have you known him?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:09:23 pm
The sigs aren't needed, but it's to show your support for Hekko's revolution.

Hekko = Maximillion Robspierre

So after he reforms the community, he's going to kill a ton of us?
Sounds good to me.
Off with the heads!

Anyway, I've yet to see an admin post, and I'd like to see one. For the love of god though, don't make it a lock message  ::)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Windbusche on January 27, 2013, 09:09:33 pm
Because if you post here supporting it, why have unlinked signatures showing you support some 'revolution'?
There's really no need. I feel like an FSE Civil War is absolutely silly. We should save our Civil War for BCoF.

In any case, I do agree the FSE team does have some downsides, some which haven't been extremely noticeable to me as I tend to support them in their every endeavor, and I do however still stand by their side on their recent actions, minus the muting of the people who wanted to speak their mind. [E.G Daniel].

I'd also like to point out, by my earlier +1, that I have withdrawn that comment as obviously anyone who speaks otherwise is going to be called a blind supporter, but unfortunately, that's a double sided blade. As I can simply say the same about any of you revolutionaries.

So my suggestion is this; why not drop down the arms, and simply let people speak their minds. If they disagree, assault not the person; but the issue.

This community is one of the friendliest places I've been in, until now. I'd like to see THAT changed. It's not so much the admins in my books. It's the general hostility between the Admins and the People, and even between the People themselves.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Althalus on January 27, 2013, 09:09:50 pm
I dont think these "Join the revolution" sigs are needed.
Just a little fun, vital supporter.

Yeah, just a little fun? I think that this is a fairly serious discussion regarding the future of this community.

True, but I think they're a good touch. If the moderators see these everywhere, they might react. Which they have so far failed to do.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Mik_ on January 27, 2013, 09:10:16 pm
Admins will just let this thread go dead and things will return to normal most likely.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Diplex on January 27, 2013, 09:11:52 pm
I dont think these "Join the revolution" sigs are needed.
Just a little fun, vital supporter.

Yeah, just a little fun? I think that this is a fairly serious discussion regarding the future of this community.

Oh, you think Vincenzo will bother to act on it? How long have you known him?

Well over a year, and you?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Dasvi2018 on January 27, 2013, 09:12:11 pm
+1 for the original post and one more thing. I am surprised about the lack of COMMUNITY moderators. We have the devs a girlfriend and mod maker who inspired the devs and some old vets, only 3 of them. We need more moderators of the forum from the player base. there should be a moderator apllication thread for it.

Edit: LOL everyone is viewing it
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 09:12:26 pm
I dont think these "Join the revolution" sigs are needed.
Just a little fun, vital supporter.

Yeah, just a little fun? I think that this is a fairly serious discussion regarding the future of this community.

Still, what's wrong with it?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: nicknick12 on January 27, 2013, 09:12:37 pm
1+
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 27, 2013, 09:12:55 pm
I dont think these "Join the revolution" sigs are needed.
Just a little fun, vital supporter.

Yeah, just a little fun? I think that this is a fairly serious discussion regarding the future of this community.

Oh, you think Vincenzo will bother to act on it? How long have you known him?

Well over a year, and you?

I've known of him and his 'caring' attitude for 2 years. He won't do thing other than to post a half-cut reply and proceed to lock the thread.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:12:57 pm
Well I'll likely get banned, and perhaps I'll return and try and make a small MM community for the banned, revolution supporters.

Also... 1400th post!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Audiate on January 27, 2013, 09:13:02 pm
 Alright, look. So many people are here, so many are involved. Whether or not everyone here likes each other, doesn't even matter.

 The fact is: the community is upset. Labeling them as douchebags for it is wrong. However, the fact that the developers do put a lot of work into the game specifically for the community, is just as true.

 We can argue, and argue, and argue. I've done it so many times in the past in this bloody community. This community has predators, preys, parasites, producers... but a lot more predators and parasites than there should be. Let's stop trying to suck each others blood and just work on fixing the actual problem.

 From what I've gathered, the community is mad about a lot of things. I haven't had a severe problem with it, until today I had no problem with it at all, but there are honestly plenty of genuine problems here. Locking this thread isn't going to do the mods/admins any good, and making this a bigger flame than it already is will just put the community into a bigger hole with the mods/admins.

 I'd recommend peaceful conclusions. Perhaps the community can take the time out of a day to sit down with the current admins, developers, etc., and figure out the simplest way things can be solved. Not to argue, but to cooperate. This doesn't need to turn into an internet war.

 May I suggest starting with things that would improve us all as a community as a whole, members, mods, and all; current admin selection/selecting a better fit group of admins; repealing/altering the Sports Jersey/Regiment Name retiring nonsense; determining a better selection of testers for betas rather than "best buddies" and "famous advertisers". Expanding on that last one, playtesters should be selected for their knowledge of what their doing, not so they can experience the game first because they're liked by the developers.

 I could go on and on and on with this, but that would contradict myself. We need to quickly find something to fix these messes, each in a well-looked-at manner. Take my recommendations, or not, but dare I say someone needs to take action--because no one currently is.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Ralph on January 27, 2013, 09:15:29 pm
I dont think these "Join the revolution" sigs are needed.
Just a little fun, vital supporter.

Yeah, just a little fun? I think that this is a fairly serious discussion regarding the future of this community.
It's something to represent how the community wants better.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Gokiller on January 27, 2013, 09:15:41 pm
I miss Praetorian.  :'(
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Mik_ on January 27, 2013, 09:16:00 pm
I'll wait for hancock to deliver the milk and cookies  ;)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Death by EMP on January 27, 2013, 09:16:42 pm
Alright, I know this is mostly a EU thing, but I feel this needs to be posted, because all of you are really starting to annoy me. I will also like to say that I am posting this as me and not an official admin. 

Okay, before I discuss about anything else I would like to get the thing that bothers me most out of the way.
Quote
I have not that much experience with the US administrative policy, some of the recent choices make me wonder though how the American side chooses admins, and from what I have heard from other admins that play on US1 at times as well, is that some of the new US1 admins are tripping balls with their new adminpowers, waiting for opportunities to flex their strength for the least offence.

Who the fuck are you to talk about the US administration when not a single admin I have spoke to has ever seen you on US1 before. As far as I am concerned, you have absolutely no place to talk about the US admin team. I feel sorry for the EU admin team that you are even acting this way while being an admin. In case you have forgotten, which you clearly have not since you talk so much about the professionalism administration is so important, you are acting completely out of line in accordance to admin regulations. I hope that someone sane enough sees that you are in no shape to hold the responsibility of admin, if you cannot even keep yourself professional in public. The same thing could be said about the EU admin team, but at least we have the respect to not talk about it in public, and rather keep it through PMs like we are supposed to do. The way you have presented yourself in this thread immediately shows me that you have no concern for the community and rather you wish to bash everyone you can possibly think of something to bash them about, for your own personal "Internet glory". This is absolutely unacceptable.

Now to address everyone rather than just the OP.

Have you all lost your minds?! We are playing a GAME this is not a bloody government! I don't care how many people know you in a online game that has no point at all in the world except to give others enjoyment. We are not building some kind of internet social hierarchy. Nobody is better than someone else. None of you have any right to tell FSE what to do with the community, and FSE has no right to tell the community to do. All you guys are doing is arguing over the most pointless in meaningless things in this life. This game is not real life. I can honestly and shamelessly say that Napoleonic Wars and Warband have been a enormous part of my life. Especially this past year. I spend hours a day playing and admining US1, so everyone can enjoy the game like it should be. I probably play more than just about 95% of the players. I spend countless hours of my free-time on this game and NEVER have I feet any amount of importance to anything. You should not either. I think we could all agree that Diplex is the most known NW player. That does not make him some kind of spokesperson or official. It does not make him any more important than you or I. So those of you acting as though you are some kind of icon and that if you say something FSE should listen and respond, you are completely out of your mind. You all are starting to disgust and annoy me with your constant rants and crying like children about how FSE is not doing things right with the community. FSE did not make the freaking community, you guys did. FSE made the game. You...Us. we made this community, and anything we feel is wrong, is our fault. Leave FSE alone about the community. Yes, they may have had some out there business practices with the community, but I think they have since learned. If you feel so strongly about FSE, going on THEIR forums and basically calling them useless is not going to solve anything. FSE is ABSOLUTELY taking the right path by telling you guys to pm all concerns to them. They DO deal with them. Just because something is not done the way you want it does not mean you have a right to decry the developers of this wonderful game, who were kind enough to give you a game for a cheap price that has stayed with you for such a long time. You cannot deny that you like this game, if you are so concerned about the community around it.

So in conclusion of what I have asked of you guys, please, for the sake of all of us, stop making fools of yourselves and just enjoy the damn game, and if you feel you can no longer find enjoyment in it, stop playing it. Nobody is making you play this game, and you all need to grow up and realize that.

If one of the developers or lead admins finds what I posted is wrong, I will gladly step down, because at least I might actually be able to enjoy the game without people acting as if I am some sort of idol. I just want to play and enjoy the game, I don't want people to watch and critique my every move.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: red.h on January 27, 2013, 09:18:30 pm
Alright, I know this is mostly a EU thing, but I feel this needs to be posted, because all of you are really starting to annoy me. I will also like to say that I am posting this as me and not an official admin. 

Okay, before I discuss about anything else I would like to get the thing that bothers me most out of the way.
Quote
I have not that much experience with the US administrative policy, some of the recent choices make me wonder though how the American side chooses admins, and from what I have heard from other admins that play on US1 at times as well, is that some of the new US1 admins are tripping balls with their new adminpowers, waiting for opportunities to flex their strength for the least offence.

Who the fuck are you to talk about the US administration when not a single admin I have spoke to has ever seen you on US1 before. As far as I am concerned, you have absolutely no place to talk about the US admin team. I feel sorry for the EU admin team that you are even acting this way while being an admin. In case you have forgotten, which you clearly have not since you talk so much about the professionalism administration is so important, you are acting completely out of line in accordance to admin regulations. I hope that someone sane enough sees that you are in no shape to hold the responsibility of admin, if you cannot even keep yourself professional in public. The same thing could be said about the EU admin team, but at least we have the respect to not talk about it in public, and rather keep it through PMs like we are supposed to do. The way you have presented yourself in this thread immediately shows me that you have no concern for the community and rather you wish to bash everyone you can possibly think of something to bash them about, for your own personal "Internet glory". This is absolutely unacceptable.

Now to address everyone rather than just the OP.

Have you all lost your minds?! We are playing a GAME this is not a bloody government! I don't care how many people know you in a online game that has no point at all in the world except to give others enjoyment. We are not building some kind of internet social hierarchy. Nobody is better than someone else. None of you have any right to tell FSE what to do with the community, and FSE has no right to tell the community to do. All you guys are doing is arguing over the most pointless in meaningless things in this life. This game is not real life. I can honestly and shamelessly say that Napoleonic Wars and Warband have been a enormous part of my life. Especially this past year. I spend hours a day playing and admining US1, so everyone can enjoy the game like it should be. I probably play more than just about 95% of the players. I spend countless hours of my free-time on this game and NEVER have I feet any amount of importance to anything. You should not either. I think we could all agree that Diplex is the most known NW player. That does not make him some kind of spokesperson or official. It does not make him any more important than you or I. So those of you acting as though you are some kind of icon and that if you say something FSE should listen and respond, you are completely out of your mind. You all are starting to disgust and annoy me with your constant rants and crying like children about how FSE is not doing things right with the community. FSE did not make the freaking community, you guys did. FSE made the game. You...Us. we made this community, and anything we feel is wrong, is our fault. Leave FSE alone about the community. Yes, they may have had some out there business practices with the community, but I think they have since learned. If you feel so strongly about FSE, going on THEIR forums and basically calling them useless is not going to solve anything. FSE is ABSOLUTELY taking the right path by telling you guys to pm all concerns to them. They DO deal with them. Just because something is not done the way you want it does not mean you have a right to decry the developers of this wonderful game, who were kind enough to give you a game for a cheap price that has stayed with you for such a long time. You cannot deny that you like this game, if you are so concerned about the community around it.

So in conclusion of what I have asked of you guys, please, for the sake of all of us, stop making fools of yourselves and just enjoy the damn game, and if you feel you can no longer find enjoyment in it, stop playing it. Nobody is making you play this game, and you all need to grow up and realize that.

How about you get off your high horse, asshole.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:18:37 pm
Point proven.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Dasvi2018 on January 27, 2013, 09:18:44 pm
I am waiting for Vince's reply to all this :D
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Sotilas on January 27, 2013, 09:18:50 pm
Kitty is not an community manager anymore.
https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4869
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Windbusche on January 27, 2013, 09:19:17 pm
How about you get off your high horse, asshole.
You pretty much just went ahead and gave proof to my earlier point.

Well done, sir.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vikestad on January 27, 2013, 09:20:19 pm
Sid is just whoring for drama as usual. A perfect example of why the community is shit. A lot of talk and no substance. The revolutionary bs is just immature and shouldn't be given any attention by anyone half serious..
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:20:32 pm
I am waiting for Vince's reply to all this :D
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Ralph on January 27, 2013, 09:21:18 pm
Hey Crunch, look right below your forum name. Without the community, BCoF would fail.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Dasvi2018 on January 27, 2013, 09:21:31 pm
Sid is just whoring for drama as usual. A perfect example of why the community is shit. A lot of talk and no substance. The revolutionary bs is just immature and shouldn't be given any attention by anyone half serious..

Big point here, don't be rebels without a cause
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: TORN on January 27, 2013, 09:21:36 pm
As since this thread has been posted i've seen moderators watching this thread.
I guess they're going mental in PM's or in teamspeak.
I think i speak for alot of people when I say.

We want a response!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 09:21:40 pm
How about you get off your high horse, asshole.
You pretty much just went ahead and gave proof to my earlier point.

Well done, sir.
Point is proven, Every one here is starting to get balls of steel and telling the utmost truth to tell people to fuck off.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Audiate on January 27, 2013, 09:21:58 pm
 No no, now this isn't even right. Guys, calm down, and try to resolve this. This is seriously turning into the most retarded thing ever (and I use retarded with the definition provided in your average dictionary): an internet war. Look better upon yourselves, all you, loyalists and rebels alike, for I have no intent on picking either side, because both are so flawed and so biased beyond disrepair. For this reason, I declare myself a free, separate state of neutralist, that I wish for this to all be mutually appeased, in that I've had enough, and I'm sure there are several others who agree with me, with half the balls I do to declare it. That said, don't pick sides. Just make things better.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Death by EMP on January 27, 2013, 09:22:29 pm
I am not sure how I am on a high horse when I pretty much publicly admitted that I am no better than anyone else and I am getting rather tired of being an admin because of being publicly idolized. All of you need to grow up.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blade on January 27, 2013, 09:22:48 pm
Kitty is not an community manager anymore.
https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4869

*This is the message from our beloved Daniel*

She is still an admin and the only reason for it is because of her relation with Vince.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 09:23:01 pm
Alright, I know this is mostly a EU thing, but I feel this needs to be posted, because all of you are really starting to annoy me. I will also like to say that I am posting this as me and not an official admin. 

Okay, before I discuss about anything else I would like to get the thing that bothers me most out of the way.
Quote
I have not that much experience with the US administrative policy, some of the recent choices make me wonder though how the American side chooses admins, and from what I have heard from other admins that play on US1 at times as well, is that some of the new US1 admins are tripping balls with their new adminpowers, waiting for opportunities to flex their strength for the least offence.

Who the fuck are you to talk about the US administration when not a single admin I have spoke to has ever seen you on US1 before. As far as I am concerned, you have absolutely no place to talk about the US admin team. I feel sorry for the EU admin team that you are even acting this way while being an admin. In case you have forgotten, which you clearly have not since you talk so much about the professionalism administration is so important, you are acting completely out of line in accordance to admin regulations. I hope that someone sane enough sees that you are in no shape to hold the responsibility of admin, if you cannot even keep yourself professional in public. The same thing could be said about the EU admin team, but at least we have the respect to not talk about it in public, and rather keep it through PMs like we are supposed to do. The way you have presented yourself in this thread immediately shows me that you have no concern for the community and rather you wish to bash everyone you can possibly think of something to bash them about, for your own personal "Internet glory". This is absolutely unacceptable.

Now to address everyone rather than just the OP.

Have you all lost your minds?! We are playing a GAME this is not a bloody government! I don't care how many people know you in a online game that has no point at all in the world except to give others enjoyment. We are not building some kind of internet social hierarchy. Nobody is better than someone else. None of you have any right to tell FSE what to do with the community, and FSE has no right to tell the community to do. All you guys are doing is arguing over the most pointless in meaningless things in this life. This game is not real life. I can honestly and shamelessly say that Napoleonic Wars and Warband have been a enormous part of my life. Especially this past year. I spend hours a day playing and admining US1, so everyone can enjoy the game like it should be. I probably play more than just about 95% of the players. I spend countless hours of my free-time on this game and NEVER have I feet any amount of importance to anything. You should not either. I think we could all agree that Diplex is the most known NW player. That does not make him some kind of spokesperson or official. It does not make him any more important than you or I. So those of you acting as though you are some kind of icon and that if you say something FSE should listen and respond, you are completely out of your mind. You all are starting to disgust and annoy me with your constant rants and crying like children about how FSE is not doing things right with the community. FSE did not make the freaking community, you guys did. FSE made the game. You...Us. we made this community, and anything we feel is wrong, is our fault. Leave FSE alone about the community. Yes, they may have had some out there business practices with the community, but I think they have since learned. If you feel so strongly about FSE, going on THEIR forums and basically calling them useless is not going to solve anything. FSE is ABSOLUTELY taking the right path by telling you guys to pm all concerns to them. They DO deal with them. Just because something is not done the way you want it does not mean you have a right to decry the developers of this wonderful game, who were kind enough to give you a game for a cheap price that has stayed with you for such a long time. You cannot deny that you like this game, if you are so concerned about the community around it.

So in conclusion of what I have asked of you guys, please, for the sake of all of us, stop making fools of yourselves and just enjoy the damn game, and if you feel you can no longer find enjoyment in it, stop playing it. Nobody is making you play this game, and you all need to grow up and realize that.

If one of the developers or lead admins finds what I posted is wrong, I will gladly step down, because at least I might actually be able to enjoy the game without people acting as if I am some sort of idol. I just want to play and enjoy the game, I don't want people to watch and critique my every move.

Lol. You are as contradictory as one can get. Gtfo troll  ;D
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Wolfy on January 27, 2013, 09:23:07 pm
Vince has not posted yet because if he makes a mistake then BCoF will most likely fail.His project is based on the community funding the game.So no community,no game.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Evanovic on January 27, 2013, 09:23:09 pm
Who the fuck are you to talk about the US administration when not a single admin I have spoke to has ever seen you on US1 before. As far as I am concerned, you have absolutely no place to talk about the US admin team. I feel sorry for the EU admin team that you are even acting this way while being an admin. In case you have forgotten, which you clearly have not since you talk so much about the professionalism administration is so important, you are acting completely out of line in accordance to admin regulations. I hope that someone sane enough sees that you are in no shape to hold the responsibility of admin, if you cannot even keep yourself professional in public. The same thing could be said about the EU admin team, but at least we have the respect to not talk about it in public, and rather keep it through PMs like we are supposed to do. The way you have presented yourself in this thread immediately shows me that you have no concern for the community and rather you wish to bash everyone you can possibly think of something to bash them about, for your own personal "Internet glory". This is absolutely unacceptable.

There are plenty of eyes watching the practice of the newer US administration, not just Hekko's. Take my post as whichever insinuation you want.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Death by EMP on January 27, 2013, 09:23:31 pm
No no, now this isn't even right. Guys, calm down, and try to resolve this. This is seriously turning into the most retarded thing ever (and I use retarded with the definition provided in your average dictionary): an internet war. Look better upon yourselves, all you, loyalists and rebels alike, for I have no intent on picking either side, because both are so flawed and so biased beyond disrepair. For this reason, I declare myself a free, separate state of neutralist, that I wish for this to all be mutually appeased, in that I've had enough, and I'm sure there are several others who agree with me, with half the balls I do to declare it. That said, don't pick sides. Just make things better.
I did the same Audiate, as I clealry stated I did not like the practices either sides were using.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Dasvi2018 on January 27, 2013, 09:24:47 pm
OK things are on the balance now. Win and we will change the community forever, lose and BCoF will be done forever. (And don't bring popcorns)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Althalus on January 27, 2013, 09:25:44 pm
I must say, this started out with a good motive. I am still here, I am still supporting reform, but not like this. Soon enough this thread will die, and everything will go back to how it was, if we keep going the way we're going.
This needs to happen.
But not like this, boys. Not like this.

/Dramatic speech
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:26:20 pm
OK things are on the balance now. Win and we will change the community forever, lose and BCoF will be done forever. (And don't bring popcorns)
The problem is that the mods haven't replied and until then, this is going to continue.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 27, 2013, 09:26:27 pm
You are 100% correct, Hekko. It's also amusing how many people in this thread are suddenly agreeing with Hekko when they've been sucking admin dick for ages, playing along with the bullshit, and generally helping this game sink lower than the titanic.

There's no way in hell I'm buying BCOF in state things are now.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Audiate on January 27, 2013, 09:26:34 pm
OK things are on the balance now. Win and we will change the community forever, lose and BCoF will be done forever. (And don't bring popcorns)

 Win? Lose? This isn't a game of chess, but if it is, our objective is to meet a stalemate!

 NEITHER SIDE HAS ANYTHING TO WIN, BOTH SIDES HAVE EVERYTHING TO LOSE. SO THINK.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Rigadoon on January 27, 2013, 09:26:48 pm
Perhaps I've just been out of the loop recently, but admin misconduct has rarely affected my ingame or community experience in a negative way. Perhaps their system of selecting and promoting admins is fault but I have to ask, is it really that bad? Have you actually suffered from it? Perhaps there are those who have but from what I've seen, if the admin is truly at fault, the situation is quickly resolved and the admin makes sure not to make the same mistakes again.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blade on January 27, 2013, 09:26:57 pm
Vince has not posted yet because if he makes a mistake then BCoF will most likely fail.His project is based on the community funding the game.So no community,no game.

21:26 - Daniel: Even though this situation will probably cause the death of BCoF there was not much chance of it coming out anyways with only 9% of its "required" funds.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Dasvi2018 on January 27, 2013, 09:27:28 pm
OK things are on the balance now. Win and we will change the community forever, lose and BCoF will be done forever. (And don't bring popcorns)
The problem is that the mods haven't replied and until then, this is going to continue.

They are preparing. Let us give a good image. After all don't forget that we insult them with this
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Death by EMP on January 27, 2013, 09:27:31 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Chaos on January 27, 2013, 09:27:35 pm
Now I'm unsure whether to donate or not, I want to donate mainly because I'm looking forward to what the Dev's can create but at the same time, after reading all these comments and such, I'm now in a dilemma. I'm almost certain now that new people who have just joined this community will look at this and think, what's the point?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: LaBelle on January 27, 2013, 09:27:50 pm
Nothing is balanced.  Nothing will be fixed.  While I support the admins being brought back down to Earth, I don't support the community acting as if it's all the admins fault.  Secession died for the same reason.  This will pass, you will all play BCoF and bitch and complain because there's something not to your liking about it, and then after that?  You'll continue to play BCoF and NW.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Dasvi2018 on January 27, 2013, 09:28:38 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.

Oh Dear  :'( first collateral damage
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 27, 2013, 09:28:45 pm
Perhaps I've just been out of the loop recently, but admin misconduct has rarely affected my ingame or community experience in a negative way. Perhaps their system of selecting and promoting admins is fault but I have to ask, is it really that bad? Have you actually suffered from it? Perhaps there are those who have but from what I've seen, if the admin is truly at fault, the situation is quickly resolved and the admin makes sure not to make the same mistakes again.

Yes, I bought NW and not MB: Vietnam. I did not pay money to have half the maps blown up by a cruel kid using a magnifying glass on an ant hill.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 27, 2013, 09:28:51 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.
Good, you were never fit for an admin position.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Crawford on January 27, 2013, 09:28:55 pm
Quote
I have not that much experience with the US administrative policy, some of the recent choices make me wonder though how the American side chooses admins, and from what I have heard from other admins that play on US1 at times as well, is that some of the new US1 admins are tripping balls with their new adminpowers, waiting for opportunities to flex their strength for the least offence.

Alright, I know this is mostly a EU thing, but I feel this needs to be posted, because all of you are really starting to annoy me. I will also like to say that I am posting this as me and not an official admin. 

Okay, before I discuss about anything else I would like to get the thing that bothers me most out of the way.
Quote
I have not that much experience with the US administrative policy, some of the recent choices make me wonder though how the American side chooses admins, and from what I have heard from other admins that play on US1 at times as well, is that some of the new US1 admins are tripping balls with their new adminpowers, waiting for opportunities to flex their strength for the least offence.

Who the fuck are you to talk about the US administration when not a single admin I have spoke to has ever seen you on US1 before. As far as I am concerned, you have absolutely no place to talk about the US admin team. I feel sorry for the EU admin team that you are even acting this way while being an admin. In case you have forgotten, which you clearly have not since you talk so much about the professionalism administration is so important, you are acting completely out of line in accordance to admin regulations. I hope that someone sane enough sees that you are in no shape to hold the responsibility of admin, if you cannot even keep yourself professional in public. The same thing could be said about the EU admin team, but at least we have the respect to not talk about it in public, and rather keep it through PMs like we are supposed to do. The way you have presented yourself in this thread immediately shows me that you have no concern for the community and rather you wish to bash everyone you can possibly think of something to bash them about, for your own personal "Internet glory". This is absolutely unacceptable.

Now to address everyone rather than just the OP.

Have you all lost your minds?! We are playing a GAME this is not a bloody government! I don't care how many people know you in a online game that has no point at all in the world except to give others enjoyment. We are not building some kind of internet social hierarchy. Nobody is better than someone else. None of you have any right to tell FSE what to do with the community, and FSE has no right to tell the community to do. All you guys are doing is arguing over the most pointless in meaningless things in this life. This game is not real life. I can honestly and shamelessly say that Napoleonic Wars and Warband have been a enormous part of my life. Especially this past year. I spend hours a day playing and admining US1, so everyone can enjoy the game like it should be. I probably play more than just about 95% of the players. I spend countless hours of my free-time on this game and NEVER have I feet any amount of importance to anything. You should not either. I think we could all agree that Diplex is the most known NW player. That does not make him some kind of spokesperson or official. It does not make him any more important than you or I. So those of you acting as though you are some kind of icon and that if you say something FSE should listen and respond, you are completely out of your mind. You all are starting to disgust and annoy me with your constant rants and crying like children about how FSE is not doing things right with the community. FSE did not make the freaking community, you guys did. FSE made the game. You...Us. we made this community, and anything we feel is wrong, is our fault. Leave FSE alone about the community. Yes, they may have had some out there business practices with the community, but I think they have since learned. If you feel so strongly about FSE, going on THEIR forums and basically calling them useless is not going to solve anything. FSE is ABSOLUTELY taking the right path by telling you guys to pm all concerns to them. They DO deal with them. Just because something is not done the way you want it does not mean you have a right to decry the developers of this wonderful game, who were kind enough to give you a game for a cheap price that has stayed with you for such a long time. You cannot deny that you like this game, if you are so concerned about the community around it.

So in conclusion of what I have asked of you guys, please, for the sake of all of us, stop making fools of yourselves and just enjoy the damn game, and if you feel you can no longer find enjoyment in it, stop playing it. Nobody is making you play this game, and you all need to grow up and realize that.


If you're not able to turn the other cheek when taking criticism without having a hissy fit then why are you even admin?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hadhod on January 27, 2013, 09:29:37 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.

That would be definately not good, because you seem like one of the few reasonable people in this thread.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: hherlev on January 27, 2013, 09:30:13 pm
I am waiting for Vince's reply to all this :D

(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.memegenerator.net%2Finstances%2F400x%2F25346838.jpg&hash=0d339f96cc2e5f35dffe003dce4f867ae99725b1)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Thomaas on January 27, 2013, 09:30:23 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.
Good, you were never fit for an admin position.

Bit harsh?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:30:33 pm
The entire community is waiting Vince, make your move.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 09:30:39 pm
I think it is clear that though we have different ideas and opinions, the majority of people here seem to agree things are done unproffesionally and should be changed.

Now, we should look to ourselves to create said change. Things indeed balanced - lets wait for an official FSE reply.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Jack1995_1 on January 27, 2013, 09:30:55 pm
EMP is right, this is a game. People are treating this as if it was a takeover. There are alot of +1's and "totally agree" posts, but not much actual content.  I might get some hate, but, who cares? I am treating this as a game, a place to play with friends, a way to spend time. There are two sides to every story, and each ban or kick will be based on evidence rather than "I don't like that guy" BAN. Right now, most of the community appears to be acting like 12 year olds, crying because they do not get their way. And about BCoF, even if the community goes to shit, even if half the player base leaves, people will still play it. Why? Because it will be a fun game. Not a way of life. A game.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 27, 2013, 09:31:03 pm
I am waiting for Vince's reply to all this :D

(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.memegenerator.net%2Finstances%2F400x%2F25346838.jpg&hash=0d339f96cc2e5f35dffe003dce4f867ae99725b1)

Yes, that is what it feels like he is doing, haha
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: red.h on January 27, 2013, 09:32:04 pm
Hey Crunch, look right below your forum name. Without the community, BCoF would fail.

BCoF is going to fail, its going to have shitty melee and FSE can't make their own engine for shit
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:32:08 pm
I think it is clear that though we have different ideas and opinions, the majority of people here seem to agree things are done unproffesionally and should be changed.

Now, we should look to ourselves to create said change. Things indeed balanced - lets wait for an official FSE reply.
FSE is trying to wait for us to wait quitly for a reply, and then not reply and let it die.  ::)

Keep the fires stoked until Vince comes.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 27, 2013, 09:32:54 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.
Good, you were never fit for an admin position.

Bit harsh?
Maybe, but nobody can deny it.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Thomaas on January 27, 2013, 09:34:25 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.
Good, you were never fit for an admin position.

Bit harsh?
Maybe, but nobody can deny it.

Its the fact he Tried For the community. He's done more than others....
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 27, 2013, 09:35:09 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.
Good, you were never fit for an admin position.

Bit harsh?
Maybe, but nobody can deny it.

Its the fact he Tried For the community. He's done more than others....
Okay.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:36:16 pm
Popular Thread Is Popular Indeed
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftw.greywool.com%2Fi%2FZ_LBE.png&hash=5b9b180ae5f2633aab435d896e952e85b0c71604)
[close]

@Vince
The success of your game is reliant on wether you say the right words, and now.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 09:36:48 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.
Good, you were never fit for an admin position.
Bit harsh?
Maybe, but nobody can deny it.
You should of never have gotten it in first place you were not up for the admin position nor' were you capable of being a good admin
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Dasvi2018 on January 27, 2013, 09:37:10 pm
Crunch did a lot. Faced some of the worst trolls. Spent countless hours on arguements and tried to squezze some fun out of this. please leave him alone for now
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:37:18 pm
I am waiting for Vince's reply to all this :D

(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.memegenerator.net%2Finstances%2F400x%2F25346838.jpg&hash=0d339f96cc2e5f35dffe003dce4f867ae99725b1)

Yes, that is what it feels like he is doing, haha
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: red.h on January 27, 2013, 09:37:36 pm
Popular Thread Is Popular Indeed
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ftw.greywool.com%2Fi%2FZ_LBE.png&hash=5b9b180ae5f2633aab435d896e952e85b0c71604)
[close]

@Vince
The success of your game is reliant on wether you say the right words, and now.

>his game

He just took a bunch of features from F&S and put them into a different time period.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Audiate on January 27, 2013, 09:37:42 pm
 Ugh. This community is in shambles. I'm going to demand you all stop and think about this. To do so, I will provide you all with the ingredients to do so.

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phlmetropolis.com%2FCats.jpg&hash=3db03fe13f517f96b9642c9f0a2165776cc6020d)
[close]
Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.gawkerassets.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F9%2F2010%2F06%2Fmentats.jpg&hash=08d11f151c3a726d9ad49b4a85c50d73c8c2cbcc)
[close]
Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.wisegeek.com%2Fhuman-brain.jpg&hash=e9f8fde487a72f83d878238b7e5c6070d60ad1f9)
[close]

 Now that you're all greased up for education, let's reflect back on what I've said previously. I'm not biased, and what I said is probably the least biased thing here. So start reading.

Spoiler
Alright, look. So many people are here, so many are involved. Whether or not everyone here likes each other, doesn't even matter.

 The fact is: the community is upset. Labeling them as douchebags for it is wrong. However, the fact that the developers do put a lot of work into the game specifically for the community, is just as true.

 We can argue, and argue, and argue. I've done it so many times in the past in this bloody community. This community has predators, preys, parasites, producers... but a lot more predators and parasites than there should be. Let's stop trying to suck each others blood and just work on fixing the actual problem.

 From what I've gathered, the community is mad about a lot of things. I haven't had a severe problem with it, until today I had no problem with it at all, but there are honestly plenty of genuine problems here. Locking this thread isn't going to do the mods/admins any good, and making this a bigger flame than it already is will just put the community into a bigger hole with the mods/admins.

 I'd recommend peaceful conclusions. Perhaps the community can take the time out of a day to sit down with the current admins, developers, etc., and figure out the simplest way things can be solved. Not to argue, but to cooperate. This doesn't need to turn into an internet war.

 May I suggest starting with things that would improve us all as a community as a whole, members, mods, and all; current admin selection/selecting a better fit group of admins; repealing/altering the Sports Jersey/Regiment Name retiring nonsense; determining a better selection of testers for betas rather than "best buddies" and "famous advertisers". Expanding on that last one, playtesters should be selected for their knowledge of what their doing, not so they can experience the game first because they're liked by the developers.

 I could go on and on and on with this, but that would contradict myself. We need to quickly find something to fix these messes, each in a well-looked-at manner. Take my recommendations, or not, but dare I say someone needs to take action--because no one currently is.
No no, now this isn't even right. Guys, calm down, and try to resolve this. This is seriously turning into the most retarded thing ever (and I use retarded with the definition provided in your average dictionary): an internet war. Look better upon yourselves, all you, loyalists and rebels alike, for I have no intent on picking either side, because both are so flawed and so biased beyond disrepair. For this reason, I declare myself a free, separate state of neutralist, that I wish for this to all be mutually appeased, in that I've had enough, and I'm sure there are several others who agree with me, with half the balls I do to declare it. That said, don't pick sides. Just make things better.
[close]

 Please, community, this game and the 1% of its community that I actually enjoy saved me from my depression and anxiety. Don't let it come back, as a personal request from me to you all. No one truly wants heads on spikes, no one truly wants a war... so please, stop this nonsense, and change your diapers.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 27, 2013, 09:38:03 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.
Good, you were never fit for an admin position.
Bit harsh?
Maybe, but nobody can deny it.
You should of never have gotten it in first place you were not up for the admin position nor' were you capable of being a good admin
What? Me? I was never an admin.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Needsomemore on January 27, 2013, 09:38:15 pm
13 pages in and everyone already derailed from the original post .......
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 09:38:55 pm
Please, some people need to refocus. There have been plenty of blunders by the devs/admins. I dont hate them, in fact i really try to support them(you can lol) Diplex has donated a fuck ton of money to BCoF and he is in this thread(sorry if i am speaking for you Diplex or i am in the wrong, feel free to state that if so) agreeing with Hekko.

Most players here loved MM, and are bitterly dissapointed with multiple things, how the game turned, how the community turned, and how the Devs and admins have turned.

This isn't just some revolution, and Hekko is just as aware as anyone that this isn't a "revolution", there is no "winning" of a revolution, i believe it was more to highlight that there are alot of unhappy people, and that things should be adressed sooner rather than later. No longer ignored.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Affjoris on January 27, 2013, 09:39:10 pm
I honestly am only waiting for some sort of excuse of the FSE team. I don't want their head on a plate, nor do i want a completely new admin team.

The only thing i desire from this whole drama is a message from vince/olafson/whoever is going to represent FSE which is saying:

Sorry for the mess we created, we made some mistakes. It all was a terrible misunderstanding from our side, and a bit of your side as well. We hereby declare that Daniel Craig and all those others who where muted/banned will be unbanned, and that we will do our very best to avoid mistakes in the future. We hope you forgive us.

That's all i freaking want. I need no new admin team, i just need a fair way to decide who is going to be one. If windbusche where to become an admin i would be fine with that, he has been in this community long enough and most people know him. They may not agree with his point of view, but at least he has ment something for the community in those months/years he has been involved in it. Everyone here has "enemies" in this community, be it because of personal issues or trough regiments disliking each other.

Also i would like to see a bit less involvement from the FSE with the community,  i am totally fine with all the other community managers. Its just because if they stay this involved in this community, it wont be long until a similar problem as this will pop up again. Just stepping down a notch, and just post in treads, help people with technical issues, would only benefit the community imo.

Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 09:39:20 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.
Good, you were never fit for an admin position.
Bit harsh?
Maybe, but nobody can deny it.
You should of never have gotten it in first place you were not up for the admin position nor' were you capable of being a good admin
What? Me? I was never an admin.
Not you nipple i respect you i was talking about crunch.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: MaHuD on January 27, 2013, 09:40:01 pm
I think it is clear that though we have different ideas and opinions, the majority of people here seem to agree things are done unproffesionally and should be changed.

Now, we should look to ourselves to create said change. Things indeed balanced - lets wait for an official FSE reply.
FSE is trying to wait for us to wait quitly for a reply, and then not reply and let it die.  ::)

Keep the fires stoked until Vince comes.
Then you can wait for a long time as Vince should be programming, it is the job of the Community Managers to respond and not Vincenzo.
Though I also recall that people should message the CM and not post threads all over the place. :)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:40:17 pm
Ugh. This community is in shambles. I'm going to demand you all stop and think about this. To do so, I will provide you all with the ingredients to do so.

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.phlmetropolis.com%2FCats.jpg&hash=3db03fe13f517f96b9642c9f0a2165776cc6020d)
[close]
Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.gawkerassets.com%2Fassets%2Fimages%2F9%2F2010%2F06%2Fmentats.jpg&hash=08d11f151c3a726d9ad49b4a85c50d73c8c2cbcc)
[close]
Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.wisegeek.com%2Fhuman-brain.jpg&hash=e9f8fde487a72f83d878238b7e5c6070d60ad1f9)
[close]

 Now that you're all greased up for education, let's reflect back on what I've said previously. I'm not biased, and what I said is probably the least biased thing here. So start reading.

Spoiler
Alright, look. So many people are here, so many are involved. Whether or not everyone here likes each other, doesn't even matter.

 The fact is: the community is upset. Labeling them as douchebags for it is wrong. However, the fact that the developers do put a lot of work into the game specifically for the community, is just as true.

 We can argue, and argue, and argue. I've done it so many times in the past in this bloody community. This community has predators, preys, parasites, producers... but a lot more predators and parasites than there should be. Let's stop trying to suck each others blood and just work on fixing the actual problem.

 From what I've gathered, the community is mad about a lot of things. I haven't had a severe problem with it, until today I had no problem with it at all, but there are honestly plenty of genuine problems here. Locking this thread isn't going to do the mods/admins any good, and making this a bigger flame than it already is will just put the community into a bigger hole with the mods/admins.

 I'd recommend peaceful conclusions. Perhaps the community can take the time out of a day to sit down with the current admins, developers, etc., and figure out the simplest way things can be solved. Not to argue, but to cooperate. This doesn't need to turn into an internet war.

 May I suggest starting with things that would improve us all as a community as a whole, members, mods, and all; current admin selection/selecting a better fit group of admins; repealing/altering the Sports Jersey/Regiment Name retiring nonsense; determining a better selection of testers for betas rather than "best buddies" and "famous advertisers". Expanding on that last one, playtesters should be selected for their knowledge of what their doing, not so they can experience the game first because they're liked by the developers.

 I could go on and on and on with this, but that would contradict myself. We need to quickly find something to fix these messes, each in a well-looked-at manner. Take my recommendations, or not, but dare I say someone needs to take action--because no one currently is.
No no, now this isn't even right. Guys, calm down, and try to resolve this. This is seriously turning into the most retarded thing ever (and I use retarded with the definition provided in your average dictionary): an internet war. Look better upon yourselves, all you, loyalists and rebels alike, for I have no intent on picking either side, because both are so flawed and so biased beyond disrepair. For this reason, I declare myself a free, separate state of neutralist, that I wish for this to all be mutually appeased, in that I've had enough, and I'm sure there are several others who agree with me, with half the balls I do to declare it. That said, don't pick sides. Just make things better.
[close]

 Please, community, this game and the 1% of its community that I actually enjoy saved me from my depression and anxiety. Don't let it come back, as a personal request from me to you all. No one truly wants heads on spikes, no one truly wants a war... so please, stop this nonsense, and change your diapers.
I believe the admins are only stoking the fire by not replying. Instead of taking your advice  ::)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Death by EMP on January 27, 2013, 09:41:43 pm
Akira, I don't even know you, but at least I will be making some people in this community happy with my choice.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hadhod on January 27, 2013, 09:41:51 pm
Please, some people need to refocus. There have been plenty of blunders by the devs/admins. I dont hate them, in fact i really try to support them(you can lol) Diplex has donated a fuck ton of money to BCoF and he is in this thread(sorry if i am speaking for you Diplex or i am in the wrong, feel free to state that if so) agreeing with Hekko.

Most players here loved MM, and are bitterly dissapointed with multiple things, how the game turned, how the community turned, and how the Devs and admins have turned.

This isn't just some revolution, and Hekko is just as aware as anyone that this isn't a "revolution", there is no "winning" of a revolution, i believe it was more to highlight that there are alot of unhappy people, and that things should be adressed sooner rather than later. No longer ignored.

For now it is just a big complaint but there are no reasonable solutions made. You (not you Vorlen specific but the most people in here) are just telling the FSE that they are shit. Don't forget they made this game.

Btw: This is only my personal opinion and I do not speak for the FSE team or any other official admins.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: red.h on January 27, 2013, 09:41:54 pm
I honestly am only waiting for some sort of excuse of the FSE team. I don't want their head on a plate, nor do i want a completely new admin team.

The only thing i desire from this whole drama is a message from vince/olafson/whoever is going to represent FSE which is saying:

Sorry for the mess we created, we made some mistakes. It all was a terrible misunderstanding from our side, and a bit of your side as well. We hereby declare that Daniel Craig and all those others who where muted/banned will be unbanned, and that we will do our very best to avoid mistakes in the future. We hope you forgive us.

That's all i freaking want. I need no new admin team, i just need a fair way to decide who is going to be one. If windbusche where to become an admin i would be fine with that, he has been in this community long enough and most people know him. They may not agree with his point of view, but at least he has ment something for the community in those months/years he has been involved in it. Everyone here has "enemies" in this community, be it because of personal issues or trough regiments disliking each other.

Also i would like to see a bit less involvement from the FSE with the community,  i am totally fine with all the other community managers. Its just because if they stay this involved in this community, it wont be long until a similar problem as this will pop up again. Just stepping down a notch, and just post in treads, help people with technical issues, would only benefit the community imo.

>fse mods apologizing

My sides
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 09:42:38 pm
I'm with Audite and Affjoris on this. We want play a fun game, with good admins and serious Devs.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 09:44:11 pm
You are 100% correct, Hekko. It's also amusing how many people in this thread are suddenly agreeing with Hekko when they've been sucking admin dick for ages, playing along with the bullshit, and generally helping this game sink lower than the titanic.

There's no way in hell I'm buying BCOF in state things are now.
You speak words of wisdom.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Chibbi on January 27, 2013, 09:44:21 pm
Please, some people need to refocus. There have been plenty of blunders by the devs/admins. I dont hate them, in fact i really try to support them(you can lol) Diplex has donated a fuck ton of money to BCoF and he is in this thread(sorry if i am speaking for you Diplex or i am in the wrong, feel free to state that if so) agreeing with Hekko.

Most players here loved MM, and are bitterly dissapointed with multiple things, how the game turned, how the community turned, and how the Devs and admins have turned.

This isn't just some revolution, and Hekko is just as aware as anyone that this isn't a "revolution", there is no "winning" of a revolution, i believe it was more to highlight that there are alot of unhappy people, and that things should be adressed sooner rather than later. No longer ignored.

Agreed. This thread is starting to get a real Salem vibe to it aswell. People turning on each other all over the place.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:44:23 pm
I'm with Audite and Affjoris on this. We want play a fun game, with good admins and serious Devs.
Exactly.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: red.h on January 27, 2013, 09:45:01 pm
You are 100% correct, Hekko. It's also amusing how many people in this thread are suddenly agreeing with Hekko when they've been sucking admin dick for ages, playing along with the bullshit, and generally helping this game sink lower than the titanic.

There's no way in hell I'm buying BCOF in state things are now.
You speak words of wisdom.

BCOF was just another way for them to suck your money out with a shitty game. Except this time, it's worse because they're using their own engine.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 27, 2013, 09:45:25 pm
I'm not mad about the game, even though I'm bitterly disappointed about a number of things in NW. My main concern is the that this is meant to be a public forum and people simply get banned or muted for stating their opinion, it just creates a negative feeling.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Chaos on January 27, 2013, 09:45:41 pm
Admins... cmon, you're only making the situation worse by not replying.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Audiate on January 27, 2013, 09:45:46 pm
nor do i want a completely new admin team.

 Upon realizing my misspeak, may I point out, that only the "abusive" admins should critiqued, and furtherly removed from duty, if so required. A community-based selection of administrators would prove well, as the corrupted system of admins-assign-admins and admins-decline-responsible-players-in-contrast-to-the-people-they-personally-like has not been working, according to a lot of people.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 27, 2013, 09:46:15 pm
You are 100% correct, Hekko. It's also amusing how many people in this thread are suddenly agreeing with Hekko when they've been sucking admin dick for ages, playing along with the bullshit, and generally helping this game sink lower than the titanic.

There's no way in hell I'm buying BCOF in state things are now.
You speak words of wisdom.

BCOF was just another way for them to suck your money out with a shitty game. Except this time, it's worse because they're using their own engine.
The unity engine is absolute horseshit. I have zero hopes for it.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Audiate on January 27, 2013, 09:46:29 pm
 *Posting again because this will be buried*

STOP POSTING SO FSE CAN BLOODY THINK!!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 09:46:33 pm
Please, some people need to refocus. There have been plenty of blunders by the devs/admins. I dont hate them, in fact i really try to support them(you can lol) Diplex has donated a fuck ton of money to BCoF and he is in this thread(sorry if i am speaking for you Diplex or i am in the wrong, feel free to state that if so) agreeing with Hekko.

Most players here loved MM, and are bitterly dissapointed with multiple things, how the game turned, how the community turned, and how the Devs and admins have turned.

This isn't just some revolution, and Hekko is just as aware as anyone that this isn't a "revolution", there is no "winning" of a revolution, i believe it was more to highlight that there are alot of unhappy people, and that things should be adressed sooner rather than later. No longer ignored.

For now it is just a big complaint but there are no reasonable solutions made. You (not you Vorlen specific but the most people in here) are just telling the FSE that they are shit. Don't forget they made this game.

Btw: This is only my personal opinion and I do not speak for the FSE team or any other official admins.

Indeed( though i havent actually posted my agreement or disagreement :D yet ) But it's highlighted that alot of people are unhappy. Most of what Hekkop posted is well articulated and truthful, many people feel they dont need to add muh more to what the master diplomat himself wrote. And to be fair, alot of people aren't as calm and diplomatic as Hekko, it's for the best that people don't start listing every single issue that bothers them, community or admin based, as that will devolve the thread into thousands of posts from which a resolution is impossible.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 27, 2013, 09:47:25 pm
Hey Crunch, look right below your forum name. Without the community, BCoF would fail.

BCoF is going to fail, its going to have shitty melee and FSE can't make their own engine for shit

What the hell are you talking about?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 09:47:28 pm
Admins... cmon, you're only making the situation worse by not replying.
That's probably why this is still happening. Please Vince, let's sit down and talk. Listen to what Audiate said, have a civil discussion, discuss the issues with admins, retired regimental numbers, over regulation etc. PLease, for the sake of the team and the community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Audiate on January 27, 2013, 09:48:07 pm
 And I quote...

STOP POSTING SO FSE CAN BLOODY THINK!!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: GoldenEagle on January 27, 2013, 09:48:21 pm
I posted something similar to Hekko's a few months back (Not as long and serious post tbh and it wasn't my own post) and I told people that they were brown nosing the admins, guess what people did? They just bashed on me and disliked the whole idea of critisizing the Admins, but now everyone agrees with Hekko (Not that its bad, but it just makes me wonder)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Dasvi2018 on January 27, 2013, 09:48:38 pm
Let me do a little flashback

September 2012 the 1.06 patch was releashed and there was a LOT of bicker for the melee. Some quit the game because of it. Some carried the bitching from the game to the forums. 4 months later this arguement was done but with a lot of collateral damage. The game lost 10% of the community ( a rough estimate ). Now this is repeated but this time it effects the high-rankers. Regiment leaders, Admins and once again the devs. And issues are now more personal. What do we do?

ACT AS A COMMUNITY NOT AS INDUVIDUALS

Everyone has the right to object the decisions of the devs but it must be done in a civilised, complete and GLOBAL way.

Dasvi2018

And stop posting so FSE can respond.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Ralph on January 27, 2013, 09:48:52 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFm_ru7cruI

Official song.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 09:48:55 pm
And I quote...

STOP POSTING SO FSE CAN BLOODY THINK!!
How about you shut up and let us give our points.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hadhod on January 27, 2013, 09:49:25 pm
Please, some people need to refocus. There have been plenty of blunders by the devs/admins. I dont hate them, in fact i really try to support them(you can lol) Diplex has donated a fuck ton of money to BCoF and he is in this thread(sorry if i am speaking for you Diplex or i am in the wrong, feel free to state that if so) agreeing with Hekko.

Most players here loved MM, and are bitterly dissapointed with multiple things, how the game turned, how the community turned, and how the Devs and admins have turned.

This isn't just some revolution, and Hekko is just as aware as anyone that this isn't a "revolution", there is no "winning" of a revolution, i believe it was more to highlight that there are alot of unhappy people, and that things should be adressed sooner rather than later. No longer ignored.

For now it is just a big complaint but there are no reasonable solutions made. You (not you Vorlen specific but the most people in here) are just telling the FSE that they are shit. Don't forget they made this game.

Btw: This is only my personal opinion and I do not speak for the FSE team or any other official admins.

Indeed( though i havent actually posted my agreement or disagreement :D yet ) But it's highlighted that alot of people are unhappy. Most of what Hekkop posted is well articulated and truthful, many people feel they dont need to add muh more to what the master diplomat himself wrote. And to be fair, alot of people aren't as calm and diplomatic as Hekko, it's for the best that people don't start listing every single issue that bothers them, community or admin based, as that will devolve the thread into thousands of posts from which a resolution is impossible.

I think you didnt get my point (maybe because I formulated it a bit shitty :P). Why dont start people to make solutions rather than bringing up the shitstorm that is currently going on here. If people are mad with the FSE than that is their thing but if you want things to change suggest something.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 27, 2013, 09:49:49 pm
I posted something similar to Hekko's a few months back (Not as long and serious post tbh and it wasn't my own post) and I told people that they were brown nosing the admins, guess what people did? They just bashed on me and disliked the whole idea of critisizing the Admins, but now everyone agrees with Hekko (Not that its bad, but it just makes me wonder)
Exactly what I was saying. Momentum works wonders. I could name many, many people in this thread who, just days back had their throats so full of admin semen that they could hardly breath, but as soon as they saw how many people were agreeing with Hekko, they started to jump on the bandwagon.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: 2oothBrush on January 27, 2013, 09:49:57 pm
Well put i have to agree with you finally someone put the score Straight 
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Bashy on January 27, 2013, 09:50:01 pm
And I quote...

STOP POSTING SO FSE CAN BLOODY THINK!!

They've had enough time to think, the time has come for the revolution.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Audiate on January 27, 2013, 09:50:46 pm
How about you shut up and let us give our points.

 I feel plenty of opinions have been given, and it's getting us absolutely no where. This is everything but a civil war, for the succession that it is.

 Keep this problem of secondary succession, we shouldn't have to start completely over.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 09:51:11 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFm_ru7cruI

Official song.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrkwgTBrW78[/youtube]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Millander on January 27, 2013, 09:52:15 pm
Summarizes allot of this thread

red62: vince roast
red62: https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=2645.195
[32ndRD]  Millander: juast a bunch of forum drama
[32ndRD]  Millander: people taking the forums way to serious
[32ndRD]  Millander: threads like this are doing more to hurt the community than help it.
red62: its fun do
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 27, 2013, 09:52:35 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFm_ru7cruI

Official song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrkwgTBrW78
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K1q9Ntcr5g[/youtube]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: USE4life on January 27, 2013, 09:53:17 pm
#UnbanDan
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blade on January 27, 2013, 09:53:58 pm
#UnbanDan

I agree, we should unban the poor souls. Hatake, Biggun, Daniel and Cherry.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hutker on January 27, 2013, 09:54:01 pm
Agreed with hekko.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 27, 2013, 09:55:05 pm
#UnbanDan
Dan 2013!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: GrantyPooh on January 27, 2013, 09:55:14 pm
#UnbanDan

Also #unbanBiggun  #unbanCraig
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: LittleGuy on January 27, 2013, 09:55:18 pm
I am currently a head admin for the US1 side of things, and I take full responsibility for any actions both admissible and inadmissible by my admin team. I have even gone so far as to personally apologize to those who have been wrongly banned, or had admin powers misused on them. Yes, we do have new admins, and yes our current method of selecting admin may seem like a popularity contest as far as the actual process goes. It goes something like this.

1. We post a thread asking for people to apply for an admin position.

2. All of the admin candidates are then added to a list and mailed to every admin on the team.

3. The admins list the candidates in to three different groups labeled "I think this person would make a good admin" "I have had issue with this person in the past and do not feel they would make a good admin, please explain if you put them here." and "Who the heck is this?"

We do this so that we can gather information on the persons past. Any rule breaking, trolling, bans etc.. This is also used to ensure that the admin team works well together, and we try to avoid any infighting as that just causes problems.

4. We tally up all the Yes/Nos each person got and drop the people will shady pasts, bans for breaking certain rules, and add the group of people that the current admin team agrees will work best.

5. We watch, and remove any admins we feel are misusing their powers even after warnings, and rectify any wrongdoing with the intent on making those admins better as they learn to handle their new position of hatred and disdain amongst the  community.

So no, our process is not perfect, and there is most certainly a period of training that comes with adding a batch of new admins. There are a few things in this game that do not help though. The inclusion of fluff admin guns and weapons that normal players don't get a chance to use does not help us. The draw of these new "toys" is simply too much for a new admin sometimes. And the only way to punish people and remove them from the game is either an hour long or a perma ban. These issues will hopefully be fixed in BCoF.

As far as my admin team's actions go. Yes, there have been mistakes, and most have been rectified. If Crunch does end up resigning, I will be sad to see him go. He above all others with the exception of myself and Deo who have to decide when someone actually gets unbanned has faced more hate and trolling than anyone else on the US1 team and has handled it far better than most would. He has become a great admin since he was added to the roster, and is both fair and logical in his decisions when it comes to banning and punishment. He even gives warnings when he's not supposed to. -_-

At any rate, as I said before. I take full responsibility for all actions taken by my team.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 27, 2013, 09:55:26 pm
#UnbanDan

I agree, we should unban the poor souls. Hatake, Biggun, Daniel and Cherry.
Don't forget Craig
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Jacob on January 27, 2013, 09:56:06 pm
Summarizes allot of this thread

red62: vince roast
red62: https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=2645.195
[32ndRD]  Millander: juast a bunch of forum drama
[32ndRD]  Millander: people taking the forums way to serious
[32ndRD]  Millander: threads like this are doing more to hurt the community than help it.
red62: its fun do

Completely agree with you Millander, making a thread like this is only going to be worse for the community, it has gone from pointing out flaws in a civil manner, to picking as many holes as you can because something as little as retiring the 51st number has rubbed you up the wrong way or something.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: 2oothBrush on January 27, 2013, 09:56:53 pm
#UnbanDan
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 09:57:06 pm
I am currently a head admin for the US1 side of things, and I take full responsibility for any actions both admissible and inadmissible by my admin team. I have even gone so far as to personally apologize to those who have been wrongly banned, or had admin powers misused on them. Yes, we do have new admins, and yes our current method of selecting admin may seem like a popularity contest as far as the actual process goes. It goes something like this.

1. We post a thread asking for people to apply for an admin position.

2. All of the admin candidates are then added to a list and mailed to every admin on the team.

3. The admins list the candidates in to three different groups labeled "I think this person would make a good admin" "I have had issue with this person in the past and do not feel they would make a good admin, please explain if you put them here." and "Who the heck is this?"

We do this so that we can gather information on the persons past. Any rule breaking, trolling, bans etc.. This is also used to ensure that the admin team works well together, and we try to avoid any infighting as that just causes problems.

4. We tally up all the Yes/Nos each person got and drop the people will shady pasts, bans for breaking certain rules, and add the group of people that the current admin team agrees will work best.

5. We watch, and remove any admins we feel are misusing their powers even after warnings, and rectify any wrongdoing with the intent on making those admins better as they learn to handle their new position of hatred and disdain amongst the  community.

So no, our process is not perfect, and there is most certainly a period of training that comes with adding a batch of new admins. There are a few things in this game that do not help though. The inclusion of fluff admin guns and weapons that normal players don't get a chance to use does not help us. The draw of these new "toys" is simply too much for a new admin sometimes. And the only way to punish people and remove them from the game is either an hour long or a perma ban. These issues will hopefully be fixed in BCoF.

As far as my admin team's actions go. Yes, there have been mistakes, and most have been rectified. If Crunch does end up resigning, I will be sad to see him go. He above all others with the exception of myself and Deo who have to decide when someone actually gets unbanned has faced more hate and trolling than anyone else on the US1 team and has handled it far better than most would. He has become a great admin since he was added to the roster, and is both fair and logical in his decisions when it comes to banning and punishment. He even gives warnings when he's not supposed to. -_-

At any rate, as I said before. I take full responsibility for all actions taken by my team.
What about the amount of people calling each other names and shit on US 1? saying eachother are bad at this and that spamming it 24/7 and i dont want to say names.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Evanovic on January 27, 2013, 09:57:42 pm
Completely agree with you Millander, making a thread like this is only going to be worse for the community, it has gone from pointing out flaws in a civil manner, to picking as many holes as you can because something as little as retiring the 51st number has rubbed you up the wrong way or something.

It looks to me more like anger and resentment. If they were happy with the way things were run it wouldn't be satisfying to complain. The 51st number seems more like a trigger than a cause to me.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Dasvi2018 on January 27, 2013, 09:58:33 pm
Completely agree with you Millander, making a thread like this is only going to be worse for the community, it has gone from pointing out flaws in a civil manner, to picking as many holes as you can because something as little as retiring the 51st number has rubbed you up the wrong way or something.

It looks to me more like anger and resentment. If they were happy with the way things were run it wouldn't be satisfying to complain. The 51st number seems more like a trigger than a cause to me.

The trigger was 1.06 melee, this is the "click"
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 27, 2013, 09:58:48 pm
Completely agree with you Millander, making a thread like this is only going to be worse for the community, it has gone from pointing out flaws in a civil manner, to picking as many holes as you can because something as little as retiring the 51st number has rubbed you up the wrong way or something.

It looks to me more like anger and resentment. If they were happy with the way things were run it wouldn't be satisfying to complain. The 51st number seems more like a trigger than a cause to me.

The 51st number? Or the 51st in-game regiment which we paid for?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Althalus on January 27, 2013, 09:59:02 pm
You guys do all realize that we can't gain control of the public servers or forums - no matter how long this debate goes on for - don't you?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: LittleGuy on January 27, 2013, 09:59:21 pm

What about the amount of people calling each other names and shit on US 1? saying eachother are bad at this and that spamming it 24/7 and i dont want to say names.
[/quote]

Calling someone bad does not concern me as long as there is no racist slur someone within the message. Calling people names is frowned upon, but not ban worthy unless it is a threat RL, and/or a racist slur.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 09:59:26 pm
I am currently a head admin for the US1 side of things, and I take full responsibility for any actions both admissible and inadmissible by my admin team. I have even gone so far as to personally apologize to those who have been wrongly banned, or had admin powers misused on them. Yes, we do have new admins, and yes our current method of selecting admin may seem like a popularity contest as far as the actual process goes. It goes something like this.

1. We post a thread asking for people to apply for an admin position.

2. All of the admin candidates are then added to a list and mailed to every admin on the team.

3. The admins list the candidates in to three different groups labeled "I think this person would make a good admin" "I have had issue with this person in the past and do not feel they would make a good admin, please explain if you put them here." and "Who the heck is this?"

We do this so that we can gather information on the persons past. Any rule breaking, trolling, bans etc.. This is also used to ensure that the admin team works well together, and we try to avoid any infighting as that just causes problems.

4. We tally up all the Yes/Nos each person got and drop the people will shady pasts, bans for breaking certain rules, and add the group of people that the current admin team agrees will work best.

5. We watch, and remove any admins we feel are misusing their powers even after warnings, and rectify any wrongdoing with the intent on making those admins better as they learn to handle their new position of hatred and disdain amongst the  community.

So no, our process is not perfect, and there is most certainly a period of training that comes with adding a batch of new admins. There are a few things in this game that do not help though. The inclusion of fluff admin guns and weapons that normal players don't get a chance to use does not help us. The draw of these new "toys" is simply too much for a new admin sometimes. And the only way to punish people and remove them from the game is either an hour long or a perma ban. These issues will hopefully be fixed in BCoF.

As far as my admin team's actions go. Yes, there have been mistakes, and most have been rectified. If Crunch does end up resigning, I will be sad to see him go. He above all others with the exception of myself and Deo who have to decide when someone actually gets unbanned has faced more hate and trolling than anyone else on the US1 team and has handled it far better than most would. He has become a great admin since he was added to the roster, and is both fair and logical in his decisions when it comes to banning and punishment. He even gives warnings when he's not supposed to. -_-

At any rate, as I said before. I take full responsibility for all actions taken by my team.

Unless you are a previous 92nd member, i dont know you personally. However, i (on behalf of all who wish me to) would like to say that this isn't a witch hunt, those who are iunnocent, respectfull and caring of the communities opinions, shouldnt be put in a position that they feel the need to apologize, again, Hekko didn't want this to be a witch hunt. If americans think you are at fault then that's another issue :P But, at least in my opinion, this is an issue with the devs rather than a few rogue admins who fuck shit up.

Maybe i'm wrong, in which case, as always, my disclaimer is just ignore me and say im a cock.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Jacob on January 27, 2013, 09:59:31 pm
Completely agree with you Millander, making a thread like this is only going to be worse for the community, it has gone from pointing out flaws in a civil manner, to picking as many holes as you can because something as little as retiring the 51st number has rubbed you up the wrong way or something.

It looks to me more like anger and resentment. If they were happy with the way things were run it wouldn't be satisfying to complain. The 51st number seems more like a trigger than a cause to me.

The 51st number? Or the 51st in-game regiment which we paid for?

Number that a regiment was called, not the in game class
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: ThatSillyLucas on January 27, 2013, 10:00:08 pm
Please dont involve the french anthem to this topic its out of the context :p
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tiberius Decimus Maximus on January 27, 2013, 10:00:25 pm
I rarely get involved in this community, except for a few isolated jaunts into Mount and Blade: Napoleonic Wars, but recent events have caught my attention here. And while I get why there is some internal conflict within the "revolutionaries", as it were, I think it is valuable to take a step back and marvel at this:

"The main administrator of the forum actually made his girlfriend an administrator."

For those who defend them on behalf of the fact that they made the game, well, you would have been right a couple years ago when the group was a non-commercial modding group. However, they are now a fully independent, commercial game development studio, and they should put on their big boy britches, mature to criticism, and act like it.

That's my two cents. I'll be generous to myself and call it reason. 'Tis easy to get caught up in all this, so I thought I'd share my thoughts, is all. Hopefully I will be allowed to continue doing so in the days ahead. Thank you for your consideration.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Dasvi2018 on January 27, 2013, 10:00:45 pm
You guys do all realize that we can't gain control of the public servers or forums - no matter how long this debate goes on for - don't you?

I do, what i want is equal respect for all. I don't want any praise or position I just want a civil community (This is the oath  :D)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Connzcdf on January 27, 2013, 10:01:10 pm
Remember those souls we have lost, for questioning the hierarchy.
#biggun
#dan
#jezza
#craig
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 10:03:29 pm
You guys do all realize that we can't gain control of the public servers or forums - no matter how long this debate goes on for - don't you?

I think alot of the 'vets' don't care about this, sorry. Many regiments have the ability to host servers(infact the 200 man battle servers ruin battle, too big, too messy, imo), and probably 60%+ of this thread dont play battle anymore since NW.

Groupfighting( Hekko's ideal, as the one who formulates the EU cup and GF tournies) has become the preffered place to play for many players. All that is is another negative that FSE does little to foster this community it says it supports, when it does nothing to help towards the competitve multiplayer spirit of a multiplayer focused DLC it made.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blade on January 27, 2013, 10:04:10 pm
Remember those souls we have lost, for questioning the hierarchy.
#biggun
#dan
#jezza
#craig


Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.memegenerator.net%2Finstances%2F400x%2F33947446.jpg&hash=2990b9131a0d07b563f6eea715450489b6dec065)
[close]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Chosen1 on January 27, 2013, 10:04:29 pm
Spoiler
(https://i.imgur.com/slsz9n4.png)
[close]
Popular thread.

Anyways, I disagree. Just don't get into trouble, don't start drama and just worry about yourself and you'll be fine.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: MaHuD on January 27, 2013, 10:05:17 pm
Remember those souls we have lost, for questioning the hierarchy.
#biggun
#dan
#jezza
#craig
Hate to bring it to you lad, but Dan was hardly trying to do anything he believed in. Unless he believes in trolling of course.

If you look at Hekko's OP, you will surely  notice the grand difference between approuches and also between what kind of end result both people would like to see.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: GrantyPooh on January 27, 2013, 10:05:43 pm
Remember those souls we have lost, for questioning the hierarchy.
#biggun
#dan
#jezza
#craig
and #cherry
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Jacob on January 27, 2013, 10:05:53 pm
For all of you who sent me abusive steam messages, I got at least 6, please stop, just because I do not agree with Hekko.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hadhod on January 27, 2013, 10:06:36 pm
People stop calling the revolution! Bring suggestions  ;)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 27, 2013, 10:06:57 pm
I am currently a head admin for the US1 side of things, and I take full responsibility for any actions both admissible and inadmissible by my admin team. I have even gone so far as to personally apologize to those who have been wrongly banned, or had admin powers misused on them. Yes, we do have new admins, and yes our current method of selecting admin may seem like a popularity contest as far as the actual process goes. It goes something like this.

1. We post a thread asking for people to apply for an admin position.

2. All of the admin candidates are then added to a list and mailed to every admin on the team.

3. The admins list the candidates in to three different groups labeled "I think this person would make a good admin" "I have had issue with this person in the past and do not feel they would make a good admin, please explain if you put them here." and "Who the heck is this?"

We do this so that we can gather information on the persons past. Any rule breaking, trolling, bans etc.. This is also used to ensure that the admin team works well together, and we try to avoid any infighting as that just causes problems.

4. We tally up all the Yes/Nos each person got and drop the people will shady pasts, bans for breaking certain rules, and add the group of people that the current admin team agrees will work best.

5. We watch, and remove any admins we feel are misusing their powers even after warnings, and rectify any wrongdoing with the intent on making those admins better as they learn to handle their new position of hatred and disdain amongst the  community.

So no, our process is not perfect, and there is most certainly a period of training that comes with adding a batch of new admins. There are a few things in this game that do not help though. The inclusion of fluff admin guns and weapons that normal players don't get a chance to use does not help us. The draw of these new "toys" is simply too much for a new admin sometimes. And the only way to punish people and remove them from the game is either an hour long or a perma ban. These issues will hopefully be fixed in BCoF.

As far as my admin team's actions go. Yes, there have been mistakes, and most have been rectified. If Crunch does end up resigning, I will be sad to see him go. He above all others with the exception of myself and Deo who have to decide when someone actually gets unbanned has faced more hate and trolling than anyone else on the US1 team and has handled it far better than most would. He has become a great admin since he was added to the roster, and is both fair and logical in his decisions when it comes to banning and punishment. He even gives warnings when he's not supposed to. -_-

At any rate, as I said before. I take full responsibility for all actions taken by my team.

Unless you are a previous 92nd member, i dont know you personally. However, i (on behalf of all who wish me to) would like to say that this isn't a witch hunt, those who are iunnocent, respectfull and caring of the communities opinions, shouldnt be put in a position that they feel the need to apologize, again, Hekko didn't want this to be a witch hunt. If americans think you are at fault then that's another issue :P But, at least in my opinion, this is an issue with the devs rather than a few rogue admins who fuck shit up.

Maybe i'm wrong, in which case, as always, my disclaimer is just ignore me and say im a cock.

"Who the heck is this?" "this guy will make a good admin" "I have had issues"?

You mean..

"Pub/never heard of" "well-known" "troll"

And it's almost always the well-knowns, I have troubles believing the yes and no tallies.  ::)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 10:07:31 pm
For all of you who sent me abusive steam messages, I got at least 6, please stop, just because I do not agree with Hekko.
I've gotten hate mail for supporting reforms.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 27, 2013, 10:07:40 pm
People stop calling the revolution! Bring suggestions  ;)
We are suggesting things. A revolution is major changes and that is what we're suggesting. Try and think outside of the box.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: USE4life on January 27, 2013, 10:07:55 pm
I think we need a list of demands
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Comrade Temuzu on January 27, 2013, 10:08:34 pm
I think the important question here is, did Vince get laid after promoting his girlfriend?

All else is irrelevant.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 27, 2013, 10:08:45 pm
I think we need a list of demands
  • Kitty removed from her Administrator position
  • The rights to the name of the 51st given to the one who asks for it
  • An official apology from FSE
  • A more universal say in the appointment of administrators (give us a say)
  • Daniel Craig ect un banned from the forums
  • More specific forum rules with new moderators
I whole heatedly agree.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Flash on January 27, 2013, 10:08:51 pm
I'm a bit late to the party but I'm 100% with Hekko. And when someone as experienced and respected in the community as Hekko makes a thread like this, you'd be completely daft not to take heed.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 10:09:09 pm
People stop calling the revolution! Bring suggestions  ;)
We are suggesting things. A revolution is major changes and that is what we're suggesting. Try and think outside of the box.
VIVA LA REVOLUTION!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 27, 2013, 10:09:15 pm
In this community any attempt at help, is read and immediately pointed out as mediocre  and every little flaw, every little error is handled as if the entire attempt is an utter failure and deserves to live in the gallows. On the forums, every person you meet, there is a 35% chance, or around there - that the person you meet will at one point will get in a argument with you, over the stupidest damn things. Although I think administration of the official servers is not that bad, but for everything else? Fucked up. At the least. I don't have a problem with the administrators, really. I have a problem with this damn community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Affjoris on January 27, 2013, 10:09:21 pm
One last post on behalf of my friend craig:

Quote
The problem is that our criticisms are valid, but we need to state what we want changed. I was community banned for speaking up against the admins
along with daniel and biggun. I don't think that all the FSE team do an incompotent job, for instance I think Hancock does a great job with the bans and unbans
and acts in a professional manner about such things. Here are a few things that I and I hope most of the community want.

- Re-evaluate your management of the community, and how people are watched/moderated/banned.
- Re-consider people who were given admin who may not be up to the task.
- Stop your blatant favourtisim and biased, to uphold the professionalism of FSE as a company.
- Start treating your community like people you want to keep for the sake of your new game
- Give up on your idea of trying to keep the 51st name, honestly it's offensive to other regiments who have contributed just as much.
- Give community managers to completely Neutral memebrs of the community, who wont have as little bias as possible.
- The developers apologise for how they have been running the community recently, and myself, Daniel, Biggun, Cherry and others are unbanned.

Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Ste on January 27, 2013, 10:09:28 pm
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1250.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh531%2Fstedarcy12%2FREVOLUTION_zpse815b66a.png&hash=1a57589e84dccaf4c8c669f62f8ce950ab352314)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 10:09:40 pm
People stop calling the revolution! Bring suggestions  ;)

To make suggestions people would have to know Vince's stance. They don't.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: USE4life on January 27, 2013, 10:10:58 pm
20:49 - FSE_Vincenzo: we will rectify the bullshit
20:50 - [91st] USE4life: In who's favor?
20:50 - [91st] USE4life: Yours or theirs?
20:50 - FSE_Vincenzo: theirs

Apology to Vince if he does not want this to be posted but I think  it may stem the flames
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 10:11:30 pm
I think we need a list of demands
  • Kitty removed from her Administrator position
  • The rights to the name of the 51st given to the one who asks for it
  • An official apology from FSE
  • A more universal say in the appointment of administrators (give us a say)
  • Daniel Craig ect un banned from the forums
  • More specific forum rules with new moderators
Adding my piece, nice job on being constructive though too  ;)
#Remove the "no popcorn gifs and quoting offensive material" rule (a little drama doesn't hurt, it is the internet after all)
#Reduce crackdown (Watches instead of mutes and bans)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 10:11:43 pm
One last post on behalf of my friend craig:

Quote
The problem is that our criticisms are valid, but we need to state what we want changed. I was community banned for speaking up against the admins
along with daniel and biggun. I don't think that all the FSE team do an incompotent job, for instance I think Hancock does a great job with the bans and unbans
and acts in a professional manner about such things. Here are a few things that I and I hope most of the community want.

- Re-evaluate your management of the community, and how people are watched/moderated/banned.
- Re-consider people who were given admin who may not be up to the task.
- Stop your blatant favourtisim and biased, to uphold the professionalism of FSE as a company.
- Start treating your community like people you want to keep for the sake of your new game
- Give up on your idea of trying to keep the 51st name, honestly it's offensive to other regiments who have contributed just as much.
- Give community managers to completely Neutral memebrs of the community, who wont have as little bias as possible.
- The developers apologise for how they have been running the community recently, and myself, Daniel, Biggun, Cherry and others are unbanned.

I agree with all said points. And let that be the end of it.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Bashy on January 27, 2013, 10:11:48 pm
I think we need a list of demands
  • Kitty removed from her Administrator position
  • The rights to the name of the 51st given to the one who asks for it
  • An official apology from FSE
  • A more universal say in the appointment of administrators (give us a say)
  • Daniel Craig ect un banned from the forums
  • More specific forum rules with new moderators

Exactly.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 27, 2013, 10:12:27 pm
20:49 - FSE_Vincenzo: we will rectify the bullshit
20:50 - [91st] USE4life: In who's favor?
20:50 - [91st] USE4life: Yours or theirs?
20:50 - FSE_Vincenzo: theirs

Apology to Vince if he does not want this to be posted but I think  it may stem the flames
Burn baby burn, disco inferno!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Refleax on January 27, 2013, 10:12:34 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 10:13:07 pm
I think we need a list of demands
  • Kitty removed from her Administrator position
  • The rights to the name of the 51st given to the one who asks for it
  • An official apology from FSE
  • A more universal say in the appointment of administrators (give us a say)
  • Daniel Craig ect un banned from the forums
  • More specific forum rules with new moderators
Adding my piece, nice job on being constructive though too  ;)
#Remove the "no popcorn gifs and quoting offensive material" rule (a little drama doesn't hurt, it is the internet after all)
#Reduce crackdown (Watches instead of mutes and bans)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Ronan6793 on January 27, 2013, 10:13:19 pm
Am I the only one who doesn't care about the Damn regiments, I care more about the admins and think we should Help FSE to create a new way of Choosing admins, My idea is that they should Open a thread to the community asking their opinion on the person Applying and they would then decide Yes or no, Also I think we should Call a vote on the current admins and see the Community's opinion on whether or not they should Keep their Administrative Powers. Finally there should be a Place on the Forums where people Can complain about specific admins if they feel they have been Mistreated. 
 
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: ThatSillyLucas on January 27, 2013, 10:13:23 pm
I think we need a list of demands
  • Kitty removed from her Administrator position
  • The rights to the name of the 51st given to the one who asks for it
  • An official apology from FSE
  • A more universal say in the appointment of administrators (give us a say)
  • Daniel Craig ect un banned from the forums
  • More specific forum rules with new moderators

I wish that every suggestions are looked at.I remember a phrase from Vince was 'We did it this way because our game became more popular so we did it for newcomers or beginners to make it more easy or something like that' I don't support that, because that means everyone who followed Vince to NW from MM got suddenly forgotten.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: TORN on January 27, 2013, 10:13:31 pm
I am currently a head admin for the US1 side of things, and I take full responsibility for any actions both admissible and inadmissible by my admin team. I have even gone so far as to personally apologize to those who have been wrongly banned, or had admin powers misused on them. Yes, we do have new admins, and yes our current method of selecting admin may seem like a popularity contest as far as the actual process goes. It goes something like this.

1. We post a thread asking for people to apply for an admin position.

2. All of the admin candidates are then added to a list and mailed to every admin on the team.

3. The admins list the candidates in to three different groups labeled "I think this person would make a good admin" "I have had issue with this person in the past and do not feel they would make a good admin, please explain if you put them here." and "Who the heck is this?"

We do this so that we can gather information on the persons past. Any rule breaking, trolling, bans etc.. This is also used to ensure that the admin team works well together, and we try to avoid any infighting as that just causes problems.

4. We tally up all the Yes/Nos each person got and drop the people will shady pasts, bans for breaking certain rules, and add the group of people that the current admin team agrees will work best.

5. We watch, and remove any admins we feel are misusing their powers even after warnings, and rectify any wrongdoing with the intent on making those admins better as they learn to handle their new position of hatred and disdain amongst the  community.

So no, our process is not perfect, and there is most certainly a period of training that comes with adding a batch of new admins. There are a few things in this game that do not help though. The inclusion of fluff admin guns and weapons that normal players don't get a chance to use does not help us. The draw of these new "toys" is simply too much for a new admin sometimes. And the only way to punish people and remove them from the game is either an hour long or a perma ban. These issues will hopefully be fixed in BCoF.

As far as my admin team's actions go. Yes, there have been mistakes, and most have been rectified. If Crunch does end up resigning, I will be sad to see him go. He above all others with the exception of myself and Deo who have to decide when someone actually gets unbanned has faced more hate and trolling than anyone else on the US1 team and has handled it far better than most would. He has become a great admin since he was added to the roster, and is both fair and logical in his decisions when it comes to banning and punishment. He even gives warnings when he's not supposed to. -_-

At any rate, as I said before. I take full responsibility for all actions taken by my team.

Unless you are a previous 92nd member, i dont know you personally. However, i (on behalf of all who wish me to) would like to say that this isn't a witch hunt, those who are iunnocent, respectfull and caring of the communities opinions, shouldnt be put in a position that they feel the need to apologize, again, Hekko didn't want this to be a witch hunt. If americans think you are at fault then that's another issue :P But, at least in my opinion, this is an issue with the devs rather than a few rogue admins who fuck shit up.

Maybe i'm wrong, in which case, as always, my disclaimer is just ignore me and say im a cock.

"Who the heck is this?" "this guy will make a good admin" "I have had issues"?

You mean..

"Pub/never heard of" "well-known" "troll"

And it's almost always the well-knowns, I have troubles believing the yes and no tallies.  ::)
Exactly what I wanted to say.
By 'Who the heck is this?!' you support favoratism
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Jack1995_1 on January 27, 2013, 10:13:40 pm
Here's a point. This is mabie 2% to 5% of the community. The rest are happily playing the game, abiding by the server rules and not having to worry about any of these arguments. Unfortunally, as with most cases, the unhappy amount are always the most loudly spoken. They are here to complain, taking for granted a game that has given them hours and hours of enjoyment, and forgetting what the real purpose of a game is. To have fun. From the 300+ hours i have spent on NW, i have never seen any admin abuse or unfair banning. There are two sides to every story.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Mik_ on January 27, 2013, 10:13:53 pm
We want vince not you refleax, your innocent
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Thomaas on January 27, 2013, 10:13:58 pm
I think we need a list of demands
  • Kitty removed from her Administrator position
  • The rights to the name of the 51st given to the one who asks for it
  • An official apology from FSE
  • A more universal say in the appointment of administrators (give us a say)
  • Daniel Craig ect un banned from the forums
  • More specific forum rules with new moderators
Aye
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: TORN on January 27, 2013, 10:15:01 pm
I think we need a list of demands
  • Kitty removed from her Administrator position
  • The rights to the name of the 51st given to the one who asks for it
  • An official apology from FSE
  • A more universal say in the appointment of administrators (give us a say)
  • Daniel Craig ect un banned from the forums
  • More specific forum rules with new moderators
Adding my piece, nice job on being constructive though too  ;)
#Remove the "no popcorn gifs and quoting offensive material" rule (a little drama doesn't hurt, it is the internet after all)
#Reduce crackdown (Watches instead of mutes and bans)
popcorn gifs are rather annoying.
I've made a mistake on doing this. I've learned my lesson.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 27, 2013, 10:16:07 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   ::)

Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Ralph on January 27, 2013, 10:18:28 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   ::)
They should have an interview process that lasts a week or so.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: CHARLES111MAC on January 27, 2013, 10:19:21 pm
So does this mean i will or won't get the name ?

Jk jk jk
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Jacob on January 27, 2013, 10:19:25 pm
For this community representative does someone have to nominate you, or can you put yourself forward? for I am eager to at least be considered for this role, as I think it is something I would be able to do and something I would enjoy doing as well.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2013, 10:20:41 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   ::)
They should have an interview process that lasts a week or so.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 10:21:01 pm
Here's a point. This is mabie 2% to 5% of the community. The rest are happily playing the game, abiding by the server rules and not having to worry about any of these arguments. Unfortunally, as with most cases, the unhappy amount are always the most loudly spoken. They are here to complain, taking for granted a game that has given them hours and hours of enjoyment, and forgetting what the real purpose of a game is. To have fun. From the 300+ hours i have spent on NW, i have never seen any admin abuse or unfair banning. There are two sides to every story.

Then get this 95-98% to post. Most of the poster have a reputation of some kind, and are known.

In other news, Thank you Refleax, I, and numerous others apreciate your respons. Hekko obviously never intended a coup. But the prevailing feeling since NW's release has been one in which the higher ups ignored the little guy. I'm a nobody, i expect to be ignored, I have never tried nor wanted to be a big cheese in the community, it aint my thing. But it's not 'me' being ignored that bothers me. It's when people i respect are.

Anyway, enough backtracking that didn't help. Let's move forward with integrity and a stronger and closer knit community from this all.

(Or im still a cock.... /disclaimer... feel free to agree)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Flash on January 27, 2013, 10:21:27 pm
Personally I would like a review of all forum punishments given out in the past few weeks. For example James Grant was a victim of over-zealous moderation and now multiple regiments and even the Anglo Zulu mod are suffering because he is still unable to post.

#freejamesgrant
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: GoldenEagle on January 27, 2013, 10:22:07 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

HEKKO FOR PRESIDENT
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Comrade Temuzu on January 27, 2013, 10:22:15 pm
If you people are going to be appointing consuls or whatever, make sure that they spell "Vive la Révolution" correctly.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Affjoris on January 27, 2013, 10:22:39 pm
Personally I would like a review of all forum punishments given out in the past few weeks. For example James Grant was a victim of over-zealous moderation and now multiple regiments and even the Anglo Zulu mod are suffering because he is still unable to post.

#freejamesgrant

With him the others who where banned of said reasons. Banning people should be a benifit to the community, not a burden.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vikestad on January 27, 2013, 10:22:44 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   ::)

Would rather have them choosing than having the fate of the forums be in the hands of these so-called revolutionaries
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tiberius Decimus Maximus on January 27, 2013, 10:23:10 pm
For the benefit of the people, I'll compile the list of grievances I find are rational in a simple list, and accompanied proposals on how to fix them. This may seem similar to the OP, but considering people have already strayed a considerable distance in page length from there, this may be helpful and accessible for newcomers, and those involved in the debate to keep their conversations on track. Let me know if there are any addendums you would like me to add, and I'll repost with the updated list if I find the grievance bears merit.

1. The selection process for Administrative Positions on the forums and for the servers is faulty, based too much on popularity, "veterancy" in the community, and favoritism on the part of the existing Administrative and Developer Staff. This brings in administrators who may display symptoms of personal indulgence and corruption, heavy-handedness, and hot-headedness.
-The solution would be a transparent reform of the way Administrators are picked. While they should not be community chosen, community input should be valued and put into legitimate consideration.

2. A continuation on the previous grievance, the appearance of nepotism on behalf of the staff, in particular Vincenzo, is deeply troubling in regards to the legitimacy of a 'professional', commercial company of any kind.
-Removal of administrator rights for those who benefit from nepotism should be immediate, regardless of ability. Corruption on the part of staff members should be seen as unacceptable.

3. The crackdowns on opinions and ideas from the community, including thread locking, mutes, bans permanent and temporary, and post deletion have made the FSE development and administrative staff quite infamous. It degrades its professionalism in the eyes of customers, and brings doubt into their seriousness and ability to carry projects through to completion, as well as satisfy community desires and improvements.
-Unban all those who have been banned solely due to voicing their concerns about the community, the staff, and issues with the game. The development staff should make an effort to show that community presented issues with gameplay, administrative rulings, or ideas for upcoming updates and games are appreciated, most importantly, giving equal attention to all well presented suggestions, with no favoritism in regards to community history or donations.

That is all that came to mind based on my viewing of the thread. Please let me know in a well presented post if there are any more grievances you would like added to the list, and I will duly add them shortly.

*EDIT*

Warning - while you were typing 36 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

...Oof.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Thomaas on January 27, 2013, 10:25:19 pm
Personally I would like a review of all forum punishments given out in the past few weeks. For example James Grant was a victim of over-zealous moderation and now multiple regiments and even the Anglo Zulu mod are suffering because he is still unable to post.

#freejamesgrant

#freejamesgrant   2013!!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 10:25:51 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   ::)

Would rather have them choosing than having the fate of the forums be in the hands of these so-called revolutionaries

You really hate people, dont you?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Cherry#YOLO on January 27, 2013, 10:26:24 pm
#Yolo

(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.kym-cdn.com%2Fphotos%2Fimages%2Foriginal%2F000%2F311%2F924%2F234.jpg&hash=5a5f5827f5f2e79421d40f2b6836396d0e5fa7c5)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blade on January 27, 2013, 10:27:27 pm
We will be happy if you unban Daniel, Craig etc. Who got banned from the forums. It is our demand. The people wants it.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Bashy on January 27, 2013, 10:28:10 pm
Set free those of whom you have entrapped with your corruption!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: red.h on January 27, 2013, 10:28:33 pm
We will be happy if you unban Daniel, Craig etc. Who got banned from the forums. It is our demand. The people wants it.

They ban the people that speak against them
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Death by EMP on January 27, 2013, 10:29:06 pm
For the benefit of the people, I'll compile the list of grievances I find are rational in a simple list, and accompanied proposals on how to fix them. This may seem similar to the OP, but considering people have already strayed a considerable distance in page length from there, this may be helpful and accessible for newcomers, and those involved in the debate to keep their conversations on track. Let me know if there are any addendums you would like me to add, and I'll repost with the updated list if I find the grievance bears merit.

1. The selection process for Administrative Positions on the forums and for the servers is faulty, based too much on popularity, "veterancy" in the community, and favoritism on the part of the existing Administrative and Developer Staff. This brings in administrators who may display symptoms of personal indulgence and corruption, heavy-handedness, and hot-headedness.
-The solution would be a transparent reform of the way Administrators are picked. While they should not be community chosen, community input should be valued and put into legitimate consideration.

2. A continuation on the previous grievance, the appearance of nepotism on behalf of the staff, in particular Vincenzo, is deeply troubling in regards to the legitimacy of a 'professional', commercial company of any kind.
-Removal of administrator rights for those who benefit from nepotism should be immediate, regardless of ability. Corruption on the part of staff members should be seen as unacceptable.

3. The crackdowns on opinions and ideas from the community, including thread locking, mutes, bans permanent and temporary, and post deletion have made the FSE development and administrative staff quite infamous. It degrades its professionalism in the eyes of customers, and brings doubt into their seriousness and ability to carry projects through to completion, as well as satisfy community desires and improvements.
-Unban all those who have been banned solely due to voicing their concerns about the community, the staff, and issues with the game. The development staff should make an effort to show that community presented issues with gameplay, administrative rulings, or ideas for upcoming updates and games are appreciated, most importantly, giving equal attention to all well presented suggestions, with no favoritism in regards to community history or donations.

That is all that came to mind based on my viewing of the thread. Please let me know in a well presented post if there are any more grievances you would like added to the list, and I will duly add them shortly.

*EDIT*

Warning - while you were typing 36 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

...Oof.
I don't agree with your first bullet. I was pretty much a "nobody in a videogame" which as I said makes no sense, but I will just be speaking using your thinking process. Even without being well known, not in a big regiment and all this other stuff people think influence the admin choosings, I was still chosen and warmly welcomed into the team. You guys don't even know how the process goes because it is all behind the scenes.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: MrTiki on January 27, 2013, 10:30:18 pm
If I might suggest, due to my neutral stance on this topic, I am willing to moderate/host talks between FSE and Hekko. I feel we should get to the bottom of each side's arguments without outside interference before continuing this discussion.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Affjoris on January 27, 2013, 10:30:44 pm
 I don't agree with your first bullet. I was pretty much a "nobody in a videogame" which as I said makes no sense, but I will just be speaking using your thinking process. Even without being well known, not in a big regiment and all this other stuff people think influence the admin choosings, I was still chosen and warmly welcomed into the team. You guys don't even know how the process goes because it is all behind the scenes.
[/quote]

Well maybe it shoudnt be.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: av3ng3r on January 27, 2013, 10:31:58 pm
I don't agree with your first bullet. I was pretty much a "nobody in a videogame" which as I said makes no sense, but I will just be speaking using your thinking process. Even without being well known, not in a big regiment and all this other stuff people think influence the admin choosings, I was still chosen and warmly welcomed into the team. You guys don't even know how the process goes because it is all behind the scenes.

That is the problem which you apparently fail to see.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 10:32:42 pm
For the benefit of the people, I'll compile the list of grievances I find are rational in a simple list, and accompanied proposals on how to fix them. This may seem similar to the OP, but considering people have already strayed a considerable distance in page length from there, this may be helpful and accessible for newcomers, and those involved in the debate to keep their conversations on track. Let me know if there are any addendums you would like me to add, and I'll repost with the updated list if I find the grievance bears merit.

1. The selection process for Administrative Positions on the forums and for the servers is faulty, based too much on popularity, "veterancy" in the community, and favoritism on the part of the existing Administrative and Developer Staff. This brings in administrators who may display symptoms of personal indulgence and corruption, heavy-handedness, and hot-headedness.
-The solution would be a transparent reform of the way Administrators are picked. While they should not be community chosen, community input should be valued and put into legitimate consideration.

2. A continuation on the previous grievance, the appearance of nepotism on behalf of the staff, in particular Vincenzo, is deeply troubling in regards to the legitimacy of a 'professional', commercial company of any kind.
-Removal of administrator rights for those who benefit from nepotism should be immediate, regardless of ability. Corruption on the part of staff members should be seen as unacceptable.

3. The crackdowns on opinions and ideas from the community, including thread locking, mutes, bans permanent and temporary, and post deletion have made the FSE development and administrative staff quite infamous. It degrades its professionalism in the eyes of customers, and brings doubt into their seriousness and ability to carry projects through to completion, as well as satisfy community desires and improvements.
-Unban all those who have been banned solely due to voicing their concerns about the community, the staff, and issues with the game. The development staff should make an effort to show that community presented issues with gameplay, administrative rulings, or ideas for upcoming updates and games are appreciated, most importantly, giving equal attention to all well presented suggestions, with no favoritism in regards to community history or donations.

That is all that came to mind based on my viewing of the thread. Please let me know in a well presented post if there are any more grievances you would like added to the list, and I will duly add them shortly.

*EDIT*

Warning - while you were typing 36 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

...Oof.
I don't agree with your first bullet. I was pretty much a "nobody in a videogame" which as I said makes no sense, but I will just be speaking using your thinking process. Even without being well known, not in a big regiment and all this other stuff people think influence the admin choosings, I was still chosen and warmly welcomed into the team. You guys don't even know how the process goes because it is all behind the scenes.

I know the process, i have been denied/ignored 3 times before Hancock was head admin. I believe i could have been a good admin, but by the time someone ( i hope at leat) who trusted me was in a position to effect that, i was done with the offical servers as the gameplay is shoddy compared to the old days.

Good candidates get continuously ignored. I am not suggesting this will never happen, but the less it does is preferable.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Viktor 90th on January 27, 2013, 10:33:08 pm
Gentlemen, We asked for change. and didn't get it. that's all, just you all are now obsessed with the new popularity contest
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 27, 2013, 10:33:14 pm
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1089.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi356%2FAtomicB01%2Fbandicam2013-01-2715-44-22-680_zps488c2a7b.jpg&hash=c1b17ba417e6f0a588460c49f080114f126d22e1)

and dat

Warning - while you were typing 24 new replies has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 27, 2013, 10:33:31 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   ::)
They should have an interview process that lasts a week or so.
He did say, we would nominate them, so I don't get your point.

I personally do not frequent the Official Servers often, though from what I hear things have not been going well. As for some forum issues, I also think or rather though, that they were not being dealt with properly.

Refleax's post is in my eyes a satisfying step towards agreement.

There is one point I would like to add however which has already been mentioned, but I will nevertheless bring it back to mind.
There should be a poll or something of that sort, in which the community can decide who they want to keep as admins and who should lose their power. This should apply for most current admins, however some people even if disagreeable are necessary and thus should be excluded from the poll.

As for Death by EMP's earlier post, all I can say is Hekko is not someone who needs to be someone special. He has done tons for the community and has at least made the EU part of NW a lot more fun. He also clearly mentioned that he had HEARD of some things from the US part of NW, thus implicating that here, he is not certain. This evidently ruffled your feathers, eventhough it shouldn't have.

This is at least one suggestion and only MY opinion.Thanks for the answer Refleax.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hekko on January 27, 2013, 10:36:01 pm
I rarely get involved in this community, except for a few isolated jaunts into Mount and Blade: Napoleonic Wars, but recent events have caught my attention here. And while I get why there is some internal conflict within the "revolutionaries", as it were, I think it is valuable to take a step back and marvel at this:

"The main administrator of the forum actually made his girlfriend an administrator."

For those who defend them on behalf of the fact that they made the game, well, you would have been right a couple years ago when the group was a non-commercial modding group. However, they are now a fully independent, commercial game development studio, and they should put on their big boy britches, mature to criticism, and act like it.

That's my two cents. I'll be generous to myself and call it reason. 'Tis easy to get caught up in all this, so I thought I'd share my thoughts, is all. Hopefully I will be allowed to continue doing so in the days ahead. Thank you for your consideration.

There is alot I could respond too, but I think this is probably sums up the core of the problem the best.

FSE never has made the transition between being a group of people giving away a mod for free, to a commercial company. I hosted a party last night, a friend brought me a bottle a Galliano. I was grateful for it. The week before I hosted a separate party, I went to the store and bought a bottle of Galliano, I wasn't grateful towards the salesman because I paid for the product fair and square. Vince cannot assume that we owe him gratitude for making the game, because we have now payed for it, so he therefore has no gratitude to draw upon for people to turn a blind eye to his faux-pas. The obvious solution being to act up and not commit faux-pas.

FSE has not realised this and before they do there won't be any true change, because everything else is a symptom of this.

As Vorlen says I am not on a witchhunt for the admins, those who have overstepped their boundries know it, those who have not should not feel targeted. Death by EMP, if the way you responded to this is in anyway indicitave of how you admin you might want to take a step back and think a bit, because LittleGuy's response is by far better, more efficient and befitting of an admin. I am breaking two rules, the ridicolous solidarity rule and the secrecy rule, both of which serve to keep the community in the dark. I think a community is better of if the choices are made in such a way that they stand up to scrutiny.

Also, I would like to ask all of you not to bombard people who disagree with disrespectful PMs, a part of the problem is that dissenters have been silenced previously, so lets not be as bad as the top level administrators and let everyone have their say, regardless if you agree with the content on not.

Regarding Refleax's response:
It's a step in the right direction. However, it lacks a bit about codifying rules that are easy to understand and the reasoning behind them explained. People should understand why the rules are rules, that way people are alot more likely to comply. And all admins should be able to cite the reasoning if challenged for it.
And it still fails get to the core of the poodle, as outlined in the post I quoted, i.e. the fact that FSE actually has to earn the respect now rather than assuming it as granted, earning the respect through being fair, following their own rules and generally behaving better when admining and managing the community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Budzinskiy on January 27, 2013, 10:36:05 pm
Stand up for your rights!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tiberius Decimus Maximus on January 27, 2013, 10:36:22 pm
-The solution would be a transparent reform of the way Administrators are picked. While they should not be community chosen, community input should be valued and put into legitimate consideration.
I don't agree with your first bullet. I was pretty much a "nobody in a videogame" which as I said makes no sense, but I will just be speaking using your thinking process. Even without being well known, not in a big regiment and all this other stuff people think influence the admin choosings, I was still chosen and warmly welcomed into the team. You guys don't even know how the process goes because it is all behind the scenes.

Wanted to highlight that for you. And based on your behavior earlier, and what a fellow server administrator mentioned earlier as well, hotheadedness and varying levels of corruption are present. Whether you indulge in the latter, I am not qualified to say, though based on what others have said you are not innately corrupt. However, your response to the opinions of the community was inflammatory, and did not properly give respect to valid points, as well as insulting a fellow administrator who was kind, and likely wise enough, to raise the issue for the entire community so long-repressed opinions could be aired.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 10:36:27 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   ::)
They should have an interview process that lasts a week or so.
He did say, we would nominate them, so I don't get your point.

I personally do not frequent the Official Servers often, though from what I hear things have not been going well. As for some forum issues, I also think or rather though, that they were not being dealt with properly.

Refleax's post is in my eyes a satisfying step towards agreement.

There is one point I would like to add however which has already been mentioned, but I will nevertheless bring it back to mind.
There should be a poll or something of that sort, in which the community can decide who they want to keep as admins and who should lose their power. This should apply for most current admins, however some people even if disagreeable are necessary and thus should be excluded from the poll.

As for Death by EMP's earlier post, all I can say is Hekko is not someone who needs to be someone special. He has done tons for the community and has at least made the EU part of NW a lot more fun. He also clearly mentioned that he had HEARD of some things from the US part of NW, thus implicating that here, he is not certain. This evidently ruffled your feathers, eventhough it shouldn't have.

This is at least one suggestion and only MY opinion.Thanks for the answer Refleax.

Have to disagree with you on the poll idea Jackie ma bro. General community polls to decide something like that is just as open to abuse and scandal, as we saw with the 'Champions of europe'. Perhaps i'm fucking over the solution, but a community initiative, based upoin respected, transparant and fair leaders is preferable than an absolute democracy. In which anyone can vote to sway things.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: CHARLES111MAC on January 27, 2013, 10:37:06 pm
The name of regiments will always be up for grabs if a regiments disband. So i think its fair to say that anyone takes it.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Scorpia on January 27, 2013, 10:39:46 pm
Wow, I didn't think this would go this far. Lay off trying to get Vincenzo to speak, plus I do agree with Hekko. But I find it incredibly stupid how people are posting popcorn gifs or memes I also find it stupid how people are making a signature for this. I agree with USE4life, the best thing right now would be unban James Grant/Jezza, Daniel, Biggun, Craig and all the other people whom were banned. I do like the idea of a bunch of people being  representatives. But in a way I think it'll be another Champion of Europe fight sorta thing. So it'll be good to have them in a more secure area as you said.

But really, I speak for myself and maybe some other members of this community, what would make everyone happy, is the 51st rule removal. Which has been granted, and the unban of everyone we said, Biggun, James, Dan, Craig etc etc...
And the fix of the administrator recruitment and punishment.

Oh, and stop bloody sending abusive messages to people just because of their options, leave Jacob alone!


EDIT: Warning - while you were typing 10 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. Bloody hell.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 27, 2013, 10:40:09 pm
Since everyone is clearly ungrateful of what the US administration team is doing, and our own team members from the other side clearly think we are doing things wrong, I will be resigning from the administration team and will have my formal letter wrote out and posted soon. Thanks for the time everyone, maybe now I can actually enjoy the game like I used to.

Crunchie.  :'(
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vikestad on January 27, 2013, 10:40:36 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   ::)

Would rather have them choosing than having the fate of the forums be in the hands of these so-called revolutionaries

You really hate people, dont you?

No, but I do hate shit stirring kids unable to bring anything valuable to the table. You seem to fit the bill, Modig. Just another creature coming out of the woodworks to take part in the collective feast of idiocy. I'm not letting anyone of you speak for me. How about a moderate faction? What? Not fitting the "I'm 15 and angry at the establishment" sentiment that's going on? Shame.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 10:41:41 pm
As an added Titbit....

Me and 'Sid' were never really freiedns with granty or Daniel, in fact there was almost open hostility at points. Yet we agree that the banning was wrong, so we stand up for them.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 10:42:48 pm
Guys it's over, let's calm down, lock this thread and focus on reparing the community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 10:43:01 pm
How about we give it a rest for now? Tensions are rising, and for no reason. FSE has made their point, and we should wait for now.

For one, I support Vikestad as being a Representative (silly word). While we certainly don't agree on everything, I think he really wants the best for the community, instead of one part of it.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 27, 2013, 10:44:06 pm
Have to disagree with you on the poll idea Jackie ma bro. General community polls to decide something like that is just as open to abuse and scandal, as we saw with the 'Champions of europe'. Perhaps i'm fucking over the solution, but a community initiative, based upoin respected, transparant and fair leaders is preferable than an absolute democracy. In which anyone can vote to sway things.
Quite right, quite right. Still I think this would be a better thing to do. It could simply be a poll, without a propper thread, where you can post. This would naturally hide the reasons for the votes, but would at least keep it clean (as long as there's no poll rigging...). Plus, I would give the community a second chance at this, since it is the democratic way. We would be given the chance to make up for our own faults and show some maturity on our part. If we demand change fromt FSE, then we should also try to better ourselves.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Scorpia on January 27, 2013, 10:44:33 pm
Yes, let us just end it here for now and let this cool down for the night eh?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tiberius Decimus Maximus on January 27, 2013, 10:45:41 pm
By the way, for the record I think if people want to post their support for this movement, let them. Community opinion and thought have been repressed beforehand, even in the case of rational arguments and valid points. We cannot rely on mere rational discourse to carry the day here. The staff, as a few already have, have to realize the magnitude of community resentment towards existing conditions, and realize that it cannot be dispelled by a few bans on key figures. The more people who are involved, the less likely the lot of us will be banned wholesale for voicing our thoughts.

Again, my two cents. If they wish to be so upfront about their support, let them. I bear no ill will towards those who support what has already been said, they are good, valid points.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blade on January 27, 2013, 10:45:50 pm
Yes, let us just end it here for now and let this cool down for the night eh?

What about the people that are still banned?  :-\
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Millander on January 27, 2013, 10:46:27 pm
Wow, I didn't think this would go this far. Lay off trying to get Vincenzo to speak, plus I do agree with Hekko. But I find it incredibly stupid how people are posting popcorn gifs or memes I also find it stupid how people are making a signature for this. I agree with USE4life, the best thing right now would be unban James Grant/Jezza, Daniel, Biggun, Craig and all the other people whom were banned. I do like the idea of a bunch of people being  representatives. But in a way I think it'll be another Champion of Europe fight sorta thing. So it'll be good to have them in a more secure area as you said.

But really, I speak for myself and maybe some other members of this community, what would make everyone happy, is the 51st rule removal. Which has been granted, and the unban of everyone we said, Biggun, James, Dan, Craig etc etc...
And the fix of the administrator recruitment and punishment.

Oh, and stop bloody sending abusive messages to people just because of their options, leave Jacob alone!


EDIT: Warning - while you were typing 10 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post. Bloody hell.
People like you describe are the scum of this community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 10:46:42 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.

Let me guess, more "well-knowns" who "deserve admin"?   ::)

Would rather have them choosing than having the fate of the forums be in the hands of these so-called revolutionaries

You really hate people, dont you?

No, but I do hate shit stirring kids unable to bring anything valuable to the table. You seem to fit the bill, Modig. Just another creature coming out of the woodworks to take part in the collective feast of idiocy. I'm not letting anyone of you speak for me. How about a moderate faction? What? Not fitting the "I'm 15 and angry at the establishment" sentiment that's going on? Shame.

All I hear is "I hate 15e, I hate 15e. Q. Q. Q."

How about we give it a rest for now? Tensions are rising, and for no reason. FSE has made their point, and we should wait for now.

For one, I support Vikestad as being a Representative (silly word). While we certainly don't agree on everything, I think he really wants the best for the community, instead of one part of it.

He is eligible because he thinks everyone are douchebags?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tiberius Decimus Maximus on January 27, 2013, 10:49:02 pm
I'd also recommend against locking the thread. The community should be able to voice its thoughts, and everyone should have a chance to share their opinion on the events, as part of this community and a paying customer, provided they do not overstep forum rules.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Stacey#YOLO on January 27, 2013, 10:49:15 pm
Who wants to get drunk?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Modig on January 27, 2013, 10:49:24 pm
I'd also recommend against locking the thread. The community should be able to voice its thoughts, and everyone should have a chance to share their opinion on the events, as part of this community and a paying customer, provided they do not overstep forum rules.

That would have been quite ironic, yes
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Joker on January 27, 2013, 10:51:46 pm
Hekko, This wasn't a good way to handle it.
People should stop jumping on the band-wagon because it's cool to be against people, stirring up shit on this forums that has a player base of 60% minors is not a good idea, take it to a more private place if it is annoying you that much, I for one am not too happy about the 51st Locking, but it is a lot better to talk about it or do it in a more private way, this problem has just been tripled by everyone saying "Yeah go Hekko! Nice idea Bro" But still, the 51st is just a number a number out of a billion other options people could choose to make a name with. Now I am not siding with the developers or anyone, I am just pointing out that you are helping No-one by bitching about it on a public forum, and for god sake, putting a personal complaint about Melee into this is just silly, you don't like the melee, talk to someone, don't take the piss, It is so sad that it has come to this, the Developers never "Abandoned" us, it is just silly and childish to believe that.
Anyway, that is my opinion, take it as it is.

EDIT:
And get rid of all that "Revolution" Crap, it isn't helping anyone, stop trying to be hip and cool, Christ.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Millander on January 27, 2013, 10:53:00 pm
You folk should get a representative and pm it to vince rather than this unorginized rabble.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: MaHuD on January 27, 2013, 10:54:03 pm
Not to Vince, to Deoftua. Sorry can't write your name properly. :(
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Chosen1 on January 27, 2013, 10:54:23 pm
And stop with the "Vive la Revolution" and "Join the Revolution" bullshit. Its stupid and is unnecessary.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vikestad on January 27, 2013, 10:54:29 pm
Modig vindicated me with his reply. That was easy.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 27, 2013, 10:54:34 pm
Hekko, This wasn't a good way to handle it.
People should stop jumping on the band-wagon because it's cool to be against people, stirring up shit on this forums that has a player base of 60% minors is not a good idea, take it to a more private place if it is annoying you that much, I for one am not too happy about the 51st Locking, but it is a lot better to talk about it or do it in a more private way, this problem has just been tripled by everyone saying "Yeah go Hekko! Nice idea Bro" But still, the 51st is just a number a number out of a billion other options people could choose to make a name with. Now I am not siding with the developers or anyone, I am just pointing out that you are helping No-one by bitching about it on a public forum, and for god sake, putting a personal complaint about Melee into this is just silly, you don't like the melee, talk to someone, don't take the piss, It is so sad that it has come to this, the Developers never "Abandoned" us, it is just silly and childish to believe that.
Anyway, that is my opinion, take it as it is.
He did state that he has talked to them and without success. He said he was able to bring some changes for the melee system, but that they took forever.
As an individual you are easily ignored, but once lots of people have the same opinion you cannot overhear them.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Joker on January 27, 2013, 10:55:21 pm
Still, don't rabble it on the forums.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tiberius Decimus Maximus on January 27, 2013, 10:55:57 pm
No, this should be handled publicly, as it is an issue that has concerned a significant segment of the community.

And seriously? Your counter-argument is we are against them because it is "hip and cool"? Spare me. Please quote arguments you find faulty, and debate them, or else you're no better than the "Yeah go Hekko!" crowd.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 10:57:08 pm
No, this should be handled publicly, as it is an issue that has concerned a significant segment of the community.

And seriously? Your counter-argument is we are against them because it is "hip and cool"? Spare me. Please quote arguments you find faulty, and debate them, or else you're no better than the "Yeah go Hekko!" crowd.

One of the best posts all thread.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Joker on January 27, 2013, 10:57:12 pm
It wasn't a counter-argument, I am not on any side, I was simply pointing out this isn't helping anyone.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 10:57:15 pm
Before this thread is locked, I'd like admit that I got out of control at points in this discussion, and I apologize.With this war over, I look forward to returning to my average forum activities, and spending time in the community.

~Sincerely, Odysseus
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 27, 2013, 10:57:18 pm
No, this should be handled publicly, as it is an issue that has concerned a significant segment of the community.

And seriously? Your counter-argument is we are against them because it is "hip and cool"? Spare me. Please quote arguments you find faulty, and debate them, or else you're no better than the "Yeah go Hekko!" crowd.
At least some people are talking sense. Most of this is irrational, eventhough this post kind of went borderline too. :P
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Joker on January 27, 2013, 10:59:55 pm
Anyway, Glad this got solved,
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 27, 2013, 11:00:43 pm
This community is depriving, and frankly, more disturbed and messed up then the administrators.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tiberius Decimus Maximus on January 27, 2013, 11:01:14 pm
It wasn't a counter-argument, I am not on any side, I was simply pointing out this isn't helping anyone.

And I've posted reasonable points on why even the rabble crying for revolution is helpful, as long as rational people lead the arguments.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Feldmarschall_Ben on January 27, 2013, 11:02:38 pm
Hekko has a point.
yes. Eyerthing he wrote down is correct...


But FSE isn´t that bad. They have also made very good decisions. Decisions which stopped something what would have destroyed the community like those "forum contests" and other topics which were dangerous imo. All in all it is still their game and if they continue doing with what they are doing they will loose some players which would be sad... Looks like they absolute rulers and we want democracy. Look it up in history it is very interesting :D

But here comes the interesting part.
I have a suggestion.

Maybe FSE should communicate with regimental leaders who are leading maybe around 50 men longer that maybe 5 months because mostly that´s our lovely community which should be saved.
In order to prevent problems talking about such can stop them from happening...

Also. Please don´t ban Hekko for saying such things. He doesn´t want to harm anyone he wants to improve/rescue our community.
http://youtu.be/gmwTa9qRq0o That´s suitable <3
No one should feel defeated because no one was attacked.
Peace :D
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 27, 2013, 11:03:03 pm
This community is depriving, and frankly, more disturbed and messed up then the administrators.
Indeed it is, but posts like this don't really help.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: chuuch1 on January 27, 2013, 11:05:08 pm
Yep, agree with ya.  Shit admining.  Trigger happy, ban happy admins power tripping for the slightest infraction.  These guys need to review who they make admins and get some consistency when it comes to bans
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Death by EMP on January 27, 2013, 11:05:16 pm
I rarely get involved in this community, except for a few isolated jaunts into Mount and Blade: Napoleonic Wars, but recent events have caught my attention here. And while I get why there is some internal conflict within the "revolutionaries", as it were, I think it is valuable to take a step back and marvel at this:

"The main administrator of the forum actually made his girlfriend an administrator."

For those who defend them on behalf of the fact that they made the game, well, you would have been right a couple years ago when the group was a non-commercial modding group. However, they are now a fully independent, commercial game development studio, and they should put on their big boy britches, mature to criticism, and act like it.

That's my two cents. I'll be generous to myself and call it reason. 'Tis easy to get caught up in all this, so I thought I'd share my thoughts, is all. Hopefully I will be allowed to continue doing so in the days ahead. Thank you for your consideration.

There is alot I could respond too, but I think this is probably sums up the core of the problem the best.

FSE never has made the transition between being a group of people giving away a mod for free, to a commercial company. I hosted a party last night, a friend brought me a bottle a Galliano. I was grateful for it. The week before I hosted a separate party, I went to the store and bought a bottle of Galliano, I wasn't grateful towards the salesman because I paid for the product fair and square. Vince cannot assume that we owe him gratitude for making the game, because we have now payed for it, so he therefore has no gratitude to draw upon for people to turn a blind eye to his faux-pas. The obvious solution being to act up and not commit faux-pas.

FSE has not realised this and before they do there won't be any true change, because everything else is a symptom of this.

As Vorlen says I am not on a witchhunt for the admins, those who have overstepped their boundries know it, those who have not should not feel targeted. Death by EMP, if the way you responded to this is in anyway indicitave of how you admin you might want to take a step back and think a bit, because LittleGuy's response is by far better, more efficient and befitting of an admin. I am breaking two rules, the ridicolous solidarity rule and the secrecy rule, both of which serve to keep the community in the dark. I think a community is better of if the choices are made in such a way that they stand up to scrutiny.

Also, I would like to ask all of you not to bombard people who disagree with disrespectful PMs, a part of the problem is that dissenters have been silenced previously, so lets not be as bad as the top level administrators and let everyone have their say, regardless if you agree with the content on not.

Regarding Refleax's response:
It's a step in the right direction. However, it lacks a bit about codifying rules that are easy to understand and the reasoning behind them explained. People should understand why the rules are rules, that way people are alot more likely to comply. And all admins should be able to cite the reasoning if challenged for it.
And it still fails get to the core of the poodle, as outlined in the post I quoted, i.e. the fact that FSE actually has to earn the respect now rather than assuming it as granted, earning the respect through being fair, following their own rules and generally behaving better when admining and managing the community.
You obviously missed the part where I resigned because of you and a few other admins acting as if the US admin team needs to be babysat, and that we are below you. Now I may be reading wrong, but I think a good portion of your post was indeed about community "standings". To add on to that you publicly "insulting", and yes, I do believe it was insulting, rather than helpful, is entirely opposite of how a proper admin should present himself. To add on to that even more, you spoke as a member of the community and as an admin, therefore representing the admin team as well. I clearly stated that I was speaking as myself and my post had no ties to the rest of the admin team. Finally don't tell me that I need to step back and think, because I already did just that, and I decided that since everyone treats us like shit, including you, an outstanding member of the community and a member of the admin team, I did not want to deal with such offensive people. I will use what you told me "if this post is indicitave of how you admin you might want to take a step back and think a bit", I already did just that, but you certainly have not, and it is for the best that you do. I find it ironic that the "EU admin team" was supposedly monitoring us when apparently you were the team that needed the monitoring, since it was indeed you, a EU admin, who has made the mistake of breaking several admin regulations, in public.
That is the last thing I will say on this matter.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: PrideofNi on January 27, 2013, 11:07:12 pm
Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Death by EMP on January 27, 2013, 11:07:46 pm
Hekko, This wasn't a good way to handle it.
People should stop jumping on the band-wagon because it's cool to be against people, stirring up shit on this forums that has a player base of 60% minors is not a good idea, take it to a more private place if it is annoying you that much, I for one am not too happy about the 51st Locking, but it is a lot better to talk about it or do it in a more private way, this problem has just been tripled by everyone saying "Yeah go Hekko! Nice idea Bro" But still, the 51st is just a number a number out of a billion other options people could choose to make a name with. Now I am not siding with the developers or anyone, I am just pointing out that you are helping No-one by bitching about it on a public forum, and for god sake, putting a personal complaint about Melee into this is just silly, you don't like the melee, talk to someone, don't take the piss, It is so sad that it has come to this, the Developers never "Abandoned" us, it is just silly and childish to believe that.
Anyway, that is my opinion, take it as it is.

EDIT:
And get rid of all that "Revolution" Crap, it isn't helping anyone, stop trying to be hip and cool, Christ.
I wholeheartedly agree. I also agree with Ni on the Us administration subject.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Deofuta on January 27, 2013, 11:09:03 pm

Bai.

Hey Pride, just to fill you in, after some discussion we did choose to relax the ban on Craig/Hatake.

(and thank you for the support on the US side, I appreciate it and haven't been able to post recently to discuss it.)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: [60th]Valkyrie on January 27, 2013, 11:09:09 pm
To me its quite straight forward. I dont know FSE or what happened in BETA so its probably pointless me commenting.

But honestly the NW community is small enough as it is we dont need these type of arguments. From a point of view of a person like me who just sticks to the game and doesn't really bother with the forums much I have to say since the beginning I have not noticed anything badly wrong.  Sure some of the admins probably abuse their powers / are to trigger happy on the ban finger and need to be reined in a bit but at the same time are threads like this really necessary? This will in all honestly achieve nothing and will only further damage the NW community.

I have never encountered any problem with the FSE / their admins and I have 1110 hours on the game (yes a bit sad  ::)).

FSE should rethink how they do things / appoint admins if what I have read is true but people in the community need to be less demanding / argumentative in my opinion, remember its a game chaps.... not real life and in my opinion FSE hasn't done anything to jepordize that fun and infact I am very grateful for them developing such an awesome mod... its not always easy admining a game as some people think. We are meant to be here for some fun so lets please keep this game going and not all start ripping each others faces off...
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: MrTiki on January 27, 2013, 11:09:48 pm
Spoiler
Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.
[close]
Thank you, finally someone who is speaking in a rational manner...
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tiberius Decimus Maximus on January 27, 2013, 11:11:02 pm
So I would ask, please lock this thread before this gets any more out of hand, its not needed and will just turn into a flame war / a conflict of opinions.

I don't see why sharing of opinions should be reined in.  :-\
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Duuring on January 27, 2013, 11:13:25 pm
So I would ask, please lock this thread before this gets any more out of hand, its not needed and will just turn into a flame war / a conflict of opinions.

I don't see why sharing of opinions should be reined in.  :-\

It's no longer about sharing opinions, sadly. Things have been said, decisions have been made. There's, at this moment, nothing to be done, and we should lock this thread before people are saying stuff they shouldn't (In fact, they are already).
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Affjoris on January 27, 2013, 11:14:01 pm
Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.
Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.

And there i was, thinking Pride was only able to comment with the word nub in it :p

Good post and well said, altough i have the feeling my posts didnt fall under your "worth reading tag".
Which might well be rightfully so, because altough i was trying to make a ligitimate point, i may have done so in a wrongly manner. Then again most of us did.

EDIT: Great, fucked up there didnt I. And my Ipad doesnt seem to want to delete the first quote...
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tiberius Decimus Maximus on January 27, 2013, 11:15:10 pm
So I would ask, please lock this thread before this gets any more out of hand, its not needed and will just turn into a flame war / a conflict of opinions.

I don't see why sharing of opinions should be reined in.  :-\

It's no longer about sharing opinions, sadly. Things have been said, decisions have been made. There's, at this moment, nothing to be done, and we should lock this thread before people are saying stuff they shouldn't (In fact, they are already).

On the other hand, given the history of repression of community discourse on the given subjects, locking this thread would be a rather bad start to any "new era".
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: [60th]Valkyrie on January 27, 2013, 11:16:36 pm
The only reason why the thread should be locked is to stop flaming / insults between regiments thus causing rifts and damaging the game / community experience.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 27, 2013, 11:19:26 pm
Ni, I think you are correct with most of your points.
Criticizing the US side may not have been the right thing to do, though he also didn't force that topic, but merely said that he had heard some things, so I wouldn't elaborate on the US administrations, since I haven't heard any NA players specifically voice their complaints about the US Administration.
As for the EU Administration I have also never really seen any injustice, since I seldomly frequent the Official Servers, though reading some of the posts here, the appointing of admins does seem quite biased. True, they are mostly well-known players, but not all of them and why would being well known make you a good admin. You can be on the server often and still have flaws, which would allow you to play on the server, but now admin it. Other players may not be on the servers often but would have the qualities which are necessary. So that point is in my view invalid.
The rest I can agree on.

Spoiler
Some kisses for you!  :-* :-* :-*
[close]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Millander on January 27, 2013, 11:23:04 pm
Although much of it is silly its best to not lock the thread. Let people blow of their steam.

Already many of you folk have calmed down. Now I feel real progress can be made.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Sanderos25 on January 27, 2013, 11:25:14 pm
Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.
No that was not the point... i suggest you read it again, the point is that people that really do an effort for this game get cracked down and people that get invited to join, raise eyebrows in the community
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Edward on January 27, 2013, 11:25:35 pm
All I can say is FSE need to SoRt their shit out unless they wanna loose support
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 27, 2013, 11:27:16 pm
All I can say is FSE need to SoRt their shit out unless they wanna loose support
They've already taken some steps. If you want to know the entire thing, you'd have to read everything. Took me forever, but then at least you can give some proper arguments. :P
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Savolainen5 on January 27, 2013, 11:27:39 pm
Complaints about NA server administration likely stem from the fact that before the recent induction of a new wave of admins, rules were not strictly enforced because there were not many admins. Now that there are, some people feel that it's too heavy-handed, and it is precisely those that speak up, resulting in a good deal of observation bias on behalf of those who don't visit official US servers. As has always been stated, if you have a specific problem with a specific person on the US servers, you should contact Deo or LittleGuy and not yell about it somewhere.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Sanderos25 on January 27, 2013, 11:29:16 pm
All I can say is FSE need to SoRt their shit out unless they wanna loose support
They've already taken some steps. If you want to know the entire thing, you'd have to read everything. Took me forever, but then at least you can give some proper arguments. :P
What steps? appointing reps? how much do you actually think they can do? it will be just as corrupt as it is now
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 27, 2013, 11:30:07 pm
Hello Everyone,

In light of recent comments and opinions voiced by some of the community, we feel its best to restate the position of FSE in relation to the community and the official servers. The servers which we maintain are done so on a voluntary basis at private expense for the benefit of the public players for the sake of community, we try to host servers that are open to all and and are fun to play on, to the best of our ability.

Now, the difficulty of maintaining these servers is obvious and despite our efforts, there will be failures on the part of the admin team and the owners. As a game development company we have overstepped ourselves when dealing with the community. To that end, we will be making certain changes in regards how FSE deals with the community:

1. FSE will be taking a step back from community altering decisions. In our pursuit of stopping an argument that had been made three times over the possession of the 51st name we rashly decided to remove the object that was contested, instead of punishing the ones who were breaking forum policy. Inadvertently we managed to punish the entire community by removing something that rightfully should have been theirs. For this, we apologize, and will now rectify. We will no longer withhold  any regiment number, even if it proves a source of great controversy and fighting. We will no longer involve ourselves in this process. As such we will return it to the last community member that had possession of said regiment name.

2. Now, even though we are from now going to step back from these kind of decisions and loosen the grip we try to have over the community, there may be a time in the future when such decisions may need to be made. But it will no longer only be in our hands, instead If such a time comes, we will need a base of respected players who can give an informed opinion on such decisions, before we make them. Thus, we will be instituting a new group of players on our forums, the NW Community Representatives. They will be nominated by the community, and will have access to a new forum board area. If FSE sees a need to make a community altering decision, we will first post the proposal of such in this area, in order to gain necessary community feedback so as to make an informed decision. This place will be carefully watched Their opinions will guide our policy, and allow the community a voice to the FSE management.

We will be setting up the Community Representative Process shortly. I look forward to serious dialogue taking place, with real solutions being found with help from both the administration and the community.
This is what they have decided on doing so far.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 27, 2013, 11:31:11 pm
All I can say is FSE need to SoRt their shit out unless they wanna loose support
They've already taken some steps. If you want to know the entire thing, you'd have to read everything. Took me forever, but then at least you can give some proper arguments. :P
What steps? appointing reps? how much do you actually think they can do? it will be just as corrupt as it is now
Steps are called steps for a reason. They are gradual. You can't just magically appear in another place; you have to walk there.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: PrideofNi on January 27, 2013, 11:34:40 pm
Ni, I think you are correct with most of your points.
Criticizing the US side may not have been the right thing to do, though he also didn't force that topic, but merely said that he had heard some things, so I wouldn't elaborate on the US administrations, since I haven't heard any NA players specifically voice their complaints about the US Administration.
As for the EU Administration I have also never really seen any injustice, since I seldomly frequent the Official Servers, though reading some of the posts here, the appointing of admins does seem quite biased. True, they are mostly well-known players, but not all of them and why would being well known make you a good admin. You can be on the server often and still have flaws, which would allow you to play on the server, but now admin it. Other players may not be on the servers often but would have the qualities which are necessary. So that point is in my view invalid.
The rest I can agree on.

Spoiler
Some kisses for you!  :-* :-* :-*
[close]

First of thank you Jackie for putting some points forward  :-* I only mentioned the US side as I see due to Hekko's silly accusations a valued member of the US team is lost, which I know Crunch was since I mid-night raid from time to time  :P

I mentioned well known why? Simple to show the logic that well known players shouldn't be admin doesn't make sence, if that aren't active on the server then what is the point? I am not saying its the only quality that should be looked for but its should be one, the reason being as I mentioned above. EU admins are decided upon by the invitation of the head admin and Vince sometimes. This system is different than US. Not saying its better, not saying its worse. Some of the aggressive tones have come because Hekko's friend didn't get admin, I will keep my views on that in the place they are meant to be, as we all agreed to the rules that came with being an Official admin, to which I want to follow. How can one enforce the rules if he does not follow them?

Spoiler
Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.
No that was not the point... i suggest you read it again, the point is that people that really do an effort for this game get cracked down and people that get invited to join, raise eyebrows in the community
[close]
Could you be more specific with what you are referring to as I don't understand what you are talking about.


All I can say is FSE need to SoRt their shit out unless they wanna loose support

Can you also be more specific, sort WHAT out. You post here saying they need to sort something out yet don't say what nor say what you want. Try and think as you are in the other persons shoes to imagine what they need from you...its quite helpful.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blade on January 27, 2013, 11:37:44 pm
I hope this is a joke..

Spoiler
23:13 - ****: The community representative thing is utterly useless
23:13 - Blobmania [Redthorn-Dev]: Shush, people aren't meant to be realising that yet :P
23:13 - ****: so tempted to post this on the thread now
23:14 - ****: ....
23:14 - Blobmania [Redthorn-Dev]: Haha
23:14 - ****: I actually don't give a fuck about this. The community is shit from bottom to top with some exceptions.
[close]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 27, 2013, 11:40:21 pm
Ni, I think you are correct with most of your points.
Criticizing the US side may not have been the right thing to do, though he also didn't force that topic, but merely said that he had heard some things, so I wouldn't elaborate on the US administrations, since I haven't heard any NA players specifically voice their complaints about the US Administration.
As for the EU Administration I have also never really seen any injustice, since I seldomly frequent the Official Servers, though reading some of the posts here, the appointing of admins does seem quite biased. True, they are mostly well-known players, but not all of them and why would being well known make you a good admin. You can be on the server often and still have flaws, which would allow you to play on the server, but now admin it. Other players may not be on the servers often but would have the qualities which are necessary. So that point is in my view invalid.
The rest I can agree on.

Spoiler
Some kisses for you!  :-* :-* :-*
[close]

First of thank you Jackie for putting some points forward  :-* I only mentioned the US side as I see due to Hekko's silly accusations a valued member of the US team is lost, which I know Crunch was since I mid-night raid from time to time  :P

I mentioned well known why? Simple to show the logic that well known players shouldn't be admin doesn't make sence, if that aren't active on the server then what is the point? I am not saying its the only quality that should be looked for but its should be one, the reason being as I mentioned above. EU admins are decided upon by the invitation of the head admin and Vince sometimes. This system is different than US. Not saying its better, not saying its worse. Some of the aggressive tones have come because Hekko's friend didn't get admin, I will keep my views on that in the place they are meant to be, as we all agreed to the rules that came with being an Official admin, to which I want to follow. How can one enforce the rules if he does not follow them?

Spoiler
Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.
No that was not the point... i suggest you read it again, the point is that people that really do an effort for this game get cracked down and people that get invited to join, raise eyebrows in the community
[close]
Could you be more specific with what you are referring to as I don't understand what you are talking about.

Well, no. This was never a lynch mob. If people want to get up and /quit instead of constructive discussion then in my eyes that shows something. No-one is saying "OMG U GOTZ 2 QUIT". I didn't even want Kitty removed, i don't know her, i dont have an opinion on her at all. What i question is the general management and hypocritical decisions. If that causes people to act prematurely so be it. Littleguy stood up preparted to take the flak on himself, and i commend that.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Chaos on January 27, 2013, 11:40:39 pm
I hope this is a joke..

Spoiler
23:13 - ****: The community representative thing is utterly useless
23:13 - Blobmania [Redthorn-Dev]: Shush, people aren't meant to be realising that yet :P
23:13 - ****: so tempted to post this on the thread now
23:14 - ****: ....
23:14 - Blobmania [Redthorn-Dev]: Haha
23:14 - ****: I actually don't give a fuck about this. The community is shit from bottom to top with some exceptions.
[close]
Oh lawd
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 27, 2013, 11:43:58 pm
Ni, I think you are correct with most of your points.
Criticizing the US side may not have been the right thing to do, though he also didn't force that topic, but merely said that he had heard some things, so I wouldn't elaborate on the US administrations, since I haven't heard any NA players specifically voice their complaints about the US Administration.
As for the EU Administration I have also never really seen any injustice, since I seldomly frequent the Official Servers, though reading some of the posts here, the appointing of admins does seem quite biased. True, they are mostly well-known players, but not all of them and why would being well known make you a good admin. You can be on the server often and still have flaws, which would allow you to play on the server, but now admin it. Other players may not be on the servers often but would have the qualities which are necessary. So that point is in my view invalid.
The rest I can agree on.

Spoiler
Some kisses for you!  :-* :-* :-*
[close]

First of thank you Jackie for putting some points forward  :-* I only mentioned the US side as I see due to Hekko's silly accusations a valued member of the US team is lost, which I know Crunch was since I mid-night raid from time to time  :P

I mentioned well known why? Simple to show the logic that well known players shouldn't be admin doesn't make sence, if that aren't active on the server then what is the point? I am not saying its the only quality that should be looked for but its should be one, the reason being as I mentioned above. EU admins are decided upon by the invitation of the head admin and Vince sometimes. This system is different than US. Not saying its better, not saying its worse. Some of the aggressive tones have come because Hekko's friend didn't get admin, I will keep my views on that in the place they are meant to be, as we all agreed to the rules that came with being an Official admin, to which I want to follow. How can one enforce the rules if he does not follow them?
Ah, well I might have phrased a bit mysteriously or simply incorrect there. :P
Well-known doesn't necessarily need you being active on that server. You can be active on it, but not be known at all, simply because you do not communicate much or aren't brilliant at melee. You are quite right that the admins should be active on the server and I was wrong saying that they don't have to be, since if they are not, how can they be up to date. Still that shouldn't be the soul criteria in my opinion.
As for Hekko breaking the admin rules, I already said, that I doubt he'd have achieved much by sticking to the admin circles instead of the normal community. Again I might be mistaken here, since I know close to nothing about the EU admins.
Point is, Hekko achieved something, which lots of people wanted. He might have broken the rules, but he also said he was aware of the consequences his post might have. I respect his move and I would also forgive his breaking of the rules, simply because I know him to be a respectable person and not a notorious rulebreaker.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 27, 2013, 11:44:51 pm
I hope this is a joke..

Spoiler
23:13 - ****: The community representative thing is utterly useless
23:13 - Blobmania [Redthorn-Dev]: Shush, people aren't meant to be realising that yet :P
23:13 - ****: so tempted to post this on the thread now
23:14 - ****: ....
23:14 - Blobmania [Redthorn-Dev]: Haha
23:14 - ****: I actually don't give a fuck about this. The community is shit from bottom to top with some exceptions.
[close]
Oh lawd
It's called a joke, ya dinguses.  :D
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Chaos on January 27, 2013, 11:45:24 pm
I hope this is a joke..

Spoiler
23:13 - ****: The community representative thing is utterly useless
23:13 - Blobmania [Redthorn-Dev]: Shush, people aren't meant to be realising that yet :P
23:13 - ****: so tempted to post this on the thread now
23:14 - ****: ....
23:14 - Blobmania [Redthorn-Dev]: Haha
23:14 - ****: I actually don't give a fuck about this. The community is shit from bottom to top with some exceptions.
[close]
Oh lawd
It's called a joke, ya dinguses.  :D
We know :P
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 27, 2013, 11:46:44 pm
C'mon guys, let's give this new system a chance first.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Offizer on January 27, 2013, 11:46:59 pm
Just finished reading every single post before mine.

+1 100% Support from me, would love to see some change, especially the North-American side.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Savolainen5 on January 27, 2013, 11:49:11 pm
100% Support from me, would love to see some change, especially the North-American side.

What do you mean?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: av3ng3r on January 27, 2013, 11:50:09 pm
C'mon guys, let's give this new system a chance first.

There is no new system
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: PrideofNi on January 27, 2013, 11:52:48 pm
Spoiler
Ni, I think you are correct with most of your points.
Criticizing the US side may not have been the right thing to do, though he also didn't force that topic, but merely said that he had heard some things, so I wouldn't elaborate on the US administrations, since I haven't heard any NA players specifically voice their complaints about the US Administration.
As for the EU Administration I have also never really seen any injustice, since I seldomly frequent the Official Servers, though reading some of the posts here, the appointing of admins does seem quite biased. True, they are mostly well-known players, but not all of them and why would being well known make you a good admin. You can be on the server often and still have flaws, which would allow you to play on the server, but now admin it. Other players may not be on the servers often but would have the qualities which are necessary. So that point is in my view invalid.
The rest I can agree on.

Spoiler
Some kisses for you!  :-* :-* :-*
[close]

First of thank you Jackie for putting some points forward  :-* I only mentioned the US side as I see due to Hekko's silly accusations a valued member of the US team is lost, which I know Crunch was since I mid-night raid from time to time  :P

I mentioned well known why? Simple to show the logic that well known players shouldn't be admin doesn't make sence, if that aren't active on the server then what is the point? I am not saying its the only quality that should be looked for but its should be one, the reason being as I mentioned above. EU admins are decided upon by the invitation of the head admin and Vince sometimes. This system is different than US. Not saying its better, not saying its worse. Some of the aggressive tones have come because Hekko's friend didn't get admin, I will keep my views on that in the place they are meant to be, as we all agreed to the rules that came with being an Official admin, to which I want to follow. How can one enforce the rules if he does not follow them?

Spoiler
Well after reading through this thread for the last 20mins, I can't say I am surprised. Yes, the team made some weird decisions and things where getting out of control (Craigs ban, and only Craigs ban). Some of the insulting remarks is horrendous in this thread. Read through the thread again when you aren't high as a kite looking for drama, which I know for a fact some of you are. Look at what "community" you make us out to be. Not one I would want to be apart of and one I am thankful I know in reality it isn't.

Firstly lets get down to the server administration. Of which there is a lot I could say on the issue however I will keep it brief to the topics already mentioned as this isn't the place to bring up more. EU server, how many of you have been wronged by the admin, I repeat, ADMIN, not dev. I couldn't imagine the list is long. I have played on many games and we are quite lucky for the EU server and team we have. I admit we do make some mistakes, however it isn't out of ill-will, we are doing this TO HELP other players, obviously. Hence why if you ask for an admin in the chat we try and address your concern or when you message us on steam, we try and help you out. Sure there are some questionable people in the team and more thinking needs to be done before appointing more admins. There is a big uproar about "well known people getting admin". Tell me, how do you become well know? More than likely being on the server, which is pretty key when selecting an admin, so I do not understand that logic.

On to the US team. Quite frankly I have no idea how any EU member can critise them. Tell me Hekko, how many times have you been on the US server? I bet its not more than I have. You have no idea the difference and the hard job US admins have. So please, don't start busting out wild accusations by saying you heard this or that just as a way to attack FSE.

Now onto the main point. Forum administration. I think the real issue here is, rules are not specific enough and perhaps there just isn't enough coverage. I have seen plenty of pathetic drama on this forum, some of it is funny I must admit, some of it is just boring and lame (51st name). I do not agree, as previously stated with Craigs ban, was a tad heavy handed, which must be avoided so that a forum can be what it should. A place of free discussion, ideas etc. I understand that inorder to grow the community the forums need to be a welcoming place and lets be fair, we as a community somewhat fail on that one. We can not solely blame FSE team for it, however they should take some heat for their role played, of which is being over reacted upon in this thread.

Reading through this thread I saw little but pity arguing with only a few posts worth reading. We need to rethink the struct of the forum and how and what should be punished and how. With a clear and transparent system so that people know whats happening and why.

I hope that this post will be taken in the light it was wrote in and not simply bashed. I also hope you provide something to the discussion so that we can finally put this community to rest. Which btw is far more peaceful than some of the other ones I have and still am in (total war...my goodness lol).

Bai.
No that was not the point... i suggest you read it again, the point is that people that really do an effort for this game get cracked down and people that get invited to join, raise eyebrows in the community
[close]
Could you be more specific with what you are referring to as I don't understand what you are talking about.

Well, no. This was never a lynch mob. If people want to get up and /quit instead of constructive discussion then in my eyes that shows something. No-one is saying "OMG U GOTZ 2 QUIT". I didn't even want Kitty removed, i don't know her, i dont have an opinion on her at all. What i question is the general management and hypocritical decisions. If that causes people to act prematurely so be it. Littleguy stood up preparted to take the flak on himself, and i commend that.
[close]

While yes I agree admins should have thick skin..you have no idea the abuse an admin gets in US1. People in the EU server wouldn't dare do it, thats how much of a difference there is...atleast since I was last there. I think Deo and Little have went great ways to making it a better place.

However Crunch is a simple admin, gets abuse every day on the server and then it turns to getting abuse on this forum and from an apparent admin who knows, seemly, nothing about Crunch nor the US server. To be honest, I wouldn't even bother debating the subject around that section since Hekko is only basing it on rumors. However obviously this has been the last straw and sadly the US team loses a valued member. As to the other resignations, sure nobody asked for them, however the all so called evil people stepped down. Probably because they aren't in this to get childish remarks thrown at them every 2 seconds so being fed up and quitting is hardly a dishonorable or bad thing. What is important is that the lost of these people creates important change for everyone.


Spoiler
Ni, I think you are correct with most of your points.
Criticizing the US side may not have been the right thing to do, though he also didn't force that topic, but merely said that he had heard some things, so I wouldn't elaborate on the US administrations, since I haven't heard any NA players specifically voice their complaints about the US Administration.
As for the EU Administration I have also never really seen any injustice, since I seldomly frequent the Official Servers, though reading some of the posts here, the appointing of admins does seem quite biased. True, they are mostly well-known players, but not all of them and why would being well known make you a good admin. You can be on the server often and still have flaws, which would allow you to play on the server, but now admin it. Other players may not be on the servers often but would have the qualities which are necessary. So that point is in my view invalid.
The rest I can agree on.

Spoiler
Some kisses for you!  :-* :-* :-*
[close]

First of thank you Jackie for putting some points forward  :-* I only mentioned the US side as I see due to Hekko's silly accusations a valued member of the US team is lost, which I know Crunch was since I mid-night raid from time to time  :P

I mentioned well known why? Simple to show the logic that well known players shouldn't be admin doesn't make sence, if that aren't active on the server then what is the point? I am not saying its the only quality that should be looked for but its should be one, the reason being as I mentioned above. EU admins are decided upon by the invitation of the head admin and Vince sometimes. This system is different than US. Not saying its better, not saying its worse. Some of the aggressive tones have come because Hekko's friend didn't get admin, I will keep my views on that in the place they are meant to be, as we all agreed to the rules that came with being an Official admin, to which I want to follow. How can one enforce the rules if he does not follow them?
Ah, well I might have phrased a bit mysteriously or simply incorrect there. :P
Well-known doesn't necessarily need you being active on that server. You can be active on it, but not be known at all, simply because you do not communicate much or aren't brilliant at melee. You are quite right that the admins should be active on the server and I was wrong saying that they don't have to be, since if they are not, how can they be up to date. Still that shouldn't be the soul criteria in my opinion.
As for Hekko breaking the admin rules, I already said, that I doubt he'd have achieved much by sticking to the admin circles instead of the normal community. Again I might be mistaken here, since I know close to nothing about the EU admins.
Point is, Hekko achieved something, which lots of people wanted. He might have broken the rules, but he also said he was aware of the consequences his post might have. I respect his move and I would also forgive his breaking of the rules, simply because I know him to be a respectable person and not a notorious rulebreaker.
[close]

Yes but, they will be known to admins. Why? Because they would be pointing out stuff, trying to enforce the rules as it is. They should be showing enough desire that admins are bound to know them. But I agree and did say so in my post, not the soul criteria.

Well, it could have waited as things WHERE being discussed but he decided to go ahead and post this anyway for whatever reason. Its done, I am not going to debate the right and wrong about it, he decided to do it, I am just saying that I won't bring anything up that should be.

However there is nothing wrong with the servers as the moment, I think that would be the general acceptance. Atleast I think, there doesn't seem to be much clarity on what people want  :-\ Bar something about a revolution. Atleast I have you to bounce issues back and fourth with Jackie  :-*
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 27, 2013, 11:58:51 pm
C'mon guys, let's give this new system a chance first.

There is no new system
There is in fact. If you don't see it in clarity yet, you will at some point.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Skyz on January 27, 2013, 11:59:04 pm

I have not that much experience with the US administrative policy, some of the recent choices make me wonder though how the American side chooses admins, and from what I have heard from other admins that play on US1 at times as well, is that some of the new US1 admins are tripping balls with their new adminpowers, waiting for opportunities to flex their strength for the least offence.

100% true
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hoffmann on January 28, 2013, 12:00:00 am
I do support Hekko's point. Hekko, you sir have some balls... Take all the respect you'd like.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: av3ng3r on January 28, 2013, 12:03:25 am
C'mon guys, let's give this new system a chance first.

There is no new system
There is in fact. If you don't see it in clarity yet, you will at some point.

The FSE team is laughing at your naivety
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: MaHuD on January 28, 2013, 12:04:49 am
Or you could give them time to proof themselves?

If you don't allow them to rectify mistakes and try to fix them in a way that they think will work better, then you shouldn't be posting here.
Then you should just leave the game entirely.  :-\
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 28, 2013, 12:06:42 am
The FSE team is laughing at your naivety
Think what you will, but there are noticeable changes that you will see in the coming days. I only hope you will discontinue the disrespectful attitude you have now; I don't want to see anyone else get warned/moderated/muted/banned for an escalated temper.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 28, 2013, 12:09:12 am
This went from trying to persuade new ways to the FSE staff to trying to personally and emotionally harm the FSE staff.
I will say that this community is way more messed up then the staff.
-1
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Death by EMP on January 28, 2013, 12:09:54 am
This went from trying to persuade new ways to the FSE staff to trying to personally and emotionally harm the FSE staff.
I will say that this community is way more messed up then the staff.
-1
+1
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Salt on January 28, 2013, 12:11:30 am
This went from trying to persuade new ways to the FSE staff to trying to personally and emotionally harm the FSE staff.
I will say that this community is way more messed up then the staff.
-1

It's a shame that there are some members of the community incapable of mature discussion.  :(
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Vorlen on January 28, 2013, 12:12:36 am
I don't know crunch. And Hekko barely said anything about the US admins. But yes, they should have a thicker skin. -My- experience of US admining has been bad, so i can sympathise with the oposition on this one, that not to say all US admins are cunts, merely that it's not been to a high standard, and is more people playing the game and banning people when they want, than doing a good job of keeping the server integrity and good moderation. I see racism and slurs which admins ignore 2/3 times i am on that server, to the point that i just take it as part of the attitude over there(although again, this isn't directed at any of the candidates in question).

There was no conspiracy to slander people's individual reputation, but to bring to bare many things that people have noticed. I will go out on a limb and say that Hekko has done more for NW since launch than anyone, including the Devs. The Devs coded sure, but every improvement has been due to Hekko'#s relenntless atiitude, every INTERESTING piece of gameplay has been due to Hekko's organisation. He should be on the bloody payroll, if it wasn't for him many more players would have left.(This isn't a serious demand, just an illustartion of his importance)

I don't think i said a bad word about FSE till NW came out. In fact i was a staunch supporter of the "Pay for the DLC, the Devs of this mod deserve it". It was pointed out in another thread that people may be letting past grievances interupt other issues. But the fact that these past grievances have either not been resolved or not resolved in a satisfactory or competant manner is a big deal to me.

Quote
ink what you will, but there are noticeable changes that you will see in the coming days. I only hope you will discontinue the disrespectful attitude you have now; I don't want to see anyone else get warned/moderated/muted/banned for an escalated temper.
The number one change I would like to see is a bit more respect for people who got their mod and the possibility of their own game coming out to where it is today. And no, again, not me. Just in general.
Quote
Quote from: Xeroth on Today at 12:09:12 am

    This went from trying to persuade new ways to the FSE staff to trying to personally and emotionally harm the FSE staff.
    I will say that this community is way more messed up then the staff.
    -1

+1

Explain how please? How are we trying to hurt them. As i said, i can look through the names of posters and link them to the names of alot of donators fopr BCoF. Some have given an incredible amount.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 28, 2013, 12:15:20 am
This went from trying to persuade new ways to the FSE staff to trying to personally and emotionally harm the FSE staff.
I will say that this community is way more messed up then the staff.
-1
+1
Lol. Go suck up to the admins more please. This community is fucked up due to the way it's run, it's not that hard to comprehend.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: av3ng3r on January 28, 2013, 12:15:35 am
The FSE team is laughing at your naivety
Think what you will, but there are noticeable changes that you will see in the coming days. I only hope you will discontinue the disrespectful attitude you have now; I don't want to see anyone else get warned/moderated/muted/banned for an escalated temper.

I don't think it. I have it on good evidence....
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: PrideofNi on January 28, 2013, 12:23:54 am
I don't know crunch. And Hekko barely said anything about the US admins. But yes, they should have a thicker skin. -My- experience of US admining has been bad, so i can sympathise with the oposition on this one, that not to say all US admins are cunts, merely that it's not been to a high standard, and is more people playing the game and banning people when they want, than doing a good job of keeping the server integrity and good moderation. I see racism and slurs which admins ignore 2/3 times i am on that server, to the point that i just take it as part of the attitude over there(although again, this isn't directed at any of the candidates in question).

There was no conspiracy to slander people's individual reputation, but to bring to bare many things that people have noticed. I will go out on a limb and say that Hekko has done more for NW since launch than anyone, including the Devs. The Devs coded sure, but every improvement has been due to Hekko'#s relenntless atiitude, every INTERESTING piece of gameplay has been due to Hekko's organisation. He should be on the bloody payroll, if it wasn't for him many more players would have left.(This isn't a serious demand, just an illustartion of his importance)

I don't think i said a bad word about FSE till NW came out. In fact i was a staunch supporter of the "Pay for the DLC, the Devs of this mod deserve it". It was pointed out in another thread that people may be letting past grievances interupt other issues. But the fact that these past grievances have either not been resolved or not resolved in a satisfactory or competant manner is a big deal to me.


He still mentioned it and if you look back there is like a page or 2 of abuse at Crunch just because he stood up to it as what it was, accusations that had no weight behind them. I share your experience with the US server..maybe 5-6months ago. It is changing and trust me, on that server its not an easy task. People did get anyway with everything. However is that relevant now? Do you say the same now? And the same for EU official admins? Since you are the only one debating, I am trying to see what the issue is, so we can actually fix it instead of this random SORT YO SHIT OUT FSE!! posts.

I don't believe Hekko to be a bad person but whether he wanted it or not, he insult and challenged the reputation of people who have worked tireless on the game and community. To be fair, ingame official servers, name the issue? The forum...name specific issues which make you angry. What do you want?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Death by EMP on January 28, 2013, 12:29:57 am
How are we sucking up if I am an ex admin?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 28, 2013, 12:33:24 am
How are we sucking up if I am an ex admin?
You don't have to be an admin or an ex-admin to suck up...

Jesus.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hekko on January 28, 2013, 12:34:51 am
After having had a very long conversation with Donald I will have to admit to being slightly wrong in my representation of him and his behaviour. Apperantly he was a global moderator because he set the forum up, not because he was an actual moderator, which of course changes some of the stuff that I said about him. My opinion fundamentally hasn't changed though, just some of the examples used, also it means that Donald is a unfairly singled out since he isn't a senior staff member as I thought he was.

This goes to show a part of the problem though, how the secrecy and lack of information creates problems where there need not be problems.

Once again, I am sorry Donald for misrepresenting some of your actions.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: smothdude on January 28, 2013, 12:36:33 am
Viva la revolution!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 28, 2013, 12:37:21 am
Viva la revolution!
Just stop. Makes no sense, helps no one, not even those who began making and wearing those sigs and such.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Diplex on January 28, 2013, 12:38:11 am
Viva la revolution!
Just stop. Makes no sense, helps no one, not even those who began making and wearing those sigs and such.

I full-heartedly agree.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blobmania on January 28, 2013, 12:39:56 am
My only regret is that I wasn't mentioned in the OP. Either I'm not important enough, or I'm just rather boring.

Good Luck to the candidates. I'll be using my vote.

French Kitten.

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m3k6p3zevw1qlo1p8o1_500.gif&hash=f8f781a99eb195db30791d9dc715208b57e37705)
[close]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 28, 2013, 12:40:40 am
NO SEE KITTY!  :'(
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blobmania on January 28, 2013, 12:41:34 am
Apologies, it was the only french kitten I could find. If you can find another, I'll happily replace my current feline companion.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hekko on January 28, 2013, 12:41:42 am
My only regret is that I wasn't mentioned in the OP. Either I'm not important enough, or I'm just rather boring.

Good Luck to the candidates. I'll be using my vote.

French Kitten.

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fodin.mobile9.com%2Fdownload%2Fmedia%2F41%2Ffrenchkitt_xeaebzv6.gif&hash=5f419eca28783e3cbc18981eb30c736e03c8b69d)
[close]

I hadn't really seen you misusing your administrative powers ever, I mean, slap a ban on someone random in the thread and I'll be more than happy to edit you into the OP.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blobmania on January 28, 2013, 12:44:38 am
Don't tempt me  ::)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: smothdude on January 28, 2013, 12:45:29 am
Viva la revolution!
Just stop. Makes no sense, helps no one, not even those who began making and wearing those sigs and such.
Was bored... Sorry :/
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Bashy on January 28, 2013, 12:48:01 am
My only regret is that I wasn't mentioned in the OP. Either I'm not important enough, or I'm just rather boring.

Good Luck to the candidates. I'll be using my vote.

French Kitten.

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m3k6p3zevw1qlo1p8o1_500.gif&hash=f8f781a99eb195db30791d9dc715208b57e37705)
[close]

Is my kitten cute

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flegacy-cdn.smosh.com%2Fsmosh-pit%2F122010%2Fugly-cat-2.jpg&hash=fe34f8ab4d20eae22066d553ea5c8e9bb0024912)
[close]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 28, 2013, 12:48:52 am
Was bored... Sorry :/
Ah. Boredom. One of the world's most intriguing, and at times, destructive, enigma in the world.

My only regret is that I wasn't mentioned in the OP. Either I'm not important enough, or I'm just rather boring.

Good Luck to the candidates. I'll be using my vote.

French Kitten.

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m3k6p3zevw1qlo1p8o1_500.gif&hash=f8f781a99eb195db30791d9dc715208b57e37705)
[close]

Is my kitten cute

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flegacy-cdn.smosh.com%2Fsmosh-pit%2F122010%2Fugly-cat-2.jpg&hash=fe34f8ab4d20eae22066d553ea5c8e9bb0024912)
[close]
That's a...cute kitty...
Spoiler
/me goes to shiver in his bed.
[close]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: RockheadRumple on January 28, 2013, 12:49:26 am
creates problems where there need not be problems.
/Thread
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: James Stewart on January 28, 2013, 12:49:37 am
My only regret is that I wasn't mentioned in the OP. Either I'm not important enough, or I'm just rather boring.

Good Luck to the candidates. I'll be using my vote.

French Kitten.

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fodin.mobile9.com%2Fdownload%2Fmedia%2F41%2Ffrenchkitt_xeaebzv6.gif&hash=5f419eca28783e3cbc18981eb30c736e03c8b69d)
[close]

I hadn't really seen you misusing your administrative powers ever, I mean, slap a ban on someone random in the thread and I'll be more than happy to edit you into the OP.
I have.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Bashy on January 28, 2013, 12:50:31 am
My only regret is that I wasn't mentioned in the OP. Either I'm not important enough, or I'm just rather boring.

Good Luck to the candidates. I'll be using my vote.

French Kitten.

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fodin.mobile9.com%2Fdownload%2Fmedia%2F41%2Ffrenchkitt_xeaebzv6.gif&hash=5f419eca28783e3cbc18981eb30c736e03c8b69d)
[close]

I hadn't really seen you misusing your administrative powers ever, I mean, slap a ban on someone random in the thread and I'll be more than happy to edit you into the OP.

I have.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Carolus. on January 28, 2013, 12:53:14 am
You're my hero Hekko..
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hader on January 28, 2013, 01:01:04 am
I have to say I'm still slightly confused after reading this whole thread. But get the general gist of discontent.

I've been a NA admin for some time now though in recent months I really haven't been on the servers at all. Hopefully when I was more active my admining was fine by the community. But that's besides the point. I think.

I can't really say much since I have missed a lot it seems and just haven't been active enough in the community compared to so many others. But I have been part of moderation staff at Total War Center for about 6 years now and I've learned a lot about moderation, administration and community relations in that time. It's been the model of how I do just about anything requiring any small amount of skill from each. I can safely say to all a few things:

1) Posting anything irrelevant or stupid will only get you a similar response. I said I read this thread, I kinda lied, I read everything that wasn't a one liner or obvious crap. There are hardly a few pages worth of relevant posts in this thread.

2) I understand community managers are to come of this? Something like that at least. While such a thing sounds good in theory, it can also turn out to be more useless than the lack of the institution beforehand. So tread lightly and be calm and most importantly, respectful, regarding this.

Don't have much else to say. As I said, I am not all caught up to speed here. I will not voice support for one or another though, nor will I attack anyone's methods or words, though I can probably point out flaws if I took the time. My case in point: from all I've learned at TWC, don't let "revolution" nonsense go to your head, don't turn this into Team A vs Team B, and always look at one's argument as if they are fully in the right, lest you start acting more cynical than skeptical.

Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Millander on January 28, 2013, 01:40:58 am
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F25.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m9liq9zvgL1rxn2lko1_1280.jpg&hash=14c8fd5caf13202d49234f9423d1fb40b47b493f)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Johnston on January 28, 2013, 01:43:53 am
long live Hekko you sexy beast
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Offizer on January 28, 2013, 02:58:05 am
100% Support from me, would love to see some change, especially the North-American side.

What do you mean?

Well from what I've seen I have noticed that the NA admining on US-1 is not/has not been up-to-par as EU-1 has for the pass few months or so. Now, perhaps I am a little biased upon wanting change on more of the NA side (I'm an NA player, but used to and prefer EU servers), but overall I never liked the "atmosphere" of US-1 compared to EU-1, both amongst the admins and regular players as well. That probably cannot be changed with the average players but I expect just a little better from the administration. And I could bring up some examples of past faultly admining but I'd rather not atm....
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Savolainen5 on January 28, 2013, 03:21:54 am
100% Support from me, would love to see some change, especially the North-American side.

What do you mean?

Well from what I've seen I have noticed that the NA admining on US-1 is not/has not been up-to-par as EU-1 has for the pass few months or so. Now, perhaps I am a little biased upon wanting change on more of the NA side (I'm an NA player, but used to and prefer EU servers), but overall I never liked the "atmosphere" of US-1 compared to EU-1, both amongst the admins and regular players as well. That probably cannot be changed with the average players but I expect just a little better from the administration. And I could bring up some examples of past faultly admining but I'd rather not atm....

Up-to-par in what regard?  Get into the details, if you please, because I want to know why people think this.

I've heard people write that it's too strict now, with admins punishing for the least offence (especially new ones), but is this not the case on the EU servers? The difference, as I've perceived it (which means that I may be wrong), is that on the EU servers, there are fewer people who break the rules and/or more respect for the rules. Which means that the admins have to do less work. On US_1, you cannot go through a map without someone at the very least intentionally teamwounding, or some sort of slur being said. It's crazy.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 28, 2013, 03:26:07 am
I would say this has reached the end of it's revolution and should be locked.
Un-needed drama this community really doesn't need.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: tico13 on January 28, 2013, 03:31:03 am
I'm just here to linebattle.  8)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Odysseus on January 28, 2013, 03:31:16 am
I would say this has reached the end of it's revolution and should be locked.
Un-needed drama this community really doesn't need.
+1 we've all said our parts, now let's move on.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Mad_man1 on January 28, 2013, 03:39:08 am
It´s a very good point that admin should be held accountable for their actions and should lead by example all times, but regarding the community i must say it´s one of the best i ever been a part of ! I also think this 'community representative' thing don´t need to be done, all that expected from FSE is to choose admin based on merit, never allow complacency and support the community like we support you ! Nobody want to see FSE go wrong, we want to see FSE succeed, so be accountable for what you do ,admit to your faults and promise to never do it again and then we can move forward ! But remember FSE need our support otherwise it very difficult to improve the situation
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Salcos on January 28, 2013, 04:40:13 am
I would say this has reached the end of it's revolution and should be locked.
Un-needed drama this community really doesn't need.

Well Said Xeroth, We really don't need anymore of this
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Thundersnow on January 28, 2013, 04:59:38 am
So after reading all this....what you're saying is....people should be not be allowed to fire while charging.




PS:  I painted this just for this thread.  I hope you enjoy!  I've titled it "Heartless".



(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.surviveforever.com%2Fimg%2FABOOSE.png&hash=815919ad7e405697c14be8362938522be8bf8975)
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Sleek on January 28, 2013, 05:03:44 am
ALL HAIL LORD THUNDERSNOW
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 28, 2013, 05:22:52 am
Lol, this is why I love you Thundersnow. :D

ALL HAIL THE MAJESTIC GALACTIC OVERLORD!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Bianco on January 28, 2013, 05:30:06 am
You have my sword.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Ser Elliott on January 28, 2013, 05:32:00 am
And my bow.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Coconut on January 28, 2013, 05:32:28 am
AND MY AXE!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Millander on January 28, 2013, 05:34:08 am
and my BAYOONETTZ/
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 28, 2013, 05:34:17 am
And MY...

Spoiler
(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fe%2Fe4%2FLemon.jpg&hash=9b658867f09247f510acd90e051cea0476c699c3)
[close]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Japan on January 28, 2013, 05:36:07 am
Spoiler
So after reading all this....what you're saying is....people should be not be allowed to fire while charging.




PS:  I painted this just for this thread.  I hope you enjoy!  I've titled it "Heartless".



(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.surviveforever.com%2Fimg%2FABOOSE.png&hash=815919ad7e405697c14be8362938522be8bf8975)
[close]
This game an idea to make something scary.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Coconut on January 28, 2013, 05:36:14 am
So after reading all this....what you're saying is....people should be not be allowed to fire while charging.




PS:  I painted this just for this thread.  I hope you enjoy!  I've titled it "Heartless".



(https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.surviveforever.com%2Fimg%2FABOOSE.png&hash=815919ad7e405697c14be8362938522be8bf8975)
That picture is so deep, the Prussians represent the community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Bianco on January 28, 2013, 05:45:48 am
(https://i.imgur.com/XBHBLz0.jpg)

I made a picture too
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Sleek on January 28, 2013, 05:47:35 am
NOTHING COMPARES TO OVERLORD THUNDERSNOW  >:(
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Thunderstormer on January 28, 2013, 06:02:53 am
I'll give you my... Nose my Lord.  It's the only thing I have.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Mad_man1 on January 28, 2013, 06:10:49 am
I would just like to respond to this :

Alright, I know this is mostly a EU thing, but I feel this needs to be posted, because all of you are really starting to annoy me. I will also like to say that I am posting this as me and not an official admin. 

Okay, before I discuss about anything else I would like to get the thing that bothers me most out of the way.
Quote
I have not that much experience with the US administrative policy, some of the recent choices make me wonder though how the American side chooses admins, and from what I have heard from other admins that play on US1 at times as well, is that some of the new US1 admins are tripping balls with their new adminpowers, waiting for opportunities to flex their strength for the least offence.

Who the fuck are you to talk about the US administration when not a single admin I have spoke to has ever seen you on US1 before. As far as I am concerned, you have absolutely no place to talk about the US admin team. I feel sorry for the EU admin team that you are even acting this way while being an admin. In case you have forgotten, which you clearly have not since you talk so much about the professionalism administration is so important, you are acting completely out of line in accordance to admin regulations. I hope that someone sane enough sees that you are in no shape to hold the responsibility of admin, if you cannot even keep yourself professional in public. The same thing could be said about the EU admin team, but at least we have the respect to not talk about it in public, and rather keep it through PMs like we are supposed to do. The way you have presented yourself in this thread immediately shows me that you have no concern for the community and rather you wish to bash everyone you can possibly think of something to bash them about, for your own personal "Internet glory". This is absolutely unacceptable.

Now to address everyone rather than just the OP.

Have you all lost your minds?! We are playing a GAME this is not a bloody government! I don't care how many people know you in a online game that has no point at all in the world except to give others enjoyment. We are not building some kind of internet social hierarchy. Nobody is better than someone else. None of you have any right to tell FSE what to do with the community, and FSE has no right to tell the community to do. All you guys are doing is arguing over the most pointless in meaningless things in this life. This game is not real life. I can honestly and shamelessly say that Napoleonic Wars and Warband have been a enormous part of my life. Especially this past year. I spend hours a day playing and admining US1, so everyone can enjoy the game like it should be. I probably play more than just about 95% of the players. I spend countless hours of my free-time on this game and NEVER have I feet any amount of importance to anything. You should not either. I think we could all agree that Diplex is the most known NW player. That does not make him some kind of spokesperson or official. It does not make him any more important than you or I. So those of you acting as though you are some kind of icon and that if you say something FSE should listen and respond, you are completely out of your mind. You all are starting to disgust and annoy me with your constant rants and crying like children about how FSE is not doing things right with the community. FSE did not make the freaking community, you guys did. FSE made the game. You...Us. we made this community, and anything we feel is wrong, is our fault. Leave FSE alone about the community. Yes, they may have had some out there business practices with the community, but I think they have since learned. If you feel so strongly about FSE, going on THEIR forums and basically calling them useless is not going to solve anything. FSE is ABSOLUTELY taking the right path by telling you guys to pm all concerns to them. They DO deal with them. Just because something is not done the way you want it does not mean you have a right to decry the developers of this wonderful game, who were kind enough to give you a game for a cheap price that has stayed with you for such a long time. You cannot deny that you like this game, if you are so concerned about the community around it.

So in conclusion of what I have asked of you guys, please, for the sake of all of us, stop making fools of yourselves and just enjoy the damn game, and if you feel you can no longer find enjoyment in it, stop playing it. Nobody is making you play this game, and you all need to grow up and realize that.

If one of the developers or lead admins finds what I posted is wrong, I will gladly step down, because at least I might actually be able to enjoy the game without people acting as if I am some sort of idol. I just want to play and enjoy the game, I don't want people to watch and critique my every move.

You have shown to everyone that you don´t have the judgmental skills required of an admin and aren´t fit for the job !
You should be the first to go !
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 28, 2013, 06:32:02 am
Hello.

1. That particular case has been closed for over 4 hours.

2. Nobody except those already in the leading admin positions can really decide who is fit for adminship and who is not, as they are the ones who know best.

3. Cruch has (if you had actually read the responses on this thread) stated multiple times that he has resigned from adminship.

It would do you well not to blurt out such things in such a manner.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Rogov on January 28, 2013, 06:40:29 am
Well, I read Hekko's post and skimmed the rest (unfortunately having to sift through all that mindless +1, viva la revolution, you win one free internet, etc. drivel, c'mon guys) and am dumbfounded. I know I'm late to the party, but I'll throw in my two cents.

This has seemingly sprung out of nowhere and caught me completely off guard. Maybe I'm out of the loop (completely possible, as the Prussian Army tends to keep to ourselves), but I was largely unaware of these issues and in my eyes this has been blown completely out of proportion.

While Hekko presents some valid arguments, they could have been presented in a less inflammatory and preferably a more private manner. All this has accomplished so far is to widen the rift in our community (whose existence I, and I'm sure many others, weren't even aware of), and to incite the more immature and/or confrontational among us to hop on the band wagon as it were, and proceed to perpetuate this needless drama.

I've honestly never had a problem with an admin on the official servers and I'm all for strictness where it is called for. I generally hop on the public servers to relax after my classes, before starting on homework and such, and I'd rather not have to deal with children and/or immature "adults" antagonizing the admins and calling each other derogatory things like fa***t and n****r while I'm doing that. I'd hardly call it heavy handed. Behave on the public servers and you'll be fine. While admittedly I haven't been around as long as some, I've been playing on the official servers for about a year and a half and have yet to be warned by an admin, let alone banned.

As to the administration of the FSE (and Taleworlds) forums themselves, I think there are a couple of things which should be noted.

1. The Devs are busy people and have a bit more on their plates than just babysitting these forums. Much better in my opinion, to preemptively shut down potentially problematic threads and individuals before issues arise, rather than having to waste time moderating them down the road.

2. These guys aren't necessarily professionals when it comes to administrating forums. As has been stated, they are first and foremost coders, modelers, and the like. They are admins merely because it is their responsibility. That does not mean they are and should be inherently adept at the task.

3. Sure there have been a couple of terrible admins, but c'est la vie. You're gonna have shitheads wherever you go (and particularly so on the internet). Pinning the blame on the team as a whole is hardly fair.

4. In regards to nepotism, I'm really not all that surprised. It occurs everywhere to varying degrees and in a place like these forums, where the community is based solely upon the relationships and personal ties between individuals, it's inevitable. There's just no way to organize a complete meritocracy in this environment and FSE is going to appoint people they know and trust. Whether or not that trust is well-founded is another matter altogether.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, cut the team some slack. Do you think you or anyone else could do any better if placed in the same situation?

And please, everyone, stop acting like FSE is hell bent on oppressing you. I'm sure their primary objective is the alienation of their playerbase and potential customers. ::)

While some mismanagement has occurred and there are definitely issues to be addressed, this thread has done nothing but blow these things completely out of proportion, and these issues have unfortunately been manipulated by some (both willingly and unwillingly) to create divisions within the community. All I hope is that this can all be resolved in the most civil manner possible and without irreparable damage to the community.

Oh and one last thing. It was entirely uncalled for (and poor form) to insult the quality of the game (or DLC rather). That has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand and introduces a degree of bias to the argument. It's unfortunate that people are still upset about paying for the DLC, the melee changes, what have you, but it has no place here. It merely adds insult to injury and further alienates you from FSE. Same goes for any comments in regards to FSE's competency at running a business. Please, let's keep this about the community, not the game or the company.

That turned out much longer than expected, guess I'll be working later than I thought tonight. :-\

I know I'm in the minority here, and will likely take some flak for this, but I've got a busy week ahead of me so don't expect me to respond for a while. In other words, I'm a sitting duck! ;D






 
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Mad_man1 on January 28, 2013, 06:55:04 am
3. Cruch has (if you had actually read the responses on this thread) stated multiple times that he has resigned from adminship.

Excellent !
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hugonaut on January 28, 2013, 07:47:38 am
#firstworldproblems
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Spearing on January 28, 2013, 07:59:07 am
Who am I, but an old player of MM since pre-Prussia, the retired leader of one of MM/NW's oldest groups, and a continuing contributor to the NW community, to include my opinion (as everyone else has before me, without restraint mind you), but I feel inclined as per popular trends induced by this thread but to say what I think...


Hekko has some good points. I, personally, think his evaluation was quite fair. Obviously, any sort of public outburst like this is going to be a little... clunky, at best, and it'll never be as smooth and political as it should be, but the core idea is fair. I think that there just needs to be more common sense with the community. People are happy when everyone understands. What people don't understand, they don't like. McEwan, as I read on one of the pages waaaay back, has a point. There, truth be told, are a lot of good points, and a lot of misinformed points.

I think the generalization of the US admin team was.... eh..... poorly said. It's ill-placed, and there should of been less of a discrimination between the EU and the US admins in the overall message. It shows a few things, which I'll get onto later. But still, it was poorly said. I do think, however, that what the Steam chat showed with the conversation between you, Hekko, and Praetorian was very, very disturbing. I honestly have to agree: if FSE is a company, and they host official servers, and then chooses a group of people to administrate them, then it's only logical for someone who does not visit these forums daily to think that these admins are official representatives of FSE. Honestly, I thought the admins were basic spokespeople for FSE.


That being said, I honestly don't understand what Praetorian was saying, which in a nutshell (to me, anywho) was him saying a disclaimer: that the admins of FSE servers do not specifically represent the ideals of FSE as a whole. This is.... awkward. If you give someone that sort of power to ban people from company-sponsored servers, then you really should be sure that they're representative of your ideals, and that you are on the same page with them as they are with you, or else this sort of debacle can ensue.

Now for the 15e bit: From what I'm reading, Vince is basically making it his ruling that he doesn't want another sort of admin monopoly or something like what happened in ooooooold MM. Eh, it makes sense, but to be fair, most of the admin team knows one another, and truth be told, most of the people I've seen become admins are admins because they have friends on the team itself. So, logically, if you want to uphold that sort of argument about 15e members or whatnot, you'd also have to say that prospective admins have to be dark horses in order for their morals to be legitimate and not compromised.

As for the 51st thing, I have no comment other than how disappointing that is.


Now: onto the bit I mentioned earlier, about the discrimination between EU and US admin teams.

Personal experience shows the most effective way to moderate anything is to have a baseline. I'm not an admin, nor am I in on anything of what the special rules are bar what the official rules of the servers are, but truthfully, if Hekko makes such a distinction between the US & EU admin teams, then it's quite clear that there obviously is a rift. I don't know what it is, but it's probably something like the teams being separated by both this sort of stereotypical generalizations and the logical argument of "time zones get in the way". The latter is realistic, but the former is obnoxious. I say that honestly, this post shows the divide among admins, not just on the core issue, which is the apparent and very inadmissible case of the community's mismanagement, but also the fact that you can see the divide between the admin teams.


What, honestly, is the difference between the EU and the NA teams that makes so much strife? I agree with McEwan, that truth be told, there shouldn't be any divide at all. There should only be the separation of teams in the sense that you need different times because of time-zones. That's fine, but honestly: are the rules for NW_NA and NW_EU really so different? It's the same thing you're enforcing, unless there's like some sort of fine-print rule that no one reads, like "thou shalt not use the symbol % in chat" or something. What divides you all so much that the strife is so apparent? This generalization that NA admins are all power-hungry or something is really rude. It's no wonder there's a divide. Then again, this mismanagement of admin powers on both sides further causes a rift.

If anything is to be taken out of this, it should not be anger, or strife. It should be resolve. Resolve to evolve and adapt. I've seen a lot of NW administrators respond in either support or against, with a large amount of NA admins getting rather disgruntled due to Hekko's comments on the NA admin team.


If the admins have some form of common sense, or at least a basic form of wit, then they could use this to work as a more efficient machine. Hekko's pointed out the flaws. Hekko's pointed out the basic cracks in the skin of the machine. Now fill them. Don't get angry, get constructive. There is nothing that can be done to un-do this original thread. It's been posted, and if it's deleted, I doubt another can of political worms will not be opened. The only thing to do from here on out is to work to fix the issues which have caused such strife. NA and EU should work together. Say what you will, but if you say that they already do, then why is there a large amount of NA admins saying things about Hekko, and vice versa?


I expect this'll blow over. Either Vince will ignore it, or smite everyone (likely including me, sadly) who went with the flow of "viva la revolution" and the calls for blood, or Vince will respond to it. If he responds, I expect it to be a large disclaimer. A blanket statement that'll calm everyone down for a bit, until something else pops up. The real thing to watch for after this is if Vince says there will be change, and if any change is spoken about, if it actually happens.


My actual opinion, no matter what side it's on, is this. I'm interested to see how this turns out: https://www.fsegames.eu/forum/index.php?topic=2661.0

It'll either end up being paid attention to, and the community will thrive, or it'll become the old MM suggestion board: a place that the devs say they'll check on daily and work with, and in the end it's just a shouting pit for anyone who has a grievance, with it's only function being to give the dev's an alibi when asked why they did not deal with a certain problem.



Check back on this community ~5 months from now to see if anythings changed. If not, necro this thread.


TL;DR 8/10 would read again.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 28, 2013, 08:21:05 am
3. Cruch has (if you had actually read the responses on this thread) stated multiple times that he has resigned from adminship.

Excellent !

Oh, shut up. Crunch was if not the best, one of the best NA admins.
Its a great loss to have him resign. McEwan best NA though
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 28, 2013, 08:23:33 am
Well said on the server admin topic, Spearing.

Hekko did indeed have some good general points. I just wish that the very idea of making this very thread was cast from Hekko's mind before he could even comprehend it. So many things could have been avoided...

(I will post my full opinion on this only if someone asks me in a respectful and inquisitive way, for I do not wish to start another flame war.)

EDIT: Oh Xeroth, you outdid yourself... ::)
But I agree. Losing Crunch serves a nasty blow to me.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 28, 2013, 08:25:02 am
#McEwan 2012

Edit: 2013*  >:(
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Rogov on January 28, 2013, 08:34:03 am
I'd just like to add (in light of the news of Crunch's resignation) that I never had a problem with him as an admin.

He was generally amiable, conversed with the players (I know, who cares, but it was a nice touch), and responded appropriately to those who broke the rules, particularly in regards to teamkilling and profanity. The only flaw I can think of was that he was occasionally prone to anger when provoked by a trollish player.

Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 28, 2013, 08:37:01 am
I tried to convince him in to taking back his choice and staying an admin, but it seems he also wants to play NW without the constant bother of trolling and unorthodox behavior. It will be a deep blow to the North American staff, I believe.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 28, 2013, 08:40:24 am
I'd like to apologize to Crunch for my words earlier today. It was harsh and uncalled for, and I only get that way when I haven't had anything to eat and I have a lot of energy to work off. Now it's almost 3 in the morning and I'm sinking into that depressed thoughtful phase where I reflect on my day. Sorry m8
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Tali on January 28, 2013, 08:52:22 am
I've honestly never had a problem with an admin on the official servers and I'm all for strictness where it is called for. I generally hop on the public servers to relax after my classes, before starting on homework and such, and I'd rather not have to deal with children and/or immature "adults" antagonizing the admins and calling each other derogatory things like fa***t and n****r while I'm doing that. I'd hardly call it heavy handed. Behave on the public servers and you'll be fine. While admittedly I haven't been around as long as some, I've been playing on the official servers for about a year and a half and have yet to be warned by an admin, let alone banned.

My class starts in 5 minutes, so I only have time to respond to this.

The outrage agaisnt the admins in this thread has not been instigated by them banning "Children", as you described them, on the official servers, something, I dare say, a majority of people in here would stand by if it were to happen. No, It is because there has been people that has gotten extreme and unjust punishments for speaking out agaisnt the FSE Team.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Rogov on January 28, 2013, 09:00:16 am
I cover the forum admins in the section below that. That segment merely refers to the official NW servers.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: McEwan on January 28, 2013, 09:01:18 am
Well, after reading some people's responses, I have a few things to say.

First thing: Xeroth, you're a derpstein.

Second thing:
My class starts in 5 minutes, so I only have time to respond to this.

The outrage agaisnt the admins in this thread has not been instigated by them banning "Children", as you described them, on the official servers, something, I dare say, a majority of people in here would stand by if it were to happen. No, It is because there has been people that has gotten extreme and unjust punishments for speaking out agaisnt the FSE Team.

And those decisions had nothing to do with the US administration team, so kindly leave us out of that accusation.

Third thing:
On the topic of Hekko and the overall outcome of events today.
Spoiler
I don't care if someone has a different opinion than me. However I do care if that person is breaking forum policy and/or creating unnecessary disturbance in the community in order to voice that opinion, which is what Hekko did. He felt that making that thread and and in circumstance letting a literal riot start up was the only way the forum admins would listen to the community.

Whether it was his prime intention or not, Hekko did instigate a large disturbance on these forums, which entailed overly aggressive and argumentative posts, disrespectful attitudes and messages, and went as for to extend to hostile PMs and Steam messages, all of which go against the forum rules.

The most infuriating thing about the aftermath of Hekko's actions is that they could have been completely avoided. The forum admins were literally in the process of working out reformations to the forum and server policies when Hekko posted his thread. The changes would have been made clear to the community over the next week, and everything would have worked out nicely, or at least nicer than the outcome of Hekko's decision.

So in essence, the same outcome will be in place, but with a host of unnecessary drama and hostility between members and members and admins. A heart breaking rift has formed in this once happy community, forcing many to take sides. I have truly never seen anything like it, and it was all put to effect by yours truly.

And don't get me wrong; I've been wanting to see some changes in the way the forum admins and server admins work and behave in their duties for some time, probably really starting with the 51st event which is I guess where most people started their thinking. I am in the same critical mindset as Hekko. But nothing shocked me more than this thread. Before that, I thought the process was moving along at a relatively calm pace. Policies would be changed, the community would see them, perhaps negotiate a few things, and then after maybe a week or two the community would go on it's normal business, albeit with the new policies. Hekko knocked the whole thing off balance. The whole process was assimilated and toppled to the ground, and for what? So the forum admins could pry the information they already know out of the frothing sea of over-zealous "revolutionaries," disgustingly disrespectful messages, and a community in a virtual civil war?

No. I believe Hekko's general thoughts were on track. But there can be no argument against the fact that he almost tore this community to pieces. I have worked to make it a friendly place of friendly people, for people of the same interest, which is why we're all here in the first place. This community is something I have been a part of for almost 2 years, and seeing it in its current state is like a stab to my heart.
[close]
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 28, 2013, 09:08:45 am
Well, after reading some people's responses, I have a few things to say.

First thing: Xeroth, you're a derpstein.

Second thing:
My class starts in 5 minutes, so I only have time to respond to this.

The outrage agaisnt the admins in this thread has not been instigated by them banning "Children", as you described them, on the official servers, something, I dare say, a majority of people in here would stand by if it were to happen. No, It is because there has been people that has gotten extreme and unjust punishments for speaking out agaisnt the FSE Team.

And those decisions had nothing to do with the US administration team, so kindly leave us out of that accusation.

Third thing:
On the topic of Hekko and the overall outcome of events today.
Spoiler
I don't care if someone has a different opinion than me. However I do care if that person is breaking forum policy and/or creating unnecessary disturbance in the community in order to voice that opinion, which is what Hekko did. He felt that making that thread and and in circumstance letting a literal riot start up was the only way the forum admins would listen to the community.

Whether it was his prime intention or not, Hekko did instigate a large disturbance on these forums, which entailed overly aggressive and argumentative posts, disrespectful attitudes and messages, and went as for to extend to hostile PMs and Steam messages, all of which go against the forum rules.

The most infuriating thing about the aftermath of Hekko's actions is that they could have been completely avoided. The forum admins were literally in the process of working out reformations to the forum and server policies when Hekko posted his thread. The changes would have been made clear to the community over the next week, and everything would have worked out nicely, or at least nicer than the outcome of Hekko's decision.

So in essence, the same outcome will be in place, but with a host of unnecessary drama and hostility between members and members and admins. A heart breaking rift has formed in this once happy community, forcing many to take sides. I have truly never seen anything like it, and it was all put to effect by yours truly.

And don't get me wrong; I've been wanting to see some changes in the way the forum admins and server admins work and behave in their duties for some time, probably really starting with the 51st event which is I guess where most people started their thinking. I am in the same critical mindset as Hekko. But nothing shocked me more than this thread. Before that, I thought the process was moving along at a relatively calm pace. Policies would be changed, the community would see them, perhaps negotiate a few things, and then after maybe a week or two the community would go on it's normal business, albeit with the new policies. Hekko knocked the whole thing off balance. The whole process was assimilated and toppled to the ground, and for what? So the forum admins could pry the information they already know out of the frothing sea of over-zealous "revolutionaries," disgustingly disrespectful messages, and a community in a virtual civil war?

No. I believe Hekko's general thoughts were on track. But there can be no argument against the fact that he almost tore this community to pieces. I have worked to make it a friendly place of friendly people, for people of the same interest, which is why we're all here in the first place. This community is something I have been a part of for almost 2 years, and seeing it in its current state is like a stab to my heart.
[close]

I am on my iPad, so I am in no position to type something so persuasive and truthful, for all I can say I agree 100000%. This was in needed drama that will scare this website. It was un needed and could have been easily avoided, the admins do care for us, and they do what they think is right. They don't intend to hurt anyone. (Vincenzo wants to hurt me though #jk)
This not only affected the community, but was a chain reaction to admins resigning and community members leaving. Painful.

Ps. I'm a derpstein
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 28, 2013, 09:23:12 am
Well, after reading some people's responses, I have a few things to say.

First thing: Xeroth, you're a derpstein.

Second thing:
My class starts in 5 minutes, so I only have time to respond to this.

The outrage agaisnt the admins in this thread has not been instigated by them banning "Children", as you described them, on the official servers, something, I dare say, a majority of people in here would stand by if it were to happen. No, It is because there has been people that has gotten extreme and unjust punishments for speaking out agaisnt the FSE Team.

And those decisions had nothing to do with the US administration team, so kindly leave us out of that accusation.

Third thing:
On the topic of Hekko and the overall outcome of events today.
Spoiler
I don't care if someone has a different opinion than me. However I do care if that person is breaking forum policy and/or creating unnecessary disturbance in the community in order to voice that opinion, which is what Hekko did. He felt that making that thread and and in circumstance letting a literal riot start up was the only way the forum admins would listen to the community.

Whether it was his prime intention or not, Hekko did instigate a large disturbance on these forums, which entailed overly aggressive and argumentative posts, disrespectful attitudes and messages, and went as for to extend to hostile PMs and Steam messages, all of which go against the forum rules.

The most infuriating thing about the aftermath of Hekko's actions is that they could have been completely avoided. The forum admins were literally in the process of working out reformations to the forum and server policies when Hekko posted his thread. The changes would have been made clear to the community over the next week, and everything would have worked out nicely, or at least nicer than the outcome of Hekko's decision.

So in essence, the same outcome will be in place, but with a host of unnecessary drama and hostility between members and members and admins. A heart breaking rift has formed in this once happy community, forcing many to take sides. I have truly never seen anything like it, and it was all put to effect by yours truly.

And don't get me wrong; I've been wanting to see some changes in the way the forum admins and server admins work and behave in their duties for some time, probably really starting with the 51st event which is I guess where most people started their thinking. I am in the same critical mindset as Hekko. But nothing shocked me more than this thread. Before that, I thought the process was moving along at a relatively calm pace. Policies would be changed, the community would see them, perhaps negotiate a few things, and then after maybe a week or two the community would go on it's normal business, albeit with the new policies. Hekko knocked the whole thing off balance. The whole process was assimilated and toppled to the ground, and for what? So the forum admins could pry the information they already know out of the frothing sea of over-zealous "revolutionaries," disgustingly disrespectful messages, and a community in a virtual civil war?

No. I believe Hekko's general thoughts were on track. But there can be no argument against the fact that he almost tore this community to pieces. I have worked to make it a friendly place of friendly people, for people of the same interest, which is why we're all here in the first place. This community is something I have been a part of for almost 2 years, and seeing it in its current state is like a stab to my heart.
[close]

You're funny. I think the complaints were against the US admins whacking out the purple chat far too easily. US admins tend to see adminship as an extension of their penis. Flexing of un-needed muscle.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 28, 2013, 09:27:35 am
Spoiler
Well, after reading some people's responses, I have a few things to say.
 ;)
First thing: Xeroth, you're a derpstein.

Second thing:
My class starts in 5 minutes, so I only have time to respond to this.

The outrage agaisnt the admins in this thread has not been instigated by them banning "Children", as you described them, on the official servers, something, I dare say, a majority of people in here would stand by if it were to happen. No, It is because there has been people that has gotten extreme and unjust punishments for speaking out agaisnt the FSE Team.

And those decisions had nothing to do with the US administration team, so kindly leave us out of that accusation.

Third thing:
On the topic of Hekko and the overall outcome of events today.
Spoiler
I don't care if someone has a different opinion than me. However I do care if that person is breaking forum policy and/or creating unnecessary disturbance in the community in order to voice that opinion, which is what Hekko did. He felt that making that thread and and in circumstance letting a literal riot start up was the only way the forum admins would listen to the community.

Whether it was his prime intention or not, Hekko did instigate a large disturbance on these forums, which entailed overly aggressive and argumentative posts, disrespectful attitudes and messages, and went as for to extend to hostile PMs and Steam messages, all of which go against the forum rules.

The most infuriating thing about the aftermath of Hekko's actions is that they could have been completely avoided. The forum admins were literally in the process of working out reformations to the forum and server policies when Hekko posted his thread. The changes would have been made clear to the community over the next week, and everything would have worked out nicely, or at least nicer than the outcome of Hekko's decision.

So in essence, the same outcome will be in place, but with a host of unnecessary drama and hostility between members and members and admins. A heart breaking rift has formed in this once happy community, forcing many to take sides. I have truly never seen anything like it, and it was all put to effect by yours truly.

And don't get me wrong; I've been wanting to see some changes in the way the forum admins and server admins work and behave in their duties for some time, probably really starting with the 51st event which is I guess where most people started their thinking. I am in the same critical mindset as Hekko. But nothing shocked me more than this thread. Before that, I thought the process was moving along at a relatively calm pace. Policies would be changed, the community would see them, perhaps negotiate a few things, and then after maybe a week or two the community would go on it's normal business, albeit with the new policies. Hekko knocked the whole thing off balance. The whole process was assimilated and toppled to the ground, and for what? So the forum admins could pry the information they already know out of the frothing sea of over-zealous "revolutionaries," disgustingly disrespectful messages, and a community in a virtual civil war?

No. I believe Hekko's general thoughts were on track. But there can be no argument against the fact that he almost tore this community to pieces. I have worked to make it a friendly place of friendly people, for people of the same interest, which is why we're all here in the first place. This community is something I have been a part of for almost 2 years, and seeing it in its current state is like a stab to my heart.
[close]

You're funny. I think the complaints were against the US admins whacking out the purple chat far too easily. US admins tend to see adminship as an extension of their penis. Flexing of un-needed muscle.
[close]

And accusing north American admins, yet I have never even seen you on. Offices NA server, makes you better? I have never seen a North American official server admin abuse, and I have been playing for quite a while. Proof please?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 28, 2013, 09:29:25 am
Spoiler
Well, after reading some people's responses, I have a few things to say.
 ;)
First thing: Xeroth, you're a derpstein.

Second thing:
My class starts in 5 minutes, so I only have time to respond to this.

The outrage agaisnt the admins in this thread has not been instigated by them banning "Children", as you described them, on the official servers, something, I dare say, a majority of people in here would stand by if it were to happen. No, It is because there has been people that has gotten extreme and unjust punishments for speaking out agaisnt the FSE Team.

And those decisions had nothing to do with the US administration team, so kindly leave us out of that accusation.

Third thing:
On the topic of Hekko and the overall outcome of events today.
Spoiler
I don't care if someone has a different opinion than me. However I do care if that person is breaking forum policy and/or creating unnecessary disturbance in the community in order to voice that opinion, which is what Hekko did. He felt that making that thread and and in circumstance letting a literal riot start up was the only way the forum admins would listen to the community.

Whether it was his prime intention or not, Hekko did instigate a large disturbance on these forums, which entailed overly aggressive and argumentative posts, disrespectful attitudes and messages, and went as for to extend to hostile PMs and Steam messages, all of which go against the forum rules.

The most infuriating thing about the aftermath of Hekko's actions is that they could have been completely avoided. The forum admins were literally in the process of working out reformations to the forum and server policies when Hekko posted his thread. The changes would have been made clear to the community over the next week, and everything would have worked out nicely, or at least nicer than the outcome of Hekko's decision.

So in essence, the same outcome will be in place, but with a host of unnecessary drama and hostility between members and members and admins. A heart breaking rift has formed in this once happy community, forcing many to take sides. I have truly never seen anything like it, and it was all put to effect by yours truly.

And don't get me wrong; I've been wanting to see some changes in the way the forum admins and server admins work and behave in their duties for some time, probably really starting with the 51st event which is I guess where most people started their thinking. I am in the same critical mindset as Hekko. But nothing shocked me more than this thread. Before that, I thought the process was moving along at a relatively calm pace. Policies would be changed, the community would see them, perhaps negotiate a few things, and then after maybe a week or two the community would go on it's normal business, albeit with the new policies. Hekko knocked the whole thing off balance. The whole process was assimilated and toppled to the ground, and for what? So the forum admins could pry the information they already know out of the frothing sea of over-zealous "revolutionaries," disgustingly disrespectful messages, and a community in a virtual civil war?

No. I believe Hekko's general thoughts were on track. But there can be no argument against the fact that he almost tore this community to pieces. I have worked to make it a friendly place of friendly people, for people of the same interest, which is why we're all here in the first place. This community is something I have been a part of for almost 2 years, and seeing it in its current state is like a stab to my heart.
[close]

You're funny. I think the complaints were against the US admins whacking out the purple chat far too easily. US admins tend to see adminship as an extension of their penis. Flexing of un-needed muscle.
[close]

And accusing north American admins, yet I have never even seen you on. Offices NA server, makes you better? I have never seen a North American official server admin abuse, and I have been playing for quite a while. Proof please?

I have other aliases; Fat_Eric, Sid and so-on. But you're right, I tend not to play on the US server as the vast majority of you beat your chest like a big old silver-back whilst trying to score up ban tallies.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 28, 2013, 09:33:00 am
If we, the NW community, are going to have any structure and relation left, this EU vs NA stuff needs to stop. We are one community. We come from across the world, from many backgrounds, but we all share the same interest: the Napoleonic Wars. That is why we're here. We are not here to bandy words and argue about who's better, because no one is better than anyone else. Sure, there may be those who are annoying, trollish, etc. etc. but if we become elitist and feel superior towards them, we make ourselves no better than they are. Play the game; enjoy each other's company; it really is an amazing thing that we can come together from such a distance, and that is what we should treasure and keep in our minds.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 28, 2013, 09:37:12 am
If we, the NW community, are going to have any structure and relation left, this EU vs NA stuff needs to stop. We are one community. We come from across the world, from many backgrounds, but we all share the same interest: the Napoleonic Wars. That is why we're here. We are not here to bandy words and argue about who's better, because no one is better than anyone else. Sure, there may be those who are annoying, trollish, etc. etc. but if we become elitist and feel superior towards them, we make ourselves no better than they are. Play the game; enjoy each other's company; it really is an amazing thing that we can come together from such a distance, and that is what we should treasure and keep in our minds.
NA and EU players don't really mix, and I am sure some regiments even ban NA players from joining at all or at least discourage it greatly. You're quote won't help you here, as it's idealistic and to be frank; wrong. Just like Crunch's resignation was also; wrong.

But do not think that I don't agree with the concept of it, I just find it about as practical as a chocolate fireplace.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Nipplestockings on January 28, 2013, 09:37:36 am
Lol, robin_hood, you're funny. I can't say I disagree with your arguments, but something about how you just materialized out of the blue a week ago and how literally every single one of your posts have been insulting in one way or another amuses me. Keep going though, we need more people who aren't afraid to represent the more radical stance on the issue, which is that the community is rotten to the core. I can't say I predict you'll be allowed to continue this way much longer though - people don't take kindly to harsh criticism.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Xeroth on January 28, 2013, 09:38:54 am
Doesn't hurt to hope..?

Hope : to cherish a desire with anticipation
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 28, 2013, 09:39:35 am
Lol, robin_hood, you're funny. I can't say I disagree with your arguments, but something about how you just materialized out of the blue a week ago and how literally every single one of your posts have been insulting in one way or another amuses me. Keep going though, we need more people who aren't afraid to represent the more radical stance on the issue, which is that the community in rotten to the core. I can't say I predict you'll be allowed to continue this way much longer though - people don't take kindly to harsh criticism.

Hey, I never made that weak sperm called Crunch resign, did I? That was you!

and P.S. I already got watched for telling Jacob he is a lump of turd for being a Benedict Arnold (applying for community rep when he voiced dissent in the thread).
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Creed on January 28, 2013, 09:40:19 am
If we, the NW community, are going to have any structure and relation left, this EU vs NA stuff needs to stop. We are one community. We come from across the world, from many backgrounds, but we all share the same interest: the Napoleonic Wars. That is why we're here. We are not here to bandy words and argue about who's better, because no one is better than anyone else. Sure, there may be those who are annoying, trollish, etc. etc. but if we become elitist and feel superior towards them, we make ourselves no better than they are. Play the game; enjoy each other's company; it really is an amazing thing that we can come together from such a distance, and that is what we should treasure and keep in our minds.
NA and EU players don't really mix, and I am sure some regiments even ban NA players from joining at all or at least discourage it greatly. You're quote won't help you here, as it's idealistic and to be frank; wrong. Just like Crunch's resignation was also; wrong.

But do not think that I don't agree with the concept of it, I just find it about as practical as a chocolate fireplace.

i find it understandable if EU regiments do not wish to have NA players in their regiments because of the time difference and the ping issues

Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Creed on January 28, 2013, 09:57:24 am
i feel that Hekko had every right to make his arguement public. if it was sent by PM to any of the FSE staff it would be taken lightly and forgotten in a couple of days. isnt this what the arguement is all about? the community having a voice when it comes to decision making instead of being left in the dark. now i agree that it is wrong how most admins earned there admin place because they simply were in the same regiment or friends with a admin but this should not instantly make them a bad admin. think of a real life situation where you got a job because your family was part of a business? would you be complaining. i dont have any grudges against any admins and i think they do a pretty good job most of the time but something needs to be changed. i dont think community representitives is a step in the right direction because they will most likely be chosen the same way as the admins and we wont be getting anywhere.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 28, 2013, 10:00:51 am
i feel that Hekko had every right to make his arguement public. if it was sent by PM to any of the FSE staff it would be taken lightly and forgotten in a couple of days. isnt this what the arguement is all about? the community having a voice when it comes to decision making instead of being left in the dark. now i agree that it is wrong how most admins earned there admin place because they simply were in the same regiment or friends with a admin but this should not instantly make them a bad admin. think of a real life situation where you got a job because your family was part of a business? would you be complaining. i dont have any grudges against any admins and i think they do a pretty good job most of the time but something needs to be changed. i dont think community representitives is a step in the right direction because they will most likely be chosen the same way as the admins and we wont be getting anywhere.

Not all admins earned their admin via being in regiments with other admins. Some got it for being active but others, as you quite rightly said; got their admin via decadent acts of self-disrespect or via the official channels of relentlessly kissing arse.

I  got my admin via being heavily active on duel server, Hekko got his via being Hekko and there are others who have also got their admin via merit and not due to having a gold-plated relationship with Del boy. I can't name a single admin who got it via merit who had a complaint against him, I really can't.

I suppose a chocolate bar that you've earned means a lot more than a chocolate bar given.

EDIT

Community rep's will not work unless they are given higher power than the head admins, and then again I suppose it will be rather humorous if the community vote in the wrong type and thus initiates it's own hardship. In fact I will say this: community rep is an extension of someone's phallus and boy will he swing it, just pray that he is batting for your team and not FSE's.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Creed on January 28, 2013, 10:07:31 am
yeah i didnt say all admins got their position based on ass kissing. i can think of one that got it on merit. he applied after everyone recommended he applied to admin as everyone thought he was a reasonable guy. since he got admin he hasnt been on reguarly which may be down to the melee side of the game sucking.

Edit: i think that maybe putting a trial system into place for the admin applications so that the community can see who they see fit to admin the server and not being picked because they are one of the "Cool Kids"
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Arthur Ney on January 28, 2013, 10:18:41 am
Lets keep it like this they got there money and now leave there community alone i miss MM and if there wile be a Server again of MM i will play on that we only have more Admin's more people leave the game because you wanted to change the melee, i bet the devs of NW don't even care anymore about the players and now you want to make your own game but we have to pay that !, i mean i don't ask if people wana pay my Game PC i think you guys should show some more respect to us
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 28, 2013, 10:21:10 am
Lets keep it like this they got there money and now leave there community alone i miss MM and if there wile be a Server again of MM i will play on that we only have more Admin's more people leave the game because you wanted to change the melee, i bet the devs of NW don't even care anymore about the players and now you want to make your own game but we have to pay that !, i mean i don't ask if people wana pay my Game PC i think you guys should show some more respect to us

Even though your reply was written and constructed badly, I do give full support to your claims and also think they should go back to leaving the community alone with limited intervention when it is actually needed. For example, removal of admins. If they do not do this they risk people grabbing their pitch forks again, especially if they pull another 51stgate (watergate).
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Rejenorst on January 28, 2013, 10:25:10 am
Ok I've read through Hekko's post, skim read the revolutionary + 1's :) and also looked at Death by EMP's post, some of the trolling and then Rogov's post and Spearing's post.

I suppose I'll give my thoughts to Hekko's post as best as I can.

I am finally fed up with the idiotic way this community is ran by. The way justice and bans are handled, the way threads and criticism is met, how people are promoted within the community and the hypocrisy of the top level leadership.

Justice is blind, it is often impossible to get a full fledged overview of how well certain admins do their job 24/7 and its difficult to always feel empathy or emotional sympathy for what players may be going through or for what is perceived as a ridiculous abuse of power.

Currently I play quite often on the Australian Servers and I swear every admin action that is taken whether reasonable or not (and the Aussie server Admins tend to be pretty reasonable) is met with an outcry of outrage by those on the sword end the received justice.  It therefore becomes pretty easy to decensortize yourself to the notion that every complaint has a significant amount of validity. P.S. I am not an admin on said servers.

Typically admins are loved by some and hated by others, just from looking through this thread the community is oft split in opinion as to the merit of individual admins. In any case admin abuse is something that can and should be reported but I suggest it is done so in a mature manner in order to be taken seriously.

Quote
Lets first discuss the current events. The choice to retire the 51st name, it was a ridiculous proposal and was both unpragmatic and unfair.

On the Australian servers; regimental names are protected and regiments must be unique in name from one another afaik by punishment of temp/perm ban (this is not an FSE thing but a LCC community rule which imo works well but may be unpragmatic or even unfair to impose as a whole). This is however intended to stop trolling of/in someone's regiment/regimental name in the LCC community, which is sadly a common occurrence amongst competitive regiments and it gets pretty damn ridiculous. While I agree that you have some legitimate concerns, (Afaik the 51st apparently had guys adorn the 51st regiment tags on servers for trolling purposes) and given that there may be the possibility of beta testing in the future with the 51st, I would be concerned if people outside the reg got in without permission or someone gave the 51st a bad name thus making the confidence in the testers for the FSE somewhat questionable during development.

In any case I am not saying that the decision to close the 51st is right or wrong but personally I can't seem to find my rage button over it especially when I see the level of ridiculous competitiveness, ages old pretty rivalries and jealousy amongst individual regiments flare up every other day.  On these forums alone I see a ton of reported posts because one regiment member is claiming that another regiment member has stolen either a) Thread resources, b) the regimental name c) guys from his/her regiment (stolen recruits etc) or d) is just plain trolling another regiment.

In the time that I've spent in the 1stAVR (formerly known as the 104th) I've seen some ridiculously immature actions and reactions from the community and various regiments and their members including my own.

Quote
The 51st are getting a special privilege for the sake of their contribution to the game. Lets get one thing straight, the reason the 51st has contributed to the dlc is because of the closed-shop nepotistic ways of the developers got help for it. I am sure that the mapping done by 51st members could just as well have been done by people from the 84e or the 1er etc, as long as they would have been granted the Chance to do so. What few people know is that the 51st during the beta actively impeded allot of testing by being hellbent on playing commanderbattle whenever more than 4 people were on. I came to the beta fairly late, yet still the game had a gamebreaking flaw of a fixed height up-stab, which meant that you could duck under the up-stab by holding in a downstab. However, since I didn't belong to the cool kids I was ignored at first when pointing out that this was a serious problem. Infact I was probably the most active poster about gameplay in the beta, and alto of the stuff I posted about has gotten implemented since, just that it took several months after the release for it to be done. Once again because I didn't belong to the cool kids.

Its difficult to find ways to repay community contributions. FSE has chosen to honor the 51st in its own way. Your argument is that the 51st a) do not merit such an honor b) your initial beta test point changes where ignored because you where not part of the cool kids and that advancement in FSE is based on favoritism/nepotism. Personally I am in no position to argue that the 51st deserved or did not deserve any honors but I don't believe you where ignored, rather that fixes don't always come overnight especially when your working to deadlines while attempting to prioritize key issues and not being able to fix a particular critical item in a short time frame. The issue you mentioned was eventually fixed in patches, while later-than-one would have wished, it was none-the-less fixed and not game-braking to begin with. As far as favoritism vs merit goes; I think your argument is valid in a professional context and I think that FSE is still very-much in the transition from a bunch of highly-skilled fun loving guys to a professional company that will hopefully one day employ more than just a few devs.   

While on the topic of professionalism however, Death by EMP did have a point. I can't see that you've raised this issue in the admin forums, if I am wrong then I take it back but I don't see any topics from you on this issue, instead you kind of went out of your way to vent your frustration directly to the community, which in turn has created a shit storm.  However, every cloud has its silver lining.

Perhaps, this is for the best momentarily, so that FSE can better gauge that the less it involves itself in the community or decisions pertaining to the community management, the better. I have suggested to Vince previously that FSE focuses on the work at hand rather than doing any micro managing of the community because the community tends to get easily excited/incensed over issues that may sometimes be deemed as trivial to some of us (given differing priorities and circumstances in life) but that will come across as being extremely rude to others and given the pace of development there is little time, as it is, to deal with shit storms.

Thus as far as admin oversight goes, FSE cannot always be in all places 24/7.
Anyway suffice to say a few changes are being made which will hopefully be for the better.








 


Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 28, 2013, 10:42:38 am
Its difficult to find ways to repay community contributions. FSE has chosen to honor the 51st in its own way. Your argument is that the 51st a) do not merit such an honor b) your initial beta test point changes where ignored because you where not part of the cool kids and that advancement in FSE is based on favoritism/nepotism. Personally I am in no position to argue that the 51st deserved or did not deserve any honors but I don't believe you where ignored, rather that fixes don't always come overnight especially when your working to deadlines while attempting to prioritize key issues and not being able to fix a particular critical item in a short time frame. The issue you mentioned was eventually fixed in patches, while later-than-one would have wished, it was none-the-less fixed and not game-braking to begin with. As far as favoritism vs merit goes; I think your argument is valid in a professional context and I think that FSE is still very-much in the transition from a bunch of highly-skilled fun loving guys to a professional company that will hopefully one day employ more than just a few devs.   
I more or less agree on pretty much all your points, except this one. The 51st has not really contributed to NW. They contributed to MM, but I did not see them host any real events in NW nor regularly frequent the in-game servers. They chose to switch to another game and I guess it is because they did not enjoy NW as much as the other game. So why honour people for their contribution to a game they do not even play in any more.
I do not have a problem with them being beta-testers, since in my opinion the more the merrier. If more people test it, then the game will be created to the liking of more people. Yet, saying they were chosen as beta-testers for their contribution is kind of slighting for the actually active people, who love this game and play it a lot and are thankful for it.
They can be beta-testers for all I care, but not because of the reason that they contributed and no, this is not the 91st member speaking, because I fully agree on your point concerning retarded regimental fewds. I am merely trying to show that credit should be given where it is deserved.

EDIT: This is concerning the regimental name and the special status, which has actually already been resolved.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 28, 2013, 10:44:17 am
Its difficult to find ways to repay community contributions. FSE has chosen to honor the 51st in its own way. Your argument is that the 51st a) do not merit such an honor b) your initial beta test point changes where ignored because you where not part of the cool kids and that advancement in FSE is based on favoritism/nepotism. Personally I am in no position to argue that the 51st deserved or did not deserve any honors but I don't believe you where ignored, rather that fixes don't always come overnight especially when your working to deadlines while attempting to prioritize key issues and not being able to fix a particular critical item in a short time frame. The issue you mentioned was eventually fixed in patches, while later-than-one would have wished, it was none-the-less fixed and not game-braking to begin with. As far as favoritism vs merit goes; I think your argument is valid in a professional context and I think that FSE is still very-much in the transition from a bunch of highly-skilled fun loving guys to a professional company that will hopefully one day employ more than just a few devs.   
I more or less agree on pretty much all your points, except this one. The 51st has not really contributed to NW. They contributed to MM, but I did not see them host any real events in NW nor regularly frequent the in-game servers. They chose to switch to another game and I guess it is because they did not enjoy NW as much as the other game. So why honour people for their contribution to a game they do not even play in any more.
I do not have a problem with them being beta-testers, since in my opinion the more the merrier. If more people test it, then the game will be created to the liking of more people. Yet, saying they were chosen as beta-testers for their contribution is kind of slighting for the actually active peopl, who love this game and play it a lot and are thankful for it.
They can be beta-testers for all I care, but not because of the reason that they contributed and no, this is not the 91st member speaking, because I fully agree on your point concerning retarded regimental fewds. I am merely trying to show that credit should be given where it is deserved.

Hi Jackie, you are so right here.

But allow me to go further and say they did not contribute to MM either. Their activity was in the first year of MM and after that, well, they no longer existed except for a few mentionings of Fortune, Deathstar, MrTikki and Refleax.

The previous is what really grinded my gears about the whole situation.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 28, 2013, 10:48:38 am
Its difficult to find ways to repay community contributions. FSE has chosen to honor the 51st in its own way. Your argument is that the 51st a) do not merit such an honor b) your initial beta test point changes where ignored because you where not part of the cool kids and that advancement in FSE is based on favoritism/nepotism. Personally I am in no position to argue that the 51st deserved or did not deserve any honors but I don't believe you where ignored, rather that fixes don't always come overnight especially when your working to deadlines while attempting to prioritize key issues and not being able to fix a particular critical item in a short time frame. The issue you mentioned was eventually fixed in patches, while later-than-one would have wished, it was none-the-less fixed and not game-braking to begin with. As far as favoritism vs merit goes; I think your argument is valid in a professional context and I think that FSE is still very-much in the transition from a bunch of highly-skilled fun loving guys to a professional company that will hopefully one day employ more than just a few devs.   
I more or less agree on pretty much all your points, except this one. The 51st has not really contributed to NW. They contributed to MM, but I did not see them host any real events in NW nor regularly frequent the in-game servers. They chose to switch to another game and I guess it is because they did not enjoy NW as much as the other game. So why honour people for their contribution to a game they do not even play in any more.
I do not have a problem with them being beta-testers, since in my opinion the more the merrier. If more people test it, then the game will be created to the liking of more people. Yet, saying they were chosen as beta-testers for their contribution is kind of slighting for the actually active peopl, who love this game and play it a lot and are thankful for it.
They can be beta-testers for all I care, but not because of the reason that they contributed and no, this is not the 91st member speaking, because I fully agree on your point concerning retarded regimental fewds. I am merely trying to show that credit should be given where it is deserved.

Hi Jackie, you are so right here.

But allow me to go further and say they did not contribute to MM either. Their activity was in the first year of MM and after that, well, they no longer existed except for a few mentionings of Fortune, Deathstar and MrTikki.

The previous is what really grinded my gears about the whole situation.
Indeed, but at least they hosted events or joined them and participated in linebattles etc.. This is what I meant with contributing. I didn't mean that the contribution was huge and I am not saying that it was not huge, merely that they did contribute.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 28, 2013, 10:50:36 am
Its difficult to find ways to repay community contributions. FSE has chosen to honor the 51st in its own way. Your argument is that the 51st a) do not merit such an honor b) your initial beta test point changes where ignored because you where not part of the cool kids and that advancement in FSE is based on favoritism/nepotism. Personally I am in no position to argue that the 51st deserved or did not deserve any honors but I don't believe you where ignored, rather that fixes don't always come overnight especially when your working to deadlines while attempting to prioritize key issues and not being able to fix a particular critical item in a short time frame. The issue you mentioned was eventually fixed in patches, while later-than-one would have wished, it was none-the-less fixed and not game-braking to begin with. As far as favoritism vs merit goes; I think your argument is valid in a professional context and I think that FSE is still very-much in the transition from a bunch of highly-skilled fun loving guys to a professional company that will hopefully one day employ more than just a few devs.   
I more or less agree on pretty much all your points, except this one. The 51st has not really contributed to NW. They contributed to MM, but I did not see them host any real events in NW nor regularly frequent the in-game servers. They chose to switch to another game and I guess it is because they did not enjoy NW as much as the other game. So why honour people for their contribution to a game they do not even play in any more.
I do not have a problem with them being beta-testers, since in my opinion the more the merrier. If more people test it, then the game will be created to the liking of more people. Yet, saying they were chosen as beta-testers for their contribution is kind of slighting for the actually active peopl, who love this game and play it a lot and are thankful for it.
They can be beta-testers for all I care, but not because of the reason that they contributed and no, this is not the 91st member speaking, because I fully agree on your point concerning retarded regimental fewds. I am merely trying to show that credit should be given where it is deserved.

Hi Jackie, you are so right here.

But allow me to go further and say they did not contribute to MM either. Their activity was in the first year of MM and after that, well, they no longer existed except for a few mentionings of Fortune, Deathstar and MrTikki.

The previous is what really grinded my gears about the whole situation.
Indeed, but at least they hosted events or joined them and participated in linebattles etc.. This is what I meant with contributing. I didn't mean that the contribution was huge and I am not saying that it was not huge, merely that they did contribute.

The contribution was minuscule compared to the likes of 91st, 92nd(yeah, I said it; thank the members not the leader), 84e, 1er and much more. These regiments were the 'community', 51st did not even apply to fit into such a term :L.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: JackieChan on January 28, 2013, 11:04:11 am
Just to prove a point:
http://www.youtube.com/user/The51stRegiment/videos?view=0 (http://www.youtube.com/user/The51stRegiment/videos?view=0)
The last video the 51st uploaded was 8 months ago. Of course they do not need to upload videos the entire time and I think they were a bit active even after the last video, but I doubt they'd have never recorded anything, if they'd still have been active.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Rejenorst on January 28, 2013, 11:07:34 am
Its difficult to find ways to repay community contributions. FSE has chosen to honor the 51st in its own way. Your argument is that the 51st a) do not merit such an honor b) your initial beta test point changes where ignored because you where not part of the cool kids and that advancement in FSE is based on favoritism/nepotism. Personally I am in no position to argue that the 51st deserved or did not deserve any honors but I don't believe you where ignored, rather that fixes don't always come overnight especially when your working to deadlines while attempting to prioritize key issues and not being able to fix a particular critical item in a short time frame. The issue you mentioned was eventually fixed in patches, while later-than-one would have wished, it was none-the-less fixed and not game-braking to begin with. As far as favoritism vs merit goes; I think your argument is valid in a professional context and I think that FSE is still very-much in the transition from a bunch of highly-skilled fun loving guys to a professional company that will hopefully one day employ more than just a few devs.   
I more or less agree on pretty much all your points, except this one. The 51st has not really contributed to NW. They contributed to MM, but I did not see them host any real events in NW nor regularly frequent the in-game servers. They chose to switch to another game and I guess it is because they did not enjoy NW as much as the other game. So why honour people for their contribution to a game they do not even play in any more.
I do not have a problem with them being beta-testers, since in my opinion the more the merrier. If more people test it, then the game will be created to the liking of more people. Yet, saying they were chosen as beta-testers for their contribution is kind of slighting for the actually active people, who love this game and play it a lot and are thankful for it.
They can be beta-testers for all I care, but not because of the reason that they contributed and no, this is not the 91st member speaking, because I fully agree on your point concerning retarded regimental fewds. I am merely trying to show that credit should be given where it is deserved.

EDIT: This is concerning the regimental name and the special status, which has actually already been resolved.

Like I said; I am not in a position to state that the 51st warrants an honor for its merits or not. I don't think I really know any of its members that well with exception of Refleax (if he's even in the 51st I just saw it being mentioned earlier), I know he has put in some hard yards and has been really great to have around.

Ultimately though, whether FSE chooses to acknowledge the merit  of someone/some regiment, is, to me at least, not such a big issue. If FSE wants to ascribe merit and show their gratitude to someone then that's their choice and they're in the best position to know how that individual or regiment helped them out when it was most needed. The more valid issue to me, perhaps; is the admin selection criteria because it affects the gaming experience of customers. This is perhaps something well worth reflecting on or well worth investigating for FSE for future reference.

EDIT: Not to mention the idea of minimizing community management.

Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Craig on January 28, 2013, 11:37:33 am
I was reading through this thread last night, some very good points made, I'm just sad that you all agree with Hekko now, yet myself, Daniel and Biggun were all banned for saying the same things, just not in a post. But regardless I'm glad that you all have shown your support for Hekko as I do. I'd just like to say one more thing, and publicy because if the community wants change you need complete change and now just community representatives, I would publicly request that Daniel and Biggun are also unbanned from FSE. They have done no more than me yet they remain unbanned, I am aware of Vince's personal Vendetta against Daniel, and I am also aware that he was gathering a list of things to have him banned, this is unprofessional and exactly the opposite direction of where FSE should want to go. Please can Daniel and Biggun be unbanned like I have.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Rejenorst on January 28, 2013, 11:46:56 am
As far as I am aware Biggun and Daniel did more than just post their opinions and while I am sure that there are plenty of cases where the admins/devs may have overreacted, I am pretty certain there was no overreaction in regards to Biggun and Daniel.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Craig on January 28, 2013, 11:51:18 am
As far as I am aware Biggun and Daniel did more than just post their opinions and while I am sure that there are plenty of cases where the admins/devs may have overreacted, I am pretty certain there was no overreaction in regards to Biggun and Daniel.

They were both banned at the same time as me. So I assume it was for the same events, I can't help feel that Vince's personal bias against Daniel is keeping him banned, especially as Vince told me that he wanted to get him banned.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Rejenorst on January 28, 2013, 12:09:15 pm
We could argue until the cows come home but in my experience everyone screams murder and vendetta when they are at the receiving end of the admin stick regardless of how justified or unjustified the action, hell even my first knee jerk reaction to being at the end of it in other forums is one of indignant outrage and annoyance until I reflect on what I actually did.. and that's still no guarantee I'll see it the admin's way  8) Just the way human nature is, we tend to overlook our own faults in favor of those of others.

In any case I've looked at the moderating boards for all your cases and I can safely say the "reasoning" went beyond mere posts or petty vendettas and was substantiated by more than one person. However given that I do work for FSE my opinion on the subject will most likely not be received without a cry of foul and bias :P

 
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Craig on January 28, 2013, 12:13:17 pm
We could argue until the cows come home but in my experience everyone screams murder and vendetta when they are at the receiving end of the admin stick regardless of how justified or unjustified the action, hell even my first knee jerk reaction to being at the end of it in other forums is one of indignant outrage and annoyance until I reflect on what I actually did.. and that's still no guarantee I'll see it the admin's way  8) Just the way human nature is, we tend to overlook our own faults in favor of those of others.

In any case I've looked at the moderating boards for all your cases and I can safely say the "reasoning" went beyond mere posts or petty vendettas and was substantiated by more than one person. However given that I do work for FSE my opinion on the subject will most likely not be received without a cry of foul and bias :P

 

Okay well thanks for informing me, i tried i guess.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Henry Cadogan on January 28, 2013, 12:15:25 pm
You Hekko. You are the man! Viva la revulution!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Flash on January 28, 2013, 12:36:07 pm
Unmute James Grant!
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Hekko on January 28, 2013, 12:39:09 pm
The fact is I am not trying to make out that the 51st is at fault or anything of the kind, they didn't ask for special treatment to my knowledge. The problem is that with the reasoning they were awarded the honour alot of other people should have been honoured. The whole idea to honour some regiments was stupid though, the height of stupidity was, though how other people are being insulted by being omitted while having contributed just as much as the 51st. Not to mention the poor guy who had his regimental name ripped from him in an overly theatrical manner.

And Rejenorst, you know as well as I do that the likelihod of getting heard. As simple thing such as the buggy sound for pokes/thuds that I ran by you and atleast one of the other devs was still in at launch causing confusion and anger amongst the community.

And people say that there was ways to avoid the scandal, this conveniently circumvents the fact that the culture is that you have to be buddies with Vince to be heard, and you don't become his buddy by voicing dissenting opinions. Accordingly you have a bunch of yesmen at the top that just smile and nod as they are moving from one folly to another, Hancock is a senior member of the administrative team yet he was kept in the dark as far as I know, probably because he is not affraid to speak his mind. The whole community representative thing is as ill adviced as the 51st decision, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. The root of the problem is that Vince isn't answerable to anyone, which will not change with the solution presented. And that is ultimately why this thread had to be here, infront of everyone, Vince and FSE need to have a rude awakening about the fact that they are a business, and as a business they are answerable to the customers who ultimately pay their salary.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Carolus. on January 28, 2013, 12:49:44 pm
I've honestly never had a problem with an admin on the official servers and I'm all for strictness where it is called for. I generally hop on the public servers to relax after my classes, before starting on homework and such, and I'd rather not have to deal with children and/or immature "adults" antagonizing the admins and calling each other derogatory things like fa***t and n****r while I'm doing that. I'd hardly call it heavy handed. Behave on the public servers and you'll be fine. While admittedly I haven't been around as long as some, I've been playing on the official servers for about a year and a half and have yet to be warned by an admin, let alone banned.

My class starts in 5 minutes, so I only have time to respond to this.

The outrage agaisnt the admins in this thread has not been instigated by them banning "Children", as you described them, on the official servers, something, I dare say, a majority of people in here would stand by if it were to happen. No, It is because there has been people that has gotten extreme and unjust punishments for speaking out agaisnt the FSE Team.

+1 Tali
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Harbinger on January 28, 2013, 12:58:05 pm
The fact is I am not trying to make out that the 51st is at fault or anything of the kind, they didn't ask for special treatment to my knowledge. The problem is that with the reasoning they were awarded the honour alot of other people should have been honoured. The whole idea to honour some regiments was stupid though, the height of stupidity was, though how other people are being insulted by being omitted while having contributed just as much as the 51st. Not to mention the poor guy who had his regimental name ripped from him in an overly theatrical manner.

And Rejenorst, you know as well as I do that the likelihod of getting heard. As simple thing such as the buggy sound for pokes/thuds that I ran by you and atleast one of the other devs was still in at launch causing confusion and anger amongst the community.

And people say that there was ways to avoid the scandal, this conveniently circumvents the fact that the culture is that you have to be buddies with Vince to be heard, and you don't become his buddy by voicing dussenting opinions. Accordingly you have a bunch of yesmen at the top that just smile and nod as they are moving from one folly to another, Hancock is a senior member of the administrative team yet he was kept in the dark as far as I know, probably because he is not affraid to speak his mind. The whole community representative thing is as ill adviced as the 51st decision, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. The root of the problem is that Vince isn't answerable to anyone, which will not change with the solution presented. And that is ultimately why this thread had to be here, infront of everyone, Vince and FSE need to have a rude awakening about the fact that they are a business, and as a business they are answerable to the customers who ultimately pay their salary.
How do you know that other regiments are being "omitted" though? Perhaps if they decided to leave and ask for the same honors, they may have just received it.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 28, 2013, 12:59:46 pm
The fact is I am not trying to make out that the 51st is at fault or anything of the kind, they didn't ask for special treatment to my knowledge. The problem is that with the reasoning they were awarded the honour alot of other people should have been honoured. The whole idea to honour some regiments was stupid though, the height of stupidity was, though how other people are being insulted by being omitted while having contributed just as much as the 51st. Not to mention the poor guy who had his regimental name ripped from him in an overly theatrical manner.

And Rejenorst, you know as well as I do that the likelihod of getting heard. As simple thing such as the buggy sound for pokes/thuds that I ran by you and atleast one of the other devs was still in at launch causing confusion and anger amongst the community.

And people say that there was ways to avoid the scandal, this conveniently circumvents the fact that the culture is that you have to be buddies with Vince to be heard, and you don't become his buddy by voicing dussenting opinions. Accordingly you have a bunch of yesmen at the top that just smile and nod as they are moving from one folly to another, Hancock is a senior member of the administrative team yet he was kept in the dark as far as I know, probably because he is not affraid to speak his mind. The whole community representative thing is as ill adviced as the 51st decision, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. The root of the problem is that Vince isn't answerable to anyone, which will not change with the solution presented. And that is ultimately why this thread had to be here, infront of everyone, Vince and FSE need to have a rude awakening about the fact that they are a business, and as a business they are answerable to the customers who ultimately pay their salary.
How do you know that other regiments are being "omitted" though? Perhaps if they decided to leave and ask for the same honors, they may have just received it.

We don't all have Trolafson in our regiment.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Harbinger on January 28, 2013, 01:03:13 pm
The fact is I am not trying to make out that the 51st is at fault or anything of the kind, they didn't ask for special treatment to my knowledge. The problem is that with the reasoning they were awarded the honour alot of other people should have been honoured. The whole idea to honour some regiments was stupid though, the height of stupidity was, though how other people are being insulted by being omitted while having contributed just as much as the 51st. Not to mention the poor guy who had his regimental name ripped from him in an overly theatrical manner.

And Rejenorst, you know as well as I do that the likelihod of getting heard. As simple thing such as the buggy sound for pokes/thuds that I ran by you and atleast one of the other devs was still in at launch causing confusion and anger amongst the community.

And people say that there was ways to avoid the scandal, this conveniently circumvents the fact that the culture is that you have to be buddies with Vince to be heard, and you don't become his buddy by voicing dussenting opinions. Accordingly you have a bunch of yesmen at the top that just smile and nod as they are moving from one folly to another, Hancock is a senior member of the administrative team yet he was kept in the dark as far as I know, probably because he is not affraid to speak his mind. The whole community representative thing is as ill adviced as the 51st decision, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. The root of the problem is that Vince isn't answerable to anyone, which will not change with the solution presented. And that is ultimately why this thread had to be here, infront of everyone, Vince and FSE need to have a rude awakening about the fact that they are a business, and as a business they are answerable to the customers who ultimately pay their salary.
How do you know that other regiments are being "omitted" though? Perhaps if they decided to leave and ask for the same honors, they may have just received it.

We don't all have Trolafson in our regiment.
Irrelevant. There's plenty of other regiments that the FSE and admins recognize as valuable contributors, like the 92nd, 91st or 84e. I don't see why they wouldn't have been given the same honors if they had left the game and an entire shitstorm arose from kids using their names to make bad regiments.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Robin_Hood on January 28, 2013, 01:06:27 pm
The fact is I am not trying to make out that the 51st is at fault or anything of the kind, they didn't ask for special treatment to my knowledge. The problem is that with the reasoning they were awarded the honour alot of other people should have been honoured. The whole idea to honour some regiments was stupid though, the height of stupidity was, though how other people are being insulted by being omitted while having contributed just as much as the 51st. Not to mention the poor guy who had his regimental name ripped from him in an overly theatrical manner.

And Rejenorst, you know as well as I do that the likelihod of getting heard. As simple thing such as the buggy sound for pokes/thuds that I ran by you and atleast one of the other devs was still in at launch causing confusion and anger amongst the community.

And people say that there was ways to avoid the scandal, this conveniently circumvents the fact that the culture is that you have to be buddies with Vince to be heard, and you don't become his buddy by voicing dussenting opinions. Accordingly you have a bunch of yesmen at the top that just smile and nod as they are moving from one folly to another, Hancock is a senior member of the administrative team yet he was kept in the dark as far as I know, probably because he is not affraid to speak his mind. The whole community representative thing is as ill adviced as the 51st decision, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. The root of the problem is that Vince isn't answerable to anyone, which will not change with the solution presented. And that is ultimately why this thread had to be here, infront of everyone, Vince and FSE need to have a rude awakening about the fact that they are a business, and as a business they are answerable to the customers who ultimately pay their salary.
How do you know that other regiments are being "omitted" though? Perhaps if they decided to leave and ask for the same honors, they may have just received it.

We don't all have Trolafson in our regiment.
Irrelevant. There's plenty of other regiments that the FSE and admins recognize as valuable contributors, like the 92nd, 91st or 84e. I don't see why they wouldn't have been given the same honors if they had left the game and an entire shitstorm arose from kids using their names to make bad regiments.

Yes, shit storm from kids using their name and they left the community? Wait? They left the community? Why would they care about it then?
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Craig on January 28, 2013, 01:07:27 pm
There's plenty of bad regiments made anyway but there seems to be some kind of emphasis on a 51st one, when you left the game you gave your name up and that was something you had to acknowledge as part of leaving the community.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Blobmania on January 28, 2013, 01:09:49 pm
This ends now. I'm not seeing this thread devolve into petty squabbles again.

@Robin_Hood, Jackie_Chan - The 51st made significant contributions to the development of NW. At least 60% of the official maps are 51st made, many in-game assets (Including Scene props, Weapons and the like) were made by 51st members doing Freelance work for FSE (Myself having contributed a small part to that), 51st_Spunned developed the FSE website for the release of NW, the 51st were one of the largest groups of beta testers used, and alongside all that two current members of the FSE dev team (and at least two members of their support staff) are 51st members, all of whom spend days of their lives (In some cases free of charge) to improve YOUR gaming experience.

@Harbinger - Stop. You're not making this any easier.

Thread Locked, as was requested several pages ago.
Title: Re: The community deserves better
Post by: Rejenorst on January 28, 2013, 01:13:03 pm
The fact is I am not trying to make out that the 51st is at fault or anything of the kind, they didn't ask for special treatment to my knowledge. The problem is that with the reasoning they were awarded the honour alot of other people should have been honoured. The whole idea to honour some regiments was stupid though, the height of stupidity was, though how other people are being insulted by being omitted while having contributed just as much as the 51st. Not to mention the poor guy who had his regimental name ripped from him in an overly theatrical manner.

Are you 100% certain you actually know how much work they put in? As far as insulted goes, the guys who helped beta test got to play the game before anyone else and will most likely get to do so again with BCOF. Isn't that reward enough to not worry about who gets what?

Quote
And Rejenorst, you know as well as I do that the likelihod of getting heard. As simple thing such as the buggy sound for pokes/thuds that I ran by you and atleast one of the other devs was still in at launch causing confusion and anger amongst the community.

Yes I remember that post and I was curious if we could change it but it wasn't possible at the time given time constraints and there was still a number of issues that needed to be sorted out with TW. While it would have been great to have all these issues fixed from the get-go this is not always possible, but at which point did you think no one had heard you? Just because it wasn't fixed on demand doesn't mean everyone ignored you.

EDIT: Sorry Blob, ninja'd delete post if you want.