Poll

What do you think should happen if cav jump onto an infantry who is crouching and bracing their bayonet directly at the horse

The horse should die as it has made contact with the bayonette ( This does not happen in game )
57 (76%)
The horse should live either clear the infantry or knock over the infantry(This already happens in game)
18 (24%)

Total Members Voted: 72

Author Topic: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?  (Read 13940 times)

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Offline KingOscar

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2014, 12:51:56 am »
Pepper is right: let us change the game to correct bad tactics.

Offline Coconut

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2014, 10:19:55 am »
Watching Coconut's video, I can see several areas for improvement in tactics.
  • The line fired too early - you only have time for one shot before the cav hits. Wait until they are just close enough that you have time to fire and switch to melee. This will make the initial volley much more effective. Also aim for the horses. They are an easier target to hit and dismounted cav is practically as good as a kill.
  • The formation has to0 much space inside the square - forming a circle approximately two men deep with very little open space in the middle eliminates the ability of cav to jump into the circle and still be able to maneuver. Anti-cav formations need to be about every covering the backs of everyone else.
  • No one should be crouching. Being able to move to dodge a horse or lance or to return a stab is very important. The braced musket from crouch is too short to be useful and very limited as moving even slightly breaks the brace.
  • What is most vital is to always be able to maneuver but at the same time keep the formation as tight as possible. Good cav rarekt attacks an infantry man that sees them and is ready to block or stab, they instead maneuver and circle until they have a target that is unaware they are there. Good anti-cav formations try to minimize the number of soldiers whose blind spots are exposed to horses.
On point 3, I find it very sad that crouching and bracing bayonets against cav is the most useless thing to do if they jump over an entire wall in a square. So I would say either nerf horse jumping or buff Braced bayonets in NW to fix this.

Offline Bear

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2014, 11:27:24 pm »
Watching Coconut's video, I can see several areas for improvement in tactics.
  • The line fired too early - you only have time for one shot before the cav hits. Wait until they are just close enough that you have time to fire and switch to melee. This will make the initial volley much more effective. Also aim for the horses. They are an easier target to hit and dismounted cav is practically as good as a kill.
  • The formation has to0 much space inside the square - forming a circle approximately two men deep with very little open space in the middle eliminates the ability of cav to jump into the circle and still be able to maneuver. Anti-cav formations need to be about every covering the backs of everyone else.
  • No one should be crouching. Being able to move to dodge a horse or lance or to return a stab is very important. The braced musket from crouch is too short to be useful and very limited as moving even slightly breaks the brace.
  • What is most vital is to always be able to maneuver but at the same time keep the formation as tight as possible. Good cav rarekt attacks an infantry man that sees them and is ready to block or stab, they instead maneuver and circle until they have a target that is unaware they are there. Good anti-cav formations try to minimize the number of soldiers whose blind spots are exposed to horses.
On point 3, I find it very sad that crouching and bracing bayonets against cav is the most useless thing to do if they jump over an entire wall in a square. So I would say either nerf horse jumping or buff Braced bayonets in NW to fix this.
Anti Cav formations are meant to destroy cav but not without the initial challenge, anti cav is all about team work you have to watch each others back and call things out for others we can't just and you the dead PLG on a silver platter (Only saying PLG cause its the only NA cav regiment I can think of at the time) Teamwork is the foundation of most tactics and thats why the PLG works well together, you don't have to worry bout one guy cause the guy riding behind you will get him plus in my opinion you should attack cav rather than wait braced because you have little to no time to turn a brace while cavalry charges

Offline Rataca100

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2014, 11:57:49 am »
just in case its not been said before wouldn't killing a horse jumping at you mean the horse will crush you even if it is dead. Its ok as it is if you stand up and stab i think you can kill the horses. The video is of a film of the battle of Waterloo to my knowledge i have seen that in another video. renactors tend to do things right drill wise. :P
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 12:01:07 pm by Rataca100 »

Offline Duuring

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2014, 01:19:40 pm »
The entire idea of a cavalry square is that the horse will simply refuse to ride into it.

Offline Riddlez

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2014, 04:45:10 pm »
The entire idea of a cavalry square is that the horse will simply refuse to ride into it.

Does it seriously have such an amazing impact on the horse? I mean, you couldn't force a horse to do such a thing?

Well, I am aware you can't, otherwise there wouldn't be a cavsquare, but, how does the horse recognise a bayonet-wall as a threat?
I mean, the horse shouldn't really know the concept of a bayonet, right?
Probably one of the very few old-timers here who hasn't been a regimental leader.

Offline TheZach_Attack

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2014, 04:47:08 pm »
Horses have feelings 2

Offline Ody

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2014, 03:58:15 am »
I think it has something to do with the willingness of the rider

Offline TheZach_Attack

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2014, 04:06:46 am »
nop

Offline Moldplayer

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2014, 04:29:16 am »
The entire idea of a cavalry square is that the horse will simply refuse to ride into it.

Does it seriously have such an amazing impact on the horse? I mean, you couldn't force a horse to do such a thing?
Horses in the end are flight animals, and will gennerally avoid something in its way, weather it be stone wall or trusty bayonet. Cavalry on their own would very rarely break a square, but it did happen a few times during the Napoleonic wars if a downed horse slammed into the square, or if a inexpirenced unit broke under the pressure.

But back on topic. I do wish that musket bracing was a thing for historical RP reasons (:P) but unfortuantly it is not so. I was wondering lately if a mod could add a feature where the musket has a small area to the left and right of him that causes the horse to rear up or even shy away.

Though to be honest the cavalry in game do have ridiculus turning speed/maneuverability but whatever.
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Offline Thunderstormer

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2014, 05:09:11 am »
There was/is a way to turn on horse bucking from bayonets like it use to be.  It did require the cav to charge head on into bayonets though and the person has to stab for it to work.  You probably could mod it so braced bayonets made cav buck.

I actually preferred this as cav but if someone was to put this back in, they would have to redo cav balance imo.  Heavy cav is already weak enough as is.
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Offline Moldplayer

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2014, 11:37:47 pm »
Haha I can remember the big spat done by the cavalry players against the bucking  ;D
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Offline Bluehawk

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2014, 12:25:11 am »
You only need to be dense and presenting your bayonets to discourage horses and riders, a line or column could accomplish that. The purpose of the square as a shape itself is that the riders can not encircle you, and the right-angles are preferable over a circle or oval because it's easier to arrange each side in multiple ranks and ensure equal spacing between men. A disadvantage lay in the corners, but in the early to mid-18th century these had gaps with regimental artillery deployed, in which case the cavalry that tried to breach the corner would face a blast of canister.

In the Russo-Turkish War of 1806-1812, Turkish cavalry was so plentiful and speedy, that the Russians actually on occasion marched from place to place in square - essentially a line, followed by two columns, and line again in the rear. If sudden contact was made, the front would hold, the columns would perform a quarter-face, and the rear line did an about-face. Na ruku! - Charge your bayonets! Show me a video of an NW regiment doing that, and I might start playing again.

Offline regwilliam

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2014, 10:28:46 pm »
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iYQCzl5QXw&index=6&list=UUHwnDe4cpih-74Nnt5PH3ig[/youtube]

Offline Walko

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Re: Anti-Cav Squares exploit?
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2014, 04:10:55 pm »
The entire idea of a cavalry square is that the horse will simply refuse to ride into it.

Does it seriously have such an amazing impact on the horse? I mean, you couldn't force a horse to do such a thing?

Well, I am aware you can't, otherwise there wouldn't be a cavsquare, but, how does the horse recognise a bayonet-wall as a threat?
I mean, the horse shouldn't really know the concept of a bayonet, right?

Horses aren't going to run headlong into a large pointy mass. Animals tend to not like slamming into objects regardless.
Pointy stick champion