Poll

How do you want this patch to be applied?

The melee patch should be applied to the game with the next patch.
21 (37.5%)
The melee patch should only be used as server files so it can be chosen whether used or not.
11 (19.6%)
We don't want a melee patch.
24 (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 54

Author Topic: Competitive Community Melee Patch  (Read 7446 times)

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Offline Herishey

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Competitive Community Melee Patch
« on: August 31, 2017, 12:51:47 pm »


Competitive Community Melee Patch



This is idea to make changes to melee component of the gameplay, mostly for competitive scene. Goal of the patch is to minimize randomness and maximize skill cap, so that melee is about skill not luck. Currently we have a few ideas regarding only bayonet vs bayonet scenario, cavalry changes can of course be added as well. This patch would be either applied to the main game with the upcoming patch if FSE would agree or be just patch that could be used on servers for competitive purposes, though that might cause community to be divided.


Ideas:


I. Bayonet vs Bayonet

1. Fixing pokes
No-one knows for sure if anything can be done with pokes. Problem is they are very random and can easily turn around the fight. Ideally goal is to stabilize pokes, like they are mostly in Native, but sadly most realistic option is to completely remove them which isn't that great but it might be still better than having random pokes.

2. Slightly decreasing downstab's range
There are two reasons for that. Until September 2012 upstab and downstab had same range and same speed, than there was a patch that made upstab longer and downstab faster, I imagine that animations were adjusted to the changes. Though there seems to be slight disparity between animation of downstab and it's actual range, so-called ghost range. Second reason is that downstab seems to be a bit overpowered. Downstab spam with addition of backpedaling is very annoying to deal with and quite easy to perform (though I'm not saying it takes no skill). In ranging battle downstab usually wins against upstab because speed buff was greater than upstab's lenght buff. If the range on downstab is decreased it will still stay dominant stab as it's higher speed makes chambers harder to react to. How much downstab's range should be decreased? Maybe only to fit the animation and lose it's ghost range.

3. Less tanky units
There are multiple ways of making that happen. Either make units have less health and proportionally decrease damage on ranged weapons so there is no difference regarding ranged damage OR increase damage on all melee weapons. Reason for this change is that stabs often do random damage and player can tank 5 stabs and then kills you in one stab. Of course it is known which stabs usually will do a lot of damage (long range stabs, moving forward) and which less (close range stabs, moving backwards), but there is still a lot of random moments like stabs that should kill but don't (upstab in the head from the medium range) and stabs that kill and shouldn't (downstab in the legs from maximum range while moving backwards). Of course unit's should be able to get killed to fast since getting killed with one blockchamber that can't be defended against is not fair. Idea is to decrease tankyness for about 25%.

4. Kick Hitboxes
There's a really annoying glitch with hitboxes when an enemy is stabbed/kicked there is a certain amount of time where you can't stab him because your stab will go straight through his hitbox and into the guy behind him, probably should do something about that if it is possible to fix it. The hitbox is there but it kinda warps / lags behind.

Video Evidence
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These are the ideas we currently. Everyone is welcome to share their ideas, opinions and participate in making the patch, someone with knowledge of the game's code is needed.




Competitive Community Melee Patch Team:

- Herishey, Head of the project, Bayonet Melee Theory and Practice Expert
- McPero, Bayonet Melee Theory Expert

[close]

Your beloved rapper Herichey
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 04:22:50 pm by Herishey »
I won lots of things, I came 2nd and 3rd in lots of things, I guess I did some other shit too........ I'm also an FSE legend, probably most commonly described as a cunt. If the shit I do doesn't make sense in your head, well fuck you because it makes sense in mine.

Which i did, against known and reputed player, some of them considered legend, such as, Mandarin, Ledger, Tiberias, Herishey, Hokej, Troister, Axiom, Evanovic, Stark, Eddie, Jammo, Bagins, Freddie, Python. I didn't had a good relationship with most of them, but i congratulate them for what they did, and i had pleasure facing them.

Offline Herishey

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2017, 12:51:54 pm »
If anyone else wants to get involved with this then please let myself or McWeebo know, as we mentioned we will need someone with more knowledge of coding to tell us what is and isn't possible as well.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 12:56:14 pm by Herishey »
I won lots of things, I came 2nd and 3rd in lots of things, I guess I did some other shit too........ I'm also an FSE legend, probably most commonly described as a cunt. If the shit I do doesn't make sense in your head, well fuck you because it makes sense in mine.

Which i did, against known and reputed player, some of them considered legend, such as, Mandarin, Ledger, Tiberias, Herishey, Hokej, Troister, Axiom, Evanovic, Stark, Eddie, Jammo, Bagins, Freddie, Python. I didn't had a good relationship with most of them, but i congratulate them for what they did, and i had pleasure facing them.

Offline Knightmare

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2017, 01:00:19 pm »
Remove chambers.

Offline Herishey

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 01:01:41 pm »
I think the majority of competitive players would highly disagree with that.
I won lots of things, I came 2nd and 3rd in lots of things, I guess I did some other shit too........ I'm also an FSE legend, probably most commonly described as a cunt. If the shit I do doesn't make sense in your head, well fuck you because it makes sense in mine.

Which i did, against known and reputed player, some of them considered legend, such as, Mandarin, Ledger, Tiberias, Herishey, Hokej, Troister, Axiom, Evanovic, Stark, Eddie, Jammo, Bagins, Freddie, Python. I didn't had a good relationship with most of them, but i congratulate them for what they did, and i had pleasure facing them.

Tournesol

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2017, 01:16:34 pm »
Remove chambers.

it will decrease the skill gap.

Offline Herishey

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2017, 01:37:31 pm »
Of course any further suggestions are appreciated if anyone has one.
I won lots of things, I came 2nd and 3rd in lots of things, I guess I did some other shit too........ I'm also an FSE legend, probably most commonly described as a cunt. If the shit I do doesn't make sense in your head, well fuck you because it makes sense in mine.

Which i did, against known and reputed player, some of them considered legend, such as, Mandarin, Ledger, Tiberias, Herishey, Hokej, Troister, Axiom, Evanovic, Stark, Eddie, Jammo, Bagins, Freddie, Python. I didn't had a good relationship with most of them, but i congratulate them for what they did, and i had pleasure facing them.

Offline Fwuffy

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2017, 01:57:54 pm »
poke one is good

Offline Nero_

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2017, 02:29:49 pm »
Remove chambers.
so people like hokej can have their fun with 30 minute duels, good memesssss

Haze

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2017, 03:12:33 pm »
2. Slightly decreasing downstab's range
The problem is that you don't know if the "ghost range" is actually a bug or only the result of the range variable itself (on the code).
Without that information, i just can't agree with decreasing downstab's range, you should remove this until you know.

Other than that, i found the actual system good enough not to be changed until we know more on what i said before, thats why :

 "In ranging battle downstab usually wins against upstab" Upstab is widely used as the main range stab for a good reason, and second the difference is so short that it doesn't really make sense, upstab or downstab its about factors like angle,timing per exemple that really make the difference and I'm fairly sure thats what the devs wanted, a system where you can actually win range with either Down or Up stab still with a little advantage to upstab.

So the "in ranging battle the downstab usually win" argument doesn't work for me.

Is the Ghost Range always happenning ? i don't think so, it must be a thing that happens sometime, in short : a bug, not directly the downstab range you know. If true it would not be smart then to decrease the range of downstabs, that could unbalance the actual melee, you will tell me downstab is already dominating but only in close and mid range, if you decrease the range, even slightly it would  be even more difficult than it is today to feint at long distance and make the upstab dominating in mid range.

In fact its already viable to rely a lot on mid-range upstab for people that have good footwork, so make change slightly could make it more than viable. Frankly if that happen it will make the melee slower, because the upstab is slower and often used by cancer players to not get chambered easily, also making melee slower and upstab better also helps those that rely on blocks only.
Also remember a key thing, "stab range only matters at long distance"

Whatever the range is, on nw as long as one of the weapons is faster, physically, starting from a x position it will impact the first against a more ranged one. So if you dislike the downstab domination (as a regular mid-close stab, not as a range stab), like the reverse stab on native, you need to decrease it speed, but do we want to decrease it speed ? it has created a good, variant and well known meta.
You can't reduce speed without making napoleonic war melee more casual and simple, it's already mocked by native players, no need to make it worse  :)

I recommend you not going any further about "decreasing downstab's range" until you know more of the code.

"Though there seems to be slight disparity between animation of downstab and it's actual range, so-called ghost range."  That is true, but like i said we need to know more about what cause that.

I'd say what downstab need is an animation fix for the Ghost-Range problem that i believe is a bug that need conditions to occur (not related to the stab range), more accuracy (that fit with animation) is welcome the rest doesn't seem neccessary.

1. Fixing pokes
Why not, seems good, but lets making it clear that we prefer poke to be more logical and realist than totally removed if possible, a lot of people dislike poke but we all love the game mechanics of NW and Warband, the mechanics are the soul of the game (at least most of it, you know, the directional melee we like it, challenging skills ect...), but the Warband Physic its like Einstein theory of relativity, it has predicted pokes to exist,  like Black Hole, it is normal for pokes to exist in a logical melee system where the faster and stronger your stab impact the more damage it does the slower and weaker it impact the less damage it does than can go as much as no damage so then poke (on the paper...), removing pokes would be a bit of treason to the original warband soul, so lets not remove it if we can find a better solution for poke to be more realistic so then fair.
This was more for others people than you herishey.

Remove chambers.
You do that, you make hokej not far from being godlike in being a inviolable blocking machine.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 03:22:33 pm by Drake »

Offline Herishey

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2017, 03:26:41 pm »
Most of the idea's were McPero's I just posted them, the one that is the biggest issue for me is making pokes more stable and less random.
I won lots of things, I came 2nd and 3rd in lots of things, I guess I did some other shit too........ I'm also an FSE legend, probably most commonly described as a cunt. If the shit I do doesn't make sense in your head, well fuck you because it makes sense in mine.

Which i did, against known and reputed player, some of them considered legend, such as, Mandarin, Ledger, Tiberias, Herishey, Hokej, Troister, Axiom, Evanovic, Stark, Eddie, Jammo, Bagins, Freddie, Python. I didn't had a good relationship with most of them, but i congratulate them for what they did, and i had pleasure facing them.

Offline Ambiguous

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2017, 03:29:46 pm »
Agreed with every single point you made Herishey.

And Knightmare removing chambers would decrease the skill cap so much this game might actually die.

Offline Herishey

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2017, 03:31:27 pm »
As I mentioned McPero was the idea master mainly, I just adapted them slightly to make them more reasonable, but I do thing if each of the points are taken into account it could improve the competitive scene, personally though as opposed to changing the game for everyone I think it'd be better as a server file so people have the option.
I won lots of things, I came 2nd and 3rd in lots of things, I guess I did some other shit too........ I'm also an FSE legend, probably most commonly described as a cunt. If the shit I do doesn't make sense in your head, well fuck you because it makes sense in mine.

Which i did, against known and reputed player, some of them considered legend, such as, Mandarin, Ledger, Tiberias, Herishey, Hokej, Troister, Axiom, Evanovic, Stark, Eddie, Jammo, Bagins, Freddie, Python. I didn't had a good relationship with most of them, but i congratulate them for what they did, and i had pleasure facing them.

Offline Ambiguous

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2017, 03:33:31 pm »
As I mentioned McPero was the idea master mainly, I just adapted them slightly to make them more reasonable, but I do thing if each of the points are taken into account it could improve the competitive scene, personally though as opposed to changing the game for everyone I think it'd be better as a server file so people have the option.
I'd think it would be best if we all played with the same patch for melee, otherwise that would create a divide between the regiments.

Offline Herishey

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2017, 03:36:17 pm »
As I mentioned McPero was the idea master mainly, I just adapted them slightly to make them more reasonable, but I do thing if each of the points are taken into account it could improve the competitive scene, personally though as opposed to changing the game for everyone I think it'd be better as a server file so people have the option.
I'd think it would be best if we all played with the same patch for melee, otherwise that would create a divide between the regiments.
It would just depend on how people approached it, it would be no different to for example all the scripts that the gf server uses compared to a linebattle server.
I won lots of things, I came 2nd and 3rd in lots of things, I guess I did some other shit too........ I'm also an FSE legend, probably most commonly described as a cunt. If the shit I do doesn't make sense in your head, well fuck you because it makes sense in mine.

Which i did, against known and reputed player, some of them considered legend, such as, Mandarin, Ledger, Tiberias, Herishey, Hokej, Troister, Axiom, Evanovic, Stark, Eddie, Jammo, Bagins, Freddie, Python. I didn't had a good relationship with most of them, but i congratulate them for what they did, and i had pleasure facing them.

Haze

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Re: Competitive Community Melee Patch
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2017, 03:43:54 pm »
Agreed with every single point you made Herishey.

And Knightmare removing chambers would decrease the skill cap so much this game might actually die.
Really
I strongly suggest you and everyone to read between the lines instead of agreeing with sympathic titles that everyone agrees on, and understand the change that would happen, i'm not that surprised mcpero proposed that, but the less tanky unit part could legit ruin the game, illuminati ? he might want to finish the game sooner for us all  ;)